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Dante KamiyaX
Pirate IndustriesX
6
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Posted - 2011.10.05 11:48:00 -
[1] - Quote
Tech 3 weapon and ammo advances would be interesting to see mainly to boost T3 ship DPS mainly for ones that lack DPS. It would be simpler to boost the T3's to do more DPS but not as fun as more skills and toy's to play with. Here is my take on Tech 3 Weapons & Ammo. Giving new manufacturing options to items.
T3 Guns: Tech 3 weapons are similar to Tech 2 weapons just with better stats, higher skill requirements, and possibly restricted to T3 ships only to make T3 ships more unique.
Stats might look like 25% better damage, rate of fire, and tracking compared to T2 weapons.
Skills: Advanced Weapons Specialization Rank 10 Skill. (One skill for each gun type.) This changes the stats of the guns in all areas 5% per level.
Requirements: Specialization of all related guns to level 5 up to medium guns.
Ammo: Tech 3 ammo uses Scandium Metallofullerene warheards, charges, and crystals. Possibly in T3 drones as well. To boost the stats of the weapons systems. This ammo is expensive and powerful. It can only be used in T3 guns and other ammo can not be used in T3 weapon systems.
Ammo Types Examples: Scandium Metallofullerene High Damage Charges Scandium Metallofullerene Long Range Charges
A fullerene-scandium compound made by encasing a single scandium atom in a cage of carbon atoms. Scandium is a grey-white element that has historically been incredibly hard to find. Scandium-tipped missiles were once valued for their armor-piercing qualities, which allowed them to wreck havoc deep inside starship hulls. The only thing holding the weapons industry back from these and other similar applications has been the low supply of the material.
Since the rarity of this material is no longer a issue. I thought it would be cool to use it in weapon systems. I believe due to the extreme price and skill requirements that this would balance out any issues of being overpowered. Note that this is months of training time to even use T3 weapons. |
Di Mulle
9
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Posted - 2011.10.05 11:59:00 -
[2] - Quote
Dante KamiyaX wrote: I believe due to the extreme price and skill requirements that this would balance out any issues of being overpowered. Note that this is months of training time to even use T3 weapons.
A mistake, both common and extremely naive.
CCP is unable to implement simpliest things. Like settting to hide signatures. So they sweep it under a rug . Children do that in their pre-shool years, CCP does it being adults. Probably because it is fearless enough. |
Dante KamiyaX
Pirate IndustriesX
6
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Posted - 2011.10.05 12:06:00 -
[3] - Quote
Di Mulle wrote:Dante KamiyaX wrote: I believe due to the extreme price and skill requirements that this would balance out any issues of being overpowered. Note that this is months of training time to even use T3 weapons.
A mistake, both common and extremely naive.
So then enlighten us in some ideas you may have to balance out the power instead of giving nothing towards the discussion of the thread but disagreement? Perhaps be more constructive to the reasons why and post your own ideas.
For example maybe they should slowly overheat the ship and mods so it takes some type of damage over extended use.
A word of curiosity. Have you even flown a T3 ship to know how sucky there dps is to begin with? Most T2 cruisers and pirate faction cruisers can do more DPS. |
Jake Falcor
LOST IDEA C0VEN
1
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Posted - 2011.10.05 13:59:00 -
[4] - Quote
Dante KamiyaX wrote:Di Mulle wrote:Dante KamiyaX wrote: I believe due to the extreme price and skill requirements that this would balance out any issues of being overpowered. Note that this is months of training time to even use T3 weapons.
A mistake, both common and extremely naive. So then enlighten us in some ideas you may have to balance out the power instead of giving nothing towards the discussion of the thread but disagreement? Perhaps be more constructive to the reasons why and post your own ideas. For example maybe they should slowly overheat the ship and mods so it takes some type of damage over extended use. A word of curiosity. Have you even flown a T3 ship to know how sucky there dps is to begin with? Most T2 cruisers and pirate faction cruisers can do more DPS.
Honestly, he is right to disagree :) T3 ships are considered to be one of most powerful cruiser dps/tank wise. Most properly fitted t3 are able to reach levels impossible to obtain on normal Ahacs, still having the advantage of very nice tank or superior e-war (check proteus builds with tank/warp disrupting subsystems, making it actually better than lachesis' or arazus, or see loki dps/tank rate, or loki webbing abilities).
Not to mention their ability to be practically invincible during travel (Interdiction nulli/covert cloak combo is almost impossible to break, if not for lag or timely use of smartbombs).
The only t3 ship which is pretty much useless cost-wise is Legion, which is just 10% more zealot for 100% more isks :P
So my answer is no, introducing t3 ammo wont do anything good.
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Smoking Blunts
Zebra Corp BricK sQuAD.
64
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Posted - 2011.10.05 15:30:00 -
[5] - Quote
i too want a tengu with t3 launchers and t3 ammo..
/me has wet dream about a t3 doing more dps than a pimpped to the max bs
CCP-áare full of words and no action. We watch what they do and its nothing but false statements and lies.
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Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
15
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Posted - 2011.10.05 15:36:00 -
[6] - Quote
If you build it they will come. is always the counter to I think i made it expensive enough (time or money) to be overused.
Also fast quips concerning shooting down certain parts of your idea requires you should already KNOW WHY the quip exists if you hang out in FnI long enough let alone eve online.
Living Example Battleships, Tech 2 ships, Titans, there are like what? battles with 40 of these things a battle now?
Also you have to remember, there are pilots with capped out sp tech 2 guns ALREADY, at realsitic timers it only takes 2 months at most to cap out a tech 3 skill gun sp wise.
Also drawbacks of using tech 3s? Maybe they generate heat when they fire? not as much as an overheated module? Becuase of this arbitary mechanic would make the guns more useful on a tech 3 but doesnt restrict them to tech 3 ships. |
Satav
Latinum Exports
36
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Posted - 2011.10.05 15:39:00 -
[7] - Quote
so you want a t3 to do over 2500 dps then? .................
Just because you fly one i'm assuming......................
either way , not going to happen. T3's are powerful enough. |
Verity Sovereign
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
2
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Posted - 2011.10.05 15:43:00 -
[8] - Quote
See my post in this very similar topic: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=139084#post139084
If people prefer T2 fitted T1 ships over T1 fitted T2 ships...
Then we should be able to fit T3 modules to at least T2 ships.
Restricting T3 modules to T3 ships breaks with conventions the game has already established...
Maybe T3s ++ber powerful is as bad for game balance as introducing super caps was.
Battle starts: one side has more ISKies than the other, battle ends in crushing defeat of the cheaper fleet, even after the victorious fleet made numerous mistakes. |
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
15
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Posted - 2011.10.05 16:41:00 -
[9] - Quote
Verity Sovereign wrote:See my post in this very similar topic: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=139084#post139084If people prefer T2 fitted T1 ships over T1 fitted T2 ships... Then we should be able to fit T3 modules to at least T2 ships. Restricting T3 modules to T3 ships breaks with conventions the game has already established... Maybe T3s ++ber powerful is as bad for game balance as introducing super caps was. Battle starts: one side has more ISKies than the other, battle ends in crushing defeat of the cheaper fleet, even after the victorious fleet made numerous mistakes.
Which is why i think the guns that create heat would be the only way to allow tech 3 guns to only fit on tech 3 ships normally but a battleship with heatsinks could cause the cost creating the disadvantage as its now a lost slot. |
Alberio
Lone Star Exploration
16
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Posted - 2011.10.05 17:33:00 -
[10] - Quote
I think the idea of T3 weapons has merit, though I would take it in a more T3 direction:
Strategic weaponry: Allow players with of T3 weapons to build their own guns with variable advantages and disadvantages based on the subsystems they have trained.
For example:
A T3 hybrid gun might require subsystems skills which oversee Rate of Fire, Damage Multiplier, Falloff, Optimal, etc. or they might add an extra damage type: EM, Thermal, Kinetic, and Explosive.
A gun may only have a certain number of subsystems attached to it: thus, I may be able to create a T3 blaster with good falloff which does EM damage, but still has an optimal of 500m. Or I could create that same T3 blaster with great optimal and tracking bonuses, but poor rate of fire (and no fancy EM damage).
Etc. etc. The same could be done with missiles, projectiles, and lasers, of course.
The point being: rather than simply make T3 weapons systems "OMG THEY DO MORE DAMAGE", it would be better to take T3 weapons in the direction that T3 has: a variable weapons system for variable jobs. I don't see them as doing more damage (on the surface) as T2 or faction weapons, but I think players would enjoy the ability to break some of the hard-and-fast rules of weapon-fitting.
On the other hand: even that could be game breaking. So...there you go. |
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Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
15
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Posted - 2011.10.05 17:35:00 -
[11] - Quote
Alberio wrote:I think the idea of T3 weapons has merit, though I would take it in a more T3 direction:
Strategic weaponry: Allow players with of T3 weapons to build their own guns with variable advantages and disadvantages based on the subsystems they have trained.
For example:
A T3 hybrid gun might require subsystems skills which oversee Rate of Fire, Damage Multiplier, Falloff, Optimal, etc. or they might add an extra damage type: EM, Thermal, Kinetic, and Explosive.
A gun may only have a certain number of subsystems attached to it: thus, I may be able to create a T3 blaster with good falloff which does EM damage, but still has an optimal of 500m. Or I could create that same T3 blaster with great optimal and tracking bonuses, but poor rate of fire (and no fancy EM damage).
Etc. etc. The same could be done with missiles, projectiles, and lasers, of course.
The point being: rather than simply make T3 weapons systems "OMG THEY DO MORE DAMAGE", it would be better to take T3 weapons in the direction that T3 has: a variable weapons system for variable jobs. I don't see them as doing more damage (on the surface) as T2 or faction weapons, but I think players would enjoy the ability to break some of the hard-and-fast rules of weapon-fitting.
On the other hand: even that could be game breaking. So...there you go.
the sever stress involved though when calcuating and updating entities... this would make a ship so much heavier in processing I dont think it be worth it. Maybe one 'slot' could be used. |
Alberio
Lone Star Exploration
16
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Posted - 2011.10.05 19:28:00 -
[12] - Quote
Nova Fox wrote: the sever stress involved though when calcuating and updating entities... this would make a ship so much heavier in processing I dont think it be worth it. Maybe one 'slot' could be used.
I think that would all depend on exactly how they went about implementing it. I'm not sure how this would be any different than, say, adding rigs to a ship.
I think the basic concept, strategic weapon systems, is sound. Implementing the concept without it stressing out the servers is CCPs business. |
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
17
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Posted - 2011.10.05 19:43:00 -
[13] - Quote
but your talking about a tech 3 gun here if you give the guns more than one slot you just basically double up the number of modules per gun where as rig is just another module, every gun with multiple slots is that many more. |
Herping yourDerp
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
104
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Posted - 2011.10.05 20:07:00 -
[14] - Quote
T3 ships are some of the best in the game why make them better, they are kinda cheap now tbh.. t3 ammo? i can see that it would be like t2 ammo, t3 ammo can be +100% damage with -90% tracking therefore it would only really be usable vs cap ships and structures. |
Di Mulle
11
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Posted - 2011.10.05 22:28:00 -
[15] - Quote
Dante KamiyaX wrote:[
So then enlighten us in some ideas you may have to balance out the power instead of giving nothing towards the discussion of the thread but disagreement? Perhaps be more constructive to the reasons why and post your own ideas.
For example maybe they should slowly overheat the ship and mods so it takes some type of damage over extended use.
A word of curiosity. Have you even flown a T3 ship to know how sucky there dps is to begin with? Most T2 cruisers and pirate faction cruisers can do more DPS.
I already enlightened you by pointing out at least one of your basic underlying premises is wrong. Now you are asking me to discuss, in what font and color we should write 2+2=5, thus bringing "something towards discussion"
A word of curiosity. Have you ever heard that T3 were never intended to be solely DPS monsters, nor they should have made T2 ships obsolete ? And that they are not, at least not overwhelmingly, is in fact a good design ?
That is a second wrong premise. Basically "Bigger and more is good just by definition".
And first was that " ISK and /or SP costs are a good balancing tool". Or even "ever fixing everything" balance tool, as you apparently hope. As it appears they never were, at least not for long enough. (Not even speaking that you consider a couple months of training time as something extraordinary. Believe me, it is less than nothing. Zilch. And I do not belong to 100+ mil club even yet.)
CCP is unable to implement simpliest things. Like settting to hide signatures. So they sweep it under a rug . Children do that in their pre-shool years, CCP does it being adults. Probably because it is fearless enough. |
Dante KamiyaX
Pirate IndustriesX
6
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Posted - 2011.10.06 01:52:00 -
[16] - Quote
2 damage mods for each ship some with 3. Blaster Mega 1300/1500 DPS. Abaddon 1200 DPS
Legion with pulse lasers 400 DPS T2 fit. Legion with hams 500 DPS T2 fit.
Multi bil isk Ham Legion 750 DPS.
Proteus with blasters 1000 DPS pimped highest DPS possible in T3 ships.
Tengu 500 DPS HM. Tengu 600 DPS HAM.
Tengu Multi Bil isk 700/800 DPS.
Loki 300 DPS art. Loki 500 DPS AC.
About 100 more DPS pimped with multi bill isk.
Not much more DPS can be gotten out of these with pimp.
3 Damage mods T2 fit. Ham drake 700 DPS. Blaster Brutix +1000 DPS Shield Hurricane near 1000 DPS.
I think that pretty much sums up how low the DPS is to T3's.
Diemost 800/1000 DPS. Vaga 600/700 DPS. Zealot 550 DPS.
The DPS of T3 is actually pretty sad how they do less DPS then BC's and T2 crusiers. I don't think you all know what you are talking about. Maybe some eft warrior-ing would show you the light. T3's can not reach 2500 DPS that is outragous and coming from somebody who knows nothing about what they are talking about.
A proteus is the only T3 that can break 1k DPS and still that is not even close to most BS's DPS which can do closer to +1500 DPS A Hyperion does +1700 DPS. Conclusion T3 ships are weak vs T2 and BS class ships. Not much reason to fly them when a BC that costs 60mil isk can out DPS a T3 that costs more then a half a bil isk with just T2 fitting. |
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
20
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Posted - 2011.10.06 02:06:00 -
[17] - Quote
How about we make tech 3 guns scriptable as well instead of a fitted mode?
As we all know scripts steal stats from elsewhere to boost one stat, So I can see this being easily balancable. |
Callic Veratar
Power of the Phoenix
21
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Posted - 2011.10.06 17:49:00 -
[18] - Quote
I've always visioned T3 modules (like weapons) as a moddable thing. Take Medium Artillery for example: you can modify the optimal, falloff, tracking, damage, RoF, and all that from a pool of points.
A single T3 Medium Artillery module could be configured to operate anywhere from a stupidly long range 280mm gun to a one-shot-per-minutes 1200mm gun to a decent long range gun that can track a frigate.
The key is that it's flexible in such a way that every time you dock with it, you'll want to tweak it a bit more to get it just right.
It shouldn't be BETTER than a T2 module, it should be ALL of the T2 modules in one. |
Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
12
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Posted - 2011.10.06 18:52:00 -
[19] - Quote
Scaling up is not allways an great idea if you ask me.
If you go for T3/T4/T20 you add nothing to game just more boring pause before you get to use those. You increase gap between an newbie in rifter and senior one in T20 rifter with T20 guns which will do capital dmg like to drones
Thats my opinion about it..
@ Callic
Like your idea about basically modfiying T2 weapons/module stats "maybe slightly boosted" in the end blobs would definetly wokr out one or two viable variant for their encounters but thats inevitable.
As modifying i thought sliders you take off falloff and through some math equitation you put those points to tracking etc.
@ Dante
you are wrong at your tag highest possible dps at T3 / thats tengu 1047dps HAMs terror rage. |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
92
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Posted - 2011.10.06 19:23:00 -
[20] - Quote
Hmm... hang on, let's think about this... how can we use the T3 concept and still keep balance?
Here's a thought many will hate...
T3 weapons and ammo are designed for battleships and below, but intended to kill dreadnaughts and above. I'd have to play the idea out some in the ol' brain, but basically have T3 guns and ammo, launchers and missiles that are designed to deal large amounts of damage to caps and supers but the damage scales down dramatically against any subcap.
What could this do...
Well? It provides a needed role in the game... a counter to the massive fleets of caps and supers out there, yet does so in a niche way that keeps T3s from being hyper-powered against all ships. Fleets of supers would need balance in order to keep the T3s off 'em... balance I mean sub-capital ships instead of a pure super blob. It would add strategy to fights I think.
Don't hate on it immediately... ponder it a bit. Savor the aroma. Let the flavor roll across the palate and explode across the tastebuds.
I think this has potential.
I bounced around a little here, but can't decide if these should only be available for T3 ships or if they should be allowed to be fitted on any ship. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
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