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Rek Seven Probe Patrol Project Wildfire 483	Posted - 2012.11.29 17:12:00 - [1] - Quote What do you think the future holds for wormhole space? I think that when/if CCP improve player owned structures and their security/access settings, recruitment will be less restrictive and corporations in w-space will grow... Maybe to the extent that small gang pvp becomes a rarity. As new groups/corps move into w-space, the more experienced players will probably move to higher class wormholes and after much fighting, we could see massive coalitions forming that control the majority of C5GÇÖs and C6GÇÖs. This could result in an OTEC situation with the 3 digit gases, which would give these coalitions massive power. Jump forward a year or so and maybe CCP decide that they want the null and WH powers to fight each other, so the release an expansion that gives wormholers the ability to jump to specific null sec system. So yeah, day dream over... Where do you think things are heading? They see me trolling, they hating...
Rroff The Xenodus Initiative. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork 63	Posted - 2012.11.29 17:44:00 - [2] - Quote Mass limits will reduce the potential for blobbing in straight up fights to a degree and even with increased recruitment no one rushes to do POS bashes in a WH :P (and in the long term its generally counter-productive - 9/10 POS bashes in WH space are down to either someone smacktalking/generally being a jerk or 100% carebear corps that duck out of every fight even when they have the numbers online and active to feasibly fight). It might mean C5 space becomes busier but afaik theres quite a lot of room there to take more people in - off the top of my head only something like 1 in 6 C5 system is properly "settled" - will make it a lot harder to run sites uninterrupted but thats only really a problem for 100% carebears. I don't really see CCP giving wormhole space that much attention for the foreseable future beyond things like POS updates as far as the core mechanics go its one of the least broken parts of eve.
Aducat Ragnarson Cult of the Black Goat Dark Taboo 26	Posted - 2012.11.29 17:44:00 - [3] - Quote The Pos changes will result in stationfights and stationcamping and with the reduction of every major ISK farm w-space is sure be nerfed. also T3s will be nerfed into oblivion. This will make w-space a lot more like 0.0 but with harder logistics and less income, which in turn will drive away the old wormhole players and remove any incentive for newer players to join wormholes instead of going the 0.0 way. In the end we will be left with a largely empty w-space with the odd solitary player confined in C4-C4 holes who bitches about "the olden days" when "everything was so much better". Every kind of PvP will die and it will be even worse than large OTEC coalitions. EDIT: Ok, so far we have: -Everything will be ruined by giant coalitions -Everything will stay exactly the same -Everything will be ruined by emptiness
Casirio DEEP-SPACE CO-OP LTD Exhale. 153	Posted - 2012.11.29 17:48:00 - [4] - Quote wow you guys are pretty grim im gonna still be blowing **** up!
Rroff The Xenodus Initiative. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork 63	Posted - 2012.11.29 17:56:00 - [5] - Quote Aducat Ragnarson wrote: The Pos changes will result in stationfights and stationcamping and with the reduction of every major ISK farm w-space is sure be nerfed. also T3s will be nerfed into oblivion. Forgot about this - if these changes come into play its gonna gut WH space rather than enhance it - almost all the casual and smaller corps will leave if theres the potential for being camped into their own station on a daily basis.
Daniel Plain Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 454	Posted - 2012.11.29 19:38:00 - [6] - Quote Rek Seven wrote: What do you think the future holds for wormhole space? I think that when/if CCP improve player owned structures and their security/access settings, recruitment will be less restrictive and corporations in w-space will grow... Maybe to the extent that small gang pvp becomes a rarity. As new groups/corps move into w-space, the more experienced players will probably move to higher class wormholes and after much fighting, we could see massive coalitions forming that control the majority of C5GÇÖs and C6GÇÖs. This could result in an OTEC situation with the 3 digit gases, which would give these coalitions massive power. Jump forward a year or so and maybe CCP decide that they want the null and WH powers to fight each other, so the release an expansion that gives wormholers the ability to jump to specific null sec system. So yeah, day dream over... Where do you think things are heading? i do not think your analysis is accurate. for one thing, small-ish gang pvp is enforced by mass limitations. you can only get so many caps and support into your static, even if it's a c6->c6. which leads us to the second point. massive coalitions are only useful when you need to cover vulnerability. this will not be the case, as more and more wormhole systems will amass enough firepower inside to easily defend against anything that could come out of an incoming WH. to seriously attack a reinforced system, you would have to rotate your static till you get lucky several times. otherwise, you just won't be able to bring enough hulls inside to keep up the attack on the enemy POSes. the only dangers for highly reinforced systems will be sabotage and member burnout. as for gas monopoly: i do not have the exact numbers but my guess is that the booster market is much much smaller than the T2 market. therefore it is not likely that the big entities (even if they would arise) would bother with a cartel agreement. my own predictions depend very much on the fate of T3s. personally, i do not believe that T3s will be nerfed significantly. the versatility argument that T3 opponents usually bring does not hold, except in very few situations where people do not have a semisafe station or POS to hold a few significantly cheaper specialized ships. therefore, T3s need to stay what they are now: most powerful in their class/role but also most expensive. if CCP agrees with this assessment, nothing much will change except for what i described above. the major powers will harden their grip on their home systems and keep harassing each other and smaller powers in lower-class holes. if by some unfortunate stroke of luck, wormhole life becomes less fortunate, beit by a nerd to T3s or a direct nerf to blue sleeper loot, w-space will become less and less populated until a new equilibrium is found where more carebears move in for mining and PI, whereas the PVP corp count goes slightly down. most PVPers will remain though, as someone will have to collect the tears of said carebears. "I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF
Rroff The Xenodus Initiative. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork 63	Posted - 2012.11.29 19:49:00 - [7] - Quote Daniel Plain wrote: massive coalitions are only useful when you need to cover vulnerability. this will not be the case, as more and more wormhole systems will amass enough firepower inside to easily defend against anything that could come out of an incoming WH. to seriously attack a reinforced system, you would have to rotate your static till you get lucky several times. otherwise, you just won't be able to bring enough hulls inside to keep up the attack on the enemy POSes. the only dangers for highly reinforced systems will be sabotage and member burnout. Yeah while growing alliances and coalitions would allow them to project more power the mass limits will still help to balance it out - the alliance I'm in has attacked other entities with built up systems by exploiting holes in their active periods to sneak ships in over several days but with more numbers active inside those holes the chances of getting stuff in undetected is much slimmer and more capable of dealing with the relatively small number you can get in at any one time.
Gnaw LF AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse 229	Posted - 2012.11.29 20:35:00 - [8] - Quote Rek Seven wrote: What do you think the future holds for wormhole space? I think that when/if CCP improve player owned structures and their security/access settings, recruitment will be less restrictive and corporations in w-space will grow... Maybe to the extent that small gang pvp becomes a rarity. As new groups/corps move into w-space, the more experienced players will probably move to higher class wormholes and after much fighting, we could see massive coalitions forming that control the majority of C5GÇÖs and C6GÇÖs. This could result in an OTEC situation with the 3 digit gases, which would give these coalitions massive power. Jump forward a year or so and maybe CCP decide that they want the null and WH powers to fight each other, so the release an expansion that gives wormholers the ability to jump to specific null sec system. So yeah, day dream over... Where do you think things are heading? Ok the way I see it you have limited experience of w-space. None of the things you listed WILL EVER HAPPEN. I dont know what sort of coalition you need in order to control 500+ C5s and 100+ C6s. Also, who would be willing to live in all the horrible C5s, the ones that open into lower class w-space or, god forbid, c4s or the ones that have Black Hole effect. Ugh. As far as I am aware all the large / notable / successful w-space entities have their POS security setup pretty well. The limited amount of recruits you see coming into w-space is not because we are hesitant to recruit potential thieves, its because we are trying to recruit active and experienced players. I am of the STRONG opinion that we do not need POS changes except a few minor tweaks such as, swapping out subsystems on Tech 3 ships, ability to repackage in CHAs and the ability to fit out ships through the Fitting menu when using our SMA / CHA combo.
Derath Ellecon Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal 461	Posted - 2012.11.29 20:44:00 - [9] - Quote Honestly it is so early I find it hard to figure out what to think. The only thing we seem to know with a fair amount of certainty is that the POS shield will go. It has seemed pretty clear from a developers standpoint that it causes too many technical issues. What we don't know is pretty much everything else. For one, I'm not certain we will have constant station camps. For one thing, we get camps in HS and LS and NPC 0.0 now, but that is largely because the campers only have to deal with anemic NPC station guns. I don't know about SOV outposts so I wont say. So this will depend on defenses. If the new POS system is more defendable, it may make POS gunners more viable, and easier to thwart a station camp. How much fun would it be to have some T3's camping your pos. You log in your gunners. without local they won't necessarily see them log in. And without local even if they have you on a watchlist they won't know if you are a pos gunner. Then blammo!. I'm sure i could think of other examples, but you get the idea. Either way I don't think it is a Sky is falling situation just yet.
Acac Sunflyier Burning Star L.L.C. 268	Posted - 2012.11.29 21:32:00 - [10] - Quote Honestly, I don't foresee wormhole space changing all that much. Only changes to wormhole space will be features that affect eve as a whole, such as poses, rather than wormholes specifically. Maybe the music change will give wormholes their own specific music set. There just isn't anything intresting on the front page of the GD anymore. Yawn!
District Jr Lost World Compagny Talocan United 0	Posted - 2012.11.30 00:50:00 - [11] - Quote Daniel Plain wrote: as for gas monopoly: i do not have the exact numbers but my guess is that the booster market is much much smaller than the T2 market. therefore it is not likely that the big entities (even if they would arise) would bother with a cartel agreement. I think your mistaking WH gas with K-space gas. WH gas is only used in T3 industry; no other type of gas sites will spawn. If you control the C320 and C540 extraction (which is impossible with the number of C5s and C6s) then you control T3 prices.
Rek Seven Probe Patrol Project Wildfire 483	Posted - 2012.11.30 01:09:00 - [12] - Quote Gnaw LF wrote: Ok the way I see it you have limited experience of w-space. None of the things you listed WILL EVER HAPPEN. I dont know what sort of coalition you need in order to control 500+ C5s and 100+ C6s. Also, who would be willing to live in all the horrible C5s, the ones that open into lower class w-space or, god forbid, c4s or the ones that have Black Hole effect. Ugh. As far as I am aware all the large / notable / successful w-space entities have their POS security setup pretty well. The limited amount of recruits you see coming into w-space is not because we are hesitant to recruit potential thieves, its because we are trying to recruit active and experienced players. I am of the STRONG opinion that we do not need POS changes except a few minor tweaks such as, swapping out subsystems on Tech 3 ships, ability to repackage in CHAs and the ability to fit out ships through the Fitting menu when using our SMA / CHA combo. I know enough to feel comfortable talking about it but admittedly i have never lived in a C5 or C6 wormhole, nor have i done much in the way of T3 manufacture. Are you saying that if several of the large entities grouped together that they would NEVER be able to affect/manipulate the T3 market? Like it or not the POS system is being reworked, probably in a way that will have a massively affect on wormhole pvp tactics. But until ccp give us specifics, it's anyone guess how things will turn out. They see me trolling, they hating...
Daniel Plain Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 454	Posted - 2012.11.30 03:15:00 - [13] - Quote tbh, i cannot imagine that the 'new' poses will behave much differently than the current ones, at least not with regard to sieges. you will probably still be able to deploy defenses, turrets and ECM which means you will be able to keep small groups of attackers at bay. and as i stated earlier, there is a glass ceiling on how big the attacking group can get because of mass limitations, so there is no need to form large coalitions. "I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF
Oxandrolone Bite Me inc Bitten. 64	Posted - 2012.11.30 03:59:00 - [14] - Quote Huge coalitions already exist in high class wormholes. In the future large alliances will continue to fortify their citadel wormholes with more and more capitals :)
Chitsa Jason DEEP-SPACE CO-OP LTD Exhale. 171	Posted - 2012.11.30 10:36:00 - [15] - Quote I think future of W-space depends on the way the new POS system is going to be implemented. The way I see it at the moment is: If it is going to be ministation with no ability to collect information from Dscan then most of thrill of wspace will be gone. There will be occasional POS (cough station) camps. Some capital or tengu ganks but thats about it. Small/medium fleet fights will be mostly gone due to inability to collect intel and react or counteract. W-space corporations will adapt and start roaming null and low sec more. They will use their wspace systems as base of ops for isk making and ship storage.
Efraya DEEP-SPACE CO-OP LTD Exhale. 134	Posted - 2012.11.30 11:21:00 - [16] - Quote Chitsa Jason wrote: If it is going to be ministation with no ability to collect information from Dscan then most of thrill of wspace will be gone. There will be occasional POS (cough station) camps. Some capital or tengu ganks but thats about it. Small/medium fleet fights will be mostly gone due to inability to collect intel and react or counteract. It's going to be hilariously ** if this is going to be what happens... WSpace; Best space.**
TheGunslinger42 Bite Me inc Bitten. 567	Posted - 2012.11.30 12:02:00 - [17] - Quote Efraya wrote: Chitsa Jason wrote: If it is going to be ministation with no ability to collect information from Dscan then most of thrill of wspace will be gone. There will be occasional POS (cough station) camps. Some capital or tengu ganks but thats about it. Small/medium fleet fights will be mostly gone due to inability to collect intel and react or counteract. It's going to be hilariously **** if this is going to be what happens... dont worry to liven it up they'll allow mass-control on wormholes so we can bring in supers and keep holes open for seven days
Rek Seven Probe Patrol Project Wildfire 483	Posted - 2012.11.30 12:14:00 - [18] - Quote Daniel Plain wrote: tbh, i cannot imagine that the 'new' poses will behave much differently than the current ones, at least not with regard to sieges. you will probably still be able to deploy defenses, turrets and ECM which means you will be able to keep small groups of attackers at bay. and as i stated earlier, there is a glass ceiling on how big the attacking group can get because of mass limitations, so there is no need to form large coalitions. If CCP remove force fields it will mean that pos bashing can be done with close range, high dps setups. If a 20-30 T3 fleet can come into your system for a fight and then bash your pos with the same fleet, this drastically change the way we operate in w-space. Mass limits are not as restrictive as you make out. All a group has to do is amass a large enough force to control the wormhole entrance, and then they can bring in what they want. They see me trolling, they hating...
Aducat Ragnarson Cult of the Black Goat Dark Taboo 27	Posted - 2012.11.30 13:46:00 - [19] - Quote Rek Seven wrote: ... If CCP remove force fields it will mean that pos bashing can be done with close range, high dps setups. If a 20-30 T3 fleet can come into your system for a fight and then bash your pos with the same fleet, this drastically change the way we operate in w-space. ... In that case, we might see short range high dps deathstars rise in use. No Pos can really be defended against a fleet that sets out to destroy that Pos specifically, so it might become more usefull to have the Pos defended against regular roaming gangs instead.
Gnaw LF AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse 234	Posted - 2012.11.30 16:48:00 - [20] - Quote Rek Seven wrote: I know enough to feel comfortable talking about it but admittedly i have never lived in a C5 or C6 wormhole, nor have i done much in the way of T3 manufacture. Are you saying that if several of the large entities grouped together that they would NEVER be able to affect/manipulate the T3 market? Like it or not the POS system is being reworked, probably in a way that will have a massively affect on wormhole pvp tactics. It's nice that you recruit experienced players but not every one thinks like you or cares about good fights... But until ccp give us specifics, it's anyone guess how things will turn out. Correct, even if you find a coalition that can control most of C5s, they will not be able to control them 24/7 and someone sooner of later will sneak in and mine the gas. That is considering that this giant coalition will be able to COMPLETELY control their own ranks, even pilots in big alliances need ISK and need to replace their ships, trying to hold them from mining gas is going to be difficult and cause drama. In the end the largest entities in w-space do think mostly like I do and they do actively seek good fights, that is why you will never see a mega coalition, oh there might be a temporary one to evict some null sec alliances but after the deed is done we always go back to shooting each other.
Gnaw LF AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse 237	Posted - 2012.11.30 16:53:00 - [21] - Quote Chitsa Jason wrote: I think future of W-space depends on the way the new POS system is going to be implemented. The way I see it at the moment is: If it is going to be ministation with no ability to collect information from Dscan then most of thrill of wspace will be gone. There will be occasional POS (cough station) camps. Some capital or tengu ganks but thats about it. Small/medium fleet fights will be mostly gone due to inability to collect intel and react or counteract. W-space corporations will adapt and start roaming null and low sec more. They will use their wspace systems as base of ops for isk making and ship storage. Sadly I concur, if the FF is gone and we can't d-scan to gather intel it will mean having eyes on each POS in order to see what is "berthed" at it. Then there is also talk about having multiple POSes on grid, and having the ability to drop em not just on moons but also in deadspace. As I see it, opening into the system, dropping probes to find the enemy POS "city" and then getting eyes on every POS will be detrimental to w-space and the "unknown / unexpected" factors it contributes to the EvE experience.
lordjanuss Shockwave Innovations Shockwave Sovereign Industries 5	Posted - 2012.11.30 18:12:00 - [22] - Quote CCP was playing with the thought about adding more WH at fanfest 2012, I think that would be interesting, ( 7-9) with Cap sleepers . and we have not seen sleepers attacking gas ops and bashing POS , I think that would be fun.
Derath Ellecon Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal 466	Posted - 2012.11.30 18:18:00 - [23] - Quote Gnaw LF wrote: Chitsa Jason wrote: I think future of W-space depends on the way the new POS system is going to be implemented. The way I see it at the moment is: If it is going to be ministation with no ability to collect information from Dscan then most of thrill of wspace will be gone. There will be occasional POS (cough station) camps. Some capital or tengu ganks but thats about it. Small/medium fleet fights will be mostly gone due to inability to collect intel and react or counteract. W-space corporations will adapt and start roaming null and low sec more. They will use their wspace systems as base of ops for isk making and ship storage. Sadly I concur, if the FF is gone and we can't d-scan to gather intel it will mean having eyes on each POS in order to see what is "berthed" at it. Then there is also talk about having multiple POSes on grid, and having the ability to drop em not just on moons but also in deadspace. As I see it, opening into the system, dropping probes to find the enemy POS "city" and then getting eyes on every POS will be detrimental to w-space and the "unknown / unexpected" factors it contributes to the EvE experience. Imagine having several POS on grid fully manned with gunners.
Altrue Exploration Frontier inc 60	Posted - 2012.11.30 19:09:00 - [24] - Quote In my corporation we all have the feeling that CCP is considering wormholers as the "bad little duck" of EvE population. No Dust for temperates in wormholes. No "strategic" in the word "strategic cruisers" in wormholes. (due to inability to switch subsystems... Come on, it's been more than THREE YEARS now, if there were truly a will to change this from CCP, they would have already done it) No moon mining. (Despite the fact that logistically it's harder for wormholers to maintain a lot of POSes active in the same system. So, it would be quite logical to see moon mining in wormholes, and better moons than in regular null sec.) No sovereignty in wormholes. (Despite the fact that the feeling of "controlling" a system is much more pronounced in a wormhole than in any other null sec system) No logistical help for mining in wormholes. No instant respawn of belts in wormholes as opposed to null sec gravi. 50% of new modules released are battleship sized. Battleships are commonly known to be a pain in... (some part of your body) due to mass restrictions for low and mid-classes wormholes. So yeah, I will proclaim loudly that, in my opinion, CCP is considering wormholes as a mistake of the past, and is not planning anything that would only affect wormhole life. Except nerfs eventually, of course. Despite the fact that it is one of the rare remaining places were you can find some true PvP, the same PvP that CCP is so proud to stream during tournaments. The only PvP were skill matters more than ressources, and were there is no possible surprise hotdrop, boring weak NPCs or pvp-killing local. I would truly appreciate to read someone showing me an opposite vision and breaking my arguments... But I doubt to see anything like that, sadly. *Yelling "Manticooore !" on teamspeak*
Fatyn AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse 26	Posted - 2012.11.30 20:21:00 - [25] - Quote Wormholes are one of the least broken parts of the game. Sure you could add sleeper content, but who the ** really cares about PVE anyway. Wormhole goo of all kinds serves to build tech 3 ships, tech 3 ships are popular and get blown up often, everybody wins. POS mechanics on the other hand are one of the most totally **** parts of the game, and are soon going to be totally obliterated and worked up from scratch. When the patch comes when you move into your new modular, customisable, slick interface exotic dancer wormhole brothel, you are going forget the old **** POS system ever existed. The whole d-scan / docking / intel gathering complaints are based on partial info, murky rumours and assuming CCP are the worst. Be my guest and be vocal about it to Two-Step, but the world is not going to end. Strategic cruisers not re-fitting in wormholes is however terrible and CCP should be mildly embarassed. I don't expect a fix until the POS patch. Anybody else whining about no love for wormholes? * No dust? * No MOON MINING? * No Sov? * No help for miners?? Oh dear. --> Z142
bubble trout Sky Fighters Talocan United 13	Posted - 2012.11.30 20:44:00 - [26] - Quote Fatyn wrote: When the patch comes when you move into your new modular, customisable, slick interface exotic dancer wormhole brothel, you are going forget the old ****** POS system ever existed. Yes please.
Derath Ellecon Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal 468	Posted - 2012.11.30 21:16:00 - [27] - Quote Wow. I don't think I have quite seen a post more OFF the mark than this one. WH's are one of the best designed areas of space IMO Keep in mind as you read that Wormhole space was DESIGNED to be a harsh environment. It was DESIGNED specifically to NOT cater to easy long term habitation. Within that design it works quite well. Altrue wrote: No Dust for temperates in wormholes. Who cares? But more importantly, how would it even make sense. The planets being used are only in FW space, where it makes sense that Dust players will be fighting the faction wars. How in the EVE universe would you explain the DUST players even getting onto those worlds? Altrue wrote: No "strategic" in the word "strategic cruisers" in wormholes. (due to inability to switch subsystems... Come on, it's been more than THREE YEARS now, if there were truly a will to change this from CCP, they would have already done it) For one, this isn't a wormhole issue. It's a POS refitting issue. So it does not help your argument that WH space is broken. Every player trying to live in the Great wildlands for example has the same issue, as there are almost no stations in that region of 0.0 (if any, I forget at the moment) Or talk to all of the other 0.0 inhabitants that are nowhere near a friendly station or outpost. Altrue wrote: 1. No moon mining. (Despite the fact that logistically it's harder for wormholers to maintain a lot of POSes active in the same system. So, it would be quite logical to see moon mining in wormholes, and better moons than in regular null sec.) 2. No sovereignty in wormholes. (Despite the fact that the feeling of "controlling" a system is much more pronounced in a wormhole than in any other null sec system) 3. No logistical help for mining in wormholes. No instant respawn of belts in wormholes as opposed to null sec gravi. 1. Thank god. what WH space doesn't need is the huge 0.0 alliances eyeing up WH space. WH space is profitable enough without them. 2. You answer the question there. Wormhole space doesn't NEED SOV. How would the mechanics even work? Let's see I need to online SBU at 50% of the gates....oh wait. Wormholes don't need the broken SOV mechanics. WH mechanics make it so little guys can actually stake out their claim and even sometimes have the hope of defending it. 3. Read the top comment. WH's are designed to be hard. With that in mind working as intended. You wanna mine all day, go rent a system in 0.0. Altrue wrote: 50% of new modules released are battleship sized. Battleships are commonly known to be a pain in... (some part of your body) due to mass restrictions for low and mid-classes wormholes. This is just a reach to try and link new BS mods as a slap to WH's? I can think of plenty of fun ways to use that MJD in a WH fight already. Boo, can only quote 5 times in a single post... Had to consolidate.
Fillory Obstergo Exhale. 1	Posted - 2012.11.30 23:43:00 - [28] - Quote Derath Ellecon wrote: Opposite vision that broke all Altrue's arguements... Bravo, and well said.
smokeAjoint Orbital Dominance Malefic Aspects 20	Posted - 2012.12.01 02:41:00 - [29] - Quote Fillory wrote: Derath Ellecon wrote: Opposite vision that broke all Altrue's arguements... Bravo, and well said. QFT -álegalize it
Altrue Exploration Frontier inc 65	Posted - 2012.12.02 12:01:00 - [30] - Quote Derath Ellecon wrote: Opposite vision of mine, using the fact that wormhole life is designed to be harsh as an excuse for broken mechanisms. Even if I do recognize foundations and logic in your arguments, my point remains the same : No improvements for us. Yes wormholes were designed to be rude, but is it a reason to prevent gravi from respawning or to make it impossible to move the ore out of it without a rorqual ? In my opinion, absence of local makes mining conditions hard enough, don't you think ? Yes, it's not easy to switch subsystems in regular 0.0 as well... But you know, there is people out there that are out of wormholes AND out of 0.0. The fact that you're experiencing the same problem, as a justification of it's normality, is then irrelevant. My argument was to demonstrate that T3's are broken even in the place they are supposed to be produced. It's as paradoxical as if you were saying that ORE ships were not adapted for mining. About sov : Indeed my point was implying that sov mechanisms would require to be adapted, it's common sense... For example, I'm not for super capitals productions inside wormholes. It has already been pointed that defenders are advantaged enough in many situations. Same thing for sov capture conditions, SBU wouldn't be usable. But don't you think that wormholers are more attached to their system than would pilots in a 0.0 alliance ? Is it that unatural to ask for a mechanism rewarding long-term occupation and formalizing sov in wormholes ? So, YES some problems that I'm raising are not exclusive to wormholes, but they remain problems that are affecting wormhole life stronger than any other life style in EvE. In addition, the initial topic was about "The future of W-space.", I'm demonstrating that issues with wormholes are numerous and aberrant. Even if everything in your answer was right, it would simply prove that wormholes are not the only place were there is a lack of perspectives... But my point would still remain perfectly intact : No one can say that wormholes have dev's attention. *Yelling "Manticooore !" on teamspeak*

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