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Need advice on where to focus training for L4s.

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Lemok Sonji Little Miss Duck 0	Posted - 2011.10.05 07:01:00 - [1] - Quote Hello. I hope this is the right place to ask. Currently I'm running L3s with pretty ease flying my caldari drake. I can recently able to use T2 shields and amplifiers, and T2 hardeners in a few days time. I want to start doing L4s, but I only have 1.4m SP. My drake dps isn't very high, as I was more focusing on shields and defence, and as I didn't know if I should keep training the heavy missiles way, or switch to a raven and cruise missiles skilling. Most of my supporting missile skills are rank 3, and I can't use T2 launchers. I know there is a big difference in tanking types, as the drake is passive and the raven is active/pluse tanking. So I need an advice on where to proceed, and if my skills are enough to start the L4s now or I need to wait. Cheers
Caelus Heliodromus British Federation Sleepless Knights Alliance 0	Posted - 2011.10.05 15:27:00 - [2] - Quote L4s are a whole different ballgame and I would advise against rushing into them. The Drake is a tanking beast and is significantly more durable than a Raven, particularly with lower skillpoints. There are three main areas you should focus on improving when looking to upgrading to a Raven and L4s. Tanking: Active tanking takes more skills than passive tanking and basically revolves around your cap. Energy Operations and Management should be taken to 4 at a bare minimum but to 5 ASAP. You'll also be taking more damage because you're a bigger target and will be hit harder by the same enemies. DPSing: Missile skills, of course. Getting Caldari BS and cruise missiles up to at least 4 is going to be important. But you also need to think about targeting and signature focusing (L4s require you to target more enemies using different weapon systems, and switching targets takes longer since you are bigger relative to your targets). Drones: Absolutely vital. Cruise missiles are very ineffective against small, fast targets. Those small fast targets will also be webbing you (increasing the damage you take) and scramming you (so you can't run away). Drones to 5, Scout Drones to V (for T2), Drone Interfacing to at least 3 or 4 and support skills to 3 are going to be key unless you don't mind losing expensive battleships left and right.
Potato IQ Hedion University Amarr Empire 8	Posted - 2011.10.05 15:40:00 - [3] - Quote I think your taking the tank skills too far as that level is GÇÿlike to haveGÇÖ rather than GÇÿreally must haveGÇÖ imo. Agree with rest, although IGÇÖd still go in even with T1 drones whilst making them a priority skill set Maybe go Scorpion to start as a silly tank can be had to get used to lvl 4GÇÖs as your skills progress. Then introduce the Raven on the quicker missions that your familiar with and get used to the requirements with less tank/managing cap/booster but more spank. The rewards are so much more, donGÇÖt delay too much
Steve Ronuken Cossette Moana 5	Posted - 2011.10.05 16:00:00 - [4] - Quote Agree completely about Drones. Even if you don't get Scout Drone ops V, get Drones V and Interfacing at least up to 3. Extra drones multiply their DPS, and a 60% bonus for less than a day's training (Interfacing) is nothing to be sneezed at.
Lemok Sonji Little Miss Duck 0	Posted - 2011.10.06 06:24:00 - [5] - Quote Thanks guys. About drones I agree, and I already have drones V and ranks 2/3s on some of the helping skills. Will get them a bit higher. And I will get my energy skills up as they are currently at 3 (drake doesn't know what capacitors is ), this is good advice. And targeting and signature I have them at 4, but I will get my shields capacitors skills up as well. And about starting with a scorpion, isn't it a bit inferior vs the raven regarding fitting and launcher slots? Or is it because it has shorter capacitors recharge time and more med slots? Cheers.
Potato IQ Hedion University Amarr Empire 8	Posted - 2011.10.06 13:24:00 - [6] - Quote Tanking is going to be your biggest problem with lvl 4GÇÖs, so the Scorpion has it, but yes at the expense of DPS with only 4 launchers. IGÇÖm just considering your low skills. I jumped into Raven with similar SP and found it tough going. CNR helped a lot, but came close to losing a few times at first. Saving the warp-outs with staying on the field may be an improvement with the lower DPS For an easier path, maybe go Scorpion - Scorpion Navy Issue - Raven when skills up to become familiar - CNR
Lemok Sonji Little Miss Duck 0	Posted - 2011.10.10 05:09:00 - [7] - Quote Potato IQ wrote: Tanking is going to be your biggest problem with lvl 4GÇÖs, so the Scorpion has it, but yes at the expense of DPS with only 4 launchers. IGÇÖm just considering your low skills. I jumped into Raven with similar SP and found it tough going. CNR helped a lot, but came close to losing a few times at first. Saving the warp-outs with staying on the field may be an improvement with the lower DPS For an easier path, maybe go Scorpion - Scorpion Navy Issue - Raven when skills up to become familiar - CNR Thanks for the advice. I'm putting a few skills in, and plan to get the SNI because of the higher tank and similar dps to the raven with my current skill set. It will be a good move or am I still rushing it?
Fedimart Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 5	Posted - 2011.10.10 06:09:00 - [8] - Quote Lemok Sonji wrote: Potato IQ wrote: Tanking is going to be your biggest problem with lvl 4GÇÖs, so the Scorpion has it, but yes at the expense of DPS with only 4 launchers. IGÇÖm just considering your low skills. I jumped into Raven with similar SP and found it tough going. CNR helped a lot, but came close to losing a few times at first. Saving the warp-outs with staying on the field may be an improvement with the lower DPS For an easier path, maybe go Scorpion - Scorpion Navy Issue - Raven when skills up to become familiar - CNR Thanks for the advice. I'm putting a few skills in, and plan to get the SNI because of the higher tank and similar dps to the raven with my current skill set. It will be a good move or am I still rushing it? I prefer not to get into a ship until i have pretty good skills to fly it but that's just me. If you can run the below fitting cap stable you should be okay. Check your overview for frigates that are scramming you and kill them ASAP. IMO you should have Drone Interfacing to 4 and have T2 light drones before flying a BS solo in level 4's. This will help you kill that frigate that is scramming you before your ship pops. Good luck! [Scorpion Navy Issue, SNI Cap Stable] Capacitor Flux Coil II Capacitor Flux Coil II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II X-Large Shield Booster II Shield Boost Amplifier II Shield Boost Amplifier II 'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Paradise Cruise Missile 'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Paradise Cruise Missile 'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Paradise Cruise Missile 'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Paradise Cruise Missile 'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Paradise Cruise Missile 'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Paradise Cruise Missile Drone Link Augmentor I Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Jennifer Starling Imperial Navy Forum Patrol 46	Posted - 2011.10.10 11:14:00 - [9] - Quote Lemok Sonji wrote: I'm putting a few skills in, and plan to get the SNI because of the higher tank and similar dps to the raven with my current skill set. It will be a good move or am I still rushing it? The thing is that L4s vary a lot what incoming DPS is concerned. Some are even doable in an Assault frigate, others even give fully T2 fit battleships a tough time. Just try to kill the warp scramblers so you can at least get out and don't lose your ship. In the end it's a matter of trial and error (e.g. warping out). It's a good idea to read the mission reports on eve-survival.org before warping in, they give you a good impression about what to expect; what damage type to use and what resistance to reinforce. Not sure about your in-game finances but a Tengu is also a very viable ship for doing L4 missions. You may want to read this thread: Caldari Ship Progression After Drake?
Lemok Sonji Little Miss Duck 0	Posted - 2011.10.10 13:11:00 - [10] - Quote Thanks. I have been thinking about the tengu to train later on, for exploration and a covert ops ship (along with my other char which I'm going to train for a protus soon). But since the tengu is a long way, and its skills will be similar to most of the skills I will need for a BS, and since BS is closer to get, I will start with that. I think in the end I will start with a SNI because of the tank and more mid slots which will allow me to add a TP (since I can't use T2 drones yet), and later get the CNR, or back to get the tengu. And yeah, I will defently read the missions before I go in At first I didn't, and ended up pulling almost 30 ships on me at some point Cheers.
Lemok Sonji Little Miss Duck 0	Posted - 2011.10.10 15:39:00 - [11] - Quote How about this? [Scorpion Navy Issue] Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II F85 Peripheral Damage System I X-Large C5-L Emergency Shield Overload I Heavy F-RX Prototype I Capacitor Boost, Cap Booster 800 Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron Shield Boost Amplifier I Cap Recharger II 'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Paradise Cruise Missile 'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Paradise Cruise Missile 'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Paradise Cruise Missile 'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Paradise Cruise Missile 'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Paradise Cruise Missile 'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Paradise Cruise Missile [empty high slot] Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst I Large Warhead Flare Catalyst I Large Warhead Flare Catalyst I Hobgoblin I x5 This is what I can use. Cap last 3m 49s sustain defense 489 reinforced defense 631 missile dps 260.1 drones dps 33 EHP: 84280 Ok? Not good enough?
Jennifer Starling Imperial Navy Forum Patrol 46	Posted - 2011.10.10 19:42:00 - [12] - Quote Lemok Sonji wrote: How about this? This is what I can use. Cap last 3m 49s sustain defense 489 reinforced defense 631 missile dps 260.1 drones dps 33 EHP: 84280 Ok? Not good enough? Your defence seems ok (better use 2 mission specific hardeners and 1 Inv Field) but your DPS is very low. You may not be able to take out a number of self-repping battleships in some missions with this damage. - Compare to some of my sub-BS ships (missile implants, not counting drone DPS): Hurricane 429 DPS (Barrage) Fleet Stabber 303 DPS Drake 544 DPS (Fury missiles) Jaguar 184 DPS Tengu 808 DPS (Fury missiles) Some say an average battleship should do 750 DPS which is a bit much imo, but 500 seems to be a good amount to work towards. You could give it a try though to get a good first impression ;-)
Jennifer Starling Imperial Navy Forum Patrol 48	Posted - 2011.10.10 20:14:00 - [13] - Quote oops
DarkStar Kuha Justice Disbanded 0	Posted - 2011.10.10 21:50:00 - [14] - Quote Honestly, I rushed in L4's and lost a raven(days of L3's isk worth...) so I plex'd got a rattlesnake(wasnt skilled) did L4's with ease(YOU DO NEED DRONES V and SCOUT OPERATION TO III) Then lost the rattlesnake as I was can flipped(hey, I didnt know he left fleet. Was a n00b) Then got myself another raven when I could use T2 defensive modules, to this date my missiles skills suck ass(will be changing soon) Honestly, Make up a raven with with a X-Large shield booster II and 2x Shield Boost amp II, INVU II? and make it cap stable. I solo my L4's now with a cap stable X-LSE II as you can leave it on perma and it takes alot to break it. But i'll be in a tengu when im a little richer., Just get a cap stable raven with a X-Large shield booster II. I lost my first mission raven due to not being cap stable.
Lemok Sonji Little Miss Duck 0	Posted - 2011.10.10 21:59:00 - [15] - Quote Thanks. I did a few changes and added a few skills in missiles to level 2 and put faction missiles. [Scorpion Navy Issue] Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II X-Large C5-L Emergency Shield Overload I Shield Boost Amplifier I Invulnerability Field II Ballistic Deflection Field II Heat Dissipation Field II Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron Heavy F-RX Prototype I Capacitor Boost, Cap Booster 800 Cap Recharger II 'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Caldari Navy Paradise Cruise Missile 'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Caldari Navy Paradise Cruise Missile 'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Caldari Navy Paradise Cruise Missile 'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Caldari Navy Paradise Cruise Missile 'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Caldari Navy Paradise Cruise Missile 'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Caldari Navy Paradise Cruise Missile [empty high slot] Large Warhead Flare Catalyst I Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Large Bay Loading Accelerator I Hobgoblin I x5 Hammerhead I x5 I will get : cap stable at 7m 12s missile dps at 342.2 EHP at 83091 sustained dps at 702, reinforced at 785 This seems better?
veshna wildsun Caldari Provisions Caldari State 0	Posted - 2011.10.11 00:24:00 - [16] - Quote I would try doing some L4's with your drake as you train up missile support and drone skills. It will hurt less when you die and dieing in a decent drake is tough to do. The drake is a good ship and you can get a good feel for how L4's work and you will initially have less trouble dealing with warp scramming frigates because you have 2 weapons that are effective (HML's only to a degree) against them. Just my 2 isk
grumpyguts1 Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 2	Posted - 2011.10.11 01:19:00 - [17] - Quote My 2isk... don't go into Lv4's without T2 drones.. I delayed them.. and once I got around to them, I wish I had done them sooner, drone interfacing to at least 3. and also be careful just popping scramming frigs, they could be triggers. 4 bcs's don't give much more than 3, so fit a damage control or PDS, or both :) Better to be safe than sorry the first few times out. I went out in a Raven with probably lower skills than you and manged OK and never lost a ship. Just tank mission specific. Training cap skill's like energy systems operation and shield compensation, they make a big difference. If you cap stable with the shield and cap booster off, drop the cap recharger and fit more tank. If it was me, I would even put a small ac on empty high for the frigs that orbit close.
Lemok Sonji Little Miss Duck 0	Posted - 2011.10.11 05:11:00 - [18] - Quote Thanks all. You been a great help. I decided to still go with a SNI because of the huge tank. And decided to fit it: [Scorpion Navy Issue] Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Capacitor Flux Coil I Shield Boost Amplifier I Ballistic Deflection Field II Ballistic Deflection Field II Heat Dissipation Field II Heat Dissipation Field II Large Shield Booster II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II 'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Caldari Navy Paradise Cruise Missile 'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Caldari Navy Paradise Cruise Missile 'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Caldari Navy Paradise Cruise Missile 'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Caldari Navy Paradise Cruise Missile 'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Caldari Navy Paradise Cruise Missile 'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Caldari Navy Paradise Cruise Missile [empty high slot] Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Hobgoblin I x5 Hammerhead I x5 Even tho I still have T1 drones, this fit is fully cap stable. Against guristas (60/40 kin/the) it is has 652 dps tank (107 EHP) and the dps is at 319.5, which should be ok for staring L4s. Its much better than the drake dps and tank in my skill level, and it will allow me to focus on weapons and drones. And getting a few skills up, I will be able to push it to 610 missile dps and 782 dps tank. Cheers.
Zhilia Mann Tide Way Out Productions 33	Posted - 2011.10.11 05:20:00 - [19] - Quote Lemok Sonji wrote: Thanks all. You been a great help. I decided to still go with a SNI because of the huge tank. And decided to fit it: [Scorpion Navy Issue] Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Capacitor Flux Coil I Shield Boost Amplifier I Ballistic Deflection Field II Ballistic Deflection Field II Heat Dissipation Field II Heat Dissipation Field II Large Shield Booster II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II 'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Caldari Navy Paradise Cruise Missile 'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Caldari Navy Paradise Cruise Missile 'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Caldari Navy Paradise Cruise Missile 'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Caldari Navy Paradise Cruise Missile 'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Caldari Navy Paradise Cruise Missile 'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Caldari Navy Paradise Cruise Missile [empty high slot] Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Hobgoblin I x5 Hammerhead I x5 Even tho I still have T1 drones, this fit is fully cap stable. Against guristas (60/40 kin/the) it is has 652 dps tank (107 EHP) and the dps is at 319.5, which should be ok for staring L4s. You're going to have an awfully difficult time dealing with frigates with T1 drones and nothing to help the cruise missiles (ie, no painters, rigors, flares, or even precision missiles). Chances are it will be able to tank long enough for cruises to (eventually) nail that last scramming frig but it's gonna get dicey. Be very careful in the second room of Silence the Informant.
Lemok Sonji Little Miss Duck 0	Posted - 2011.10.11 05:58:00 - [20] - Quote Oh I see. I guess I can drop a BCSII for another flux coil, and put a painter instead of a cap recharger.
Deucaliona Myaxis 0	Posted - 2011.10.11 11:23:00 - [21] - Quote My progression went Drake>Raven>Golem. So i cant really comment on the use of a SNI doing a IV but it does seem to have quite a few mids to play with there. Your fit on it has improved tremendously from the earlier ones in this thread. The 2+2 Specific hardeners makes the difference in a good tank, its good to see you dropped the invulns as they use alot more KJ to run. There are a few missions that can use them where u have more omni inc damage but for the majority 2+2 is perfect. Like someone mentioned before you do need at least 1 tp on there to really put some of the NPC bc's and cruiser's balls to the fire. When you become a little more comfortable on the triggers and missions in general you can opt for the faction/complex shield booster +hardeners. They are pricey but for the simple reason that it does make a difference in cap use and more % in resist. So less boosting and more pewing. Just as an example what i used on the raven when i began running IV's that i did not have an issue with. (full room aggro not included) Applicable Cap/Eng skills @ lvl 4 [Raven, lvl4 ] Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Power Diagnostic System II Power Diagnostic System II Heat Dissipation Field II Heat Dissipation Field II Ballistic Deflection Field II Ballistic Deflection Field II X-Large Shield Booster II Parallel Weapon Navigation Transmitter 'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Paradise Cruise Missile 'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Paradise Cruise Missile 'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Paradise Cruise Missile 'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Paradise Cruise Missile 'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Paradise Cruise Missile 'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Paradise Cruise Missile 150mm Light AutoCannon I, EMP S 150mm Light AutoCannon I, EMP S Large Core Defence Operational Solidifier I Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Large Capacitor Control Circuit I At any rate, enjoy the IV's in the SNI :D They are rewarding
Fedimart Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 5	Posted - 2011.10.11 15:36:00 - [22] - Quote veshna wildsun wrote: I would try doing some L4's with your drake as you train up missile support and drone skills. It will hurt less when you die and dieing in a decent drake is tough to do. The drake is a good ship and you can get a good feel for how L4's work and you will initially have less trouble dealing with warp scramming frigates because you have 2 weapons that are effective (HML's only to a degree) against them. Just my 2 isk This is the best advice so far. You can lose quite a few Drake's for the price of one SNI. On EFT the Drake might have lower DPS but that doesn't take all factors into consideration. Also the Drake will be more effective against frigates since you don't have T2 drones. This being said if ISK isn't a factor worse case senerio is the SNI goes pop and you get a new one. Eve is about trial and error sometimes.
Mixne More Money More Problems 8	Posted - 2011.10.11 16:29:00 - [23] - Quote I have to agree with people saying start running lvl 4s in a Drake and work your missile, drone and support skills up before jumping into a Raven. In fact, I found that when I was "ready" to get into a Raven, I didn't really even enjoy flying it. You can probably get away with following setup on a Drake for lvl 4s. It may take a while to kill everything, but you shouldn't die if you read up on the missions on EVE Survival prior to running them. Managing aggression and triggers is KEY in lvl 4s. [Drake, Drake Passive PvE] Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Recharger II Shield Recharger II Invulnerability Field I Invulnerability Field I Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II XR-3200 Heavy Missile Bay, Scourge Heavy Missile XR-3200 Heavy Missile Bay, Scourge Heavy Missile XR-3200 Heavy Missile Bay, Scourge Heavy Missile XR-3200 Heavy Missile Bay, Scourge Heavy Missile XR-3200 Heavy Missile Bay, Scourge Heavy Missile XR-3200 Heavy Missile Bay, Scourge Heavy Missile XR-3200 Heavy Missile Bay, Scourge Heavy Missile [empty high slot] Medium Core Defence Field Purger I Medium Core Defence Field Purger I Medium Warhead Rigor Catalyst I However, something like this would perform a bit better for lvl 4s. Of course, it's also going to be a bit more expensive. [Drake, Lvl 4 Drake] Shield Power Relay II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Y-S8 Hydrocarbon I Afterburners Shield Recharger II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II 'Arbalest' Heavy Missile Launcher, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile 'Arbalest' Heavy Missile Launcher, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile 'Arbalest' Heavy Missile Launcher, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile 'Arbalest' Heavy Missile Launcher, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile 'Arbalest' Heavy Missile Launcher, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile 'Arbalest' Heavy Missile Launcher, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile 'Arbalest' Heavy Missile Launcher, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Small Tractor Beam I Medium Core Defence Field Purger I Medium Core Defence Field Purger I Medium Warhead Rigor Catalyst I Hornet II x1 Hornet II x1 Hornet II x1 Hornet II x1 Hornet II x1 Drone choice is yours of course and the shield hardeners should be switched out to mission specific damage types (thermal/kinetic for gurista and serpentis, em/thermal for blood raider and sansha, 2 x invuln works for drones). I always use faction missiles, kinetic for everything unless they are weak to EM, then use EM.
Lemok Sonji Little Miss Duck 0	Posted - 2011.10.11 17:34:00 - [24] - Quote Thanks guys. I guess I will do a few more L3s and easy L4s with my drake until I get a few cap/drones skills up, plus get a few implants to help. I will spend a bit of time increasing the passive shield skills of the drake to make it a bit more viable before I run to a raven or SNI (most like a SNI still because I love the looks and the scorpion isn't really viable for L4s, too slow) I'm flying a drake similar to what you suggested, and yeah, it works amazing even at low skills. Cheers again and thanks :) You been a great help

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