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RioCrokite
The Kairos Syndicate Transmission Lost
4
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Posted - 2012.12.03 13:36:00 -
[1] - Quote
So we have about 6 months more before POS revamp.
In the meantime what about proposing no self-destructing within pos shields? As far as I remember this was and is a major issue for w-space people. Changing that would encourage more pvp / invasions / mercs activity in w-space because people could have stronger economic incentive to attack poses to get those expensive ships within their SMAs. As it stands now every invasion ends up with a defender sd-ing everything of value within pos shields.
Fixing sd'ing within pos shields would give us:
- more invasions, more pew - more tears - more contracts for wspace MERC corps - people would rather pay mercs to defend their systems facing loosing everything to an enemy - test grounds to see what happens after this change -> it would give you as a representative and CCP a valid argument for (or against) no seld-destructing in new revamped POSes.
I know that CSM is not a game design entity, but hell it can and should 1) represent its voters 2) influence CCP to do something in that direction. And I can see other CSM members' ideas implemented in this expansion. I also tried to check out your blog but the last merit entry is from 12th of August. Two Step, if that is not a simple issue to deal with, at least tell us reasons why it can't be fixed quickly - complex code, other unintended effects (I can't think of any atm), other stuff? Then we could now why nothing has been done in this respect.
Regards, Rio
tldr edit, if you're for / against this idea feel free to reply to this topic so we can see how many people care about that :P |
Vanths
4U Services Inc. Talocan United
5
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Posted - 2012.12.03 13:51:00 -
[2] - Quote
SDing a ship inside a POS doesn't make sense anyway, and CCPs QA is a little flakey so in before the exploit/work around:
Make it so if someone sticks the nose of their ship out the POS field, htis SD and attempts to float back in: bounce them out with a message "Self destructing ship will be ejected by the tower's automatic safety controls."
Infact if they choose to init SD inside the field, bounce them out anyway - perhaps like when the password is changed. Add a bit of drama to their attempt. |
Archdaimon
NorCorp Enterprise No Holes Barred
135
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Posted - 2012.12.03 13:57:00 -
[3] - Quote
As if there is even going to be a force field after pos revamp |
Gnaw LF
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
254
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Posted - 2012.12.03 16:26:00 -
[4] - Quote
You guys are forgetting something, I mean go back and read the information Two Step passed down from CCP. CCP is not happy with maintaining multiple inventory systems, that is why the new POS system is going to be a mini-outpost. That means you will now share the same inventory mechanic as all the other outpost in the game, which means you will be able to TRASH items and ships. No more waiting two minutes, no more screenshots from invading forces depicting the amount of stuff you had to SD, now everyone can just SHIFT-click and Trash.
Why do you guys thing I have been so vocal against the new system? Because if it does bring us the benefits of all that Outposts have to offer, trashing items is going to be one of them. On the other hand I absolutely abhor the idea of preventing SDing in w-space, unlike HS / low / Null w-space is already harsh on assets of the defending force, if they get podded out they can say goodbye to them. You literally get to make one mistake as a defender in w-space and I don't see asset denial as a major problem. I also have to state that I spent a bit of time working with Hard Knocks in defense of their system this weekend, and more invasions is not what w-space needs. Trust me on that. |
Reppyk
Yarrbear Inc. BricK sQuAD.
213
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Posted - 2012.12.03 16:37:00 -
[5] - Quote
Gnaw LF wrote:and more invasions is not what w-space needs 'gonna farm these sleepers in peace ! |
Rengas
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
37
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Posted - 2012.12.03 17:15:00 -
[6] - Quote
Reppyk wrote:Gnaw LF wrote:and more invasions is not what w-space needs 'gonna farm these sleepers in peace !
You got it meight
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Ayeson
Hard Knocks Inc.
72
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Posted - 2012.12.03 17:55:00 -
[7] - Quote
Gnaw LF wrote:and more invasions is not what w-space needs
Its hard to kill site farmers when there are none in any of the c5's C/D? Ask me about Rengas-dar, HRDKX's Most recent, groundbreaking, game-changing, wormhole-collapsing research endeavour. |
Two step
Aperture Harmonics K162
2323
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Posted - 2012.12.03 17:57:00 -
[8] - Quote
I've asked about SD in POS shields before, and will keep doing so. If I can't shoot from inside FFs, why can I blow up my ship? CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog
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Gnaw LF
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
254
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Posted - 2012.12.03 18:04:00 -
[9] - Quote
Two step wrote:I've asked about SD in POS shields before, and will keep doing so. If I can't shoot from inside FFs, why can I blow up my ship?
Two Step, thanks for the quick reply. Can you also ask if the new POS redesign will bring us the exact same inventory system as the outpost? Namely ask CCP if the Trash functionality will be available or specifically removed for POS?
Thanks. |
Ayeson
Hard Knocks Inc.
72
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Posted - 2012.12.03 18:08:00 -
[10] - Quote
Two step wrote:I've asked about SD in POS shields before, and will keep doing so. If I can't shoot from inside FFs, why can I blow up my ship?
Technically speaking it's a self destruct, designed to destroy the ship so your enemy doesn't get it. Do ships ever get self destructed in their ports during wartime?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scuttling_of_the_French_fleet_in_Toulon Ask me about Rengas-dar, HRDKX's Most recent, groundbreaking, game-changing, wormhole-collapsing research endeavour. |
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Glasgow Dunlop
Gigaverse The Imperial Senate
16
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Posted - 2012.12.03 21:40:00 -
[11] - Quote
Ayeson wrote:Two step wrote:I've asked about SD in POS shields before, and will keep doing so. If I can't shoot from inside FFs, why can I blow up my ship? Technically speaking it's a self destruct, designed to destroy the ship so your enemy doesn't get it. Do ships ever get self destructed in their ports during wartime? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scuttling_of_the_French_fleet_in_Toulon
think is one would be more in context, me thinks ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scuttling_of_the_German_fleet_in_Scapa_Flow
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Ayeson
Hard Knocks Inc.
72
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Posted - 2012.12.03 21:58:00 -
[12] - Quote
Yeah, that fits perfectly. This is what the self destruct option is for. Ask me about Rengas-dar, HRDKX's Most recent, groundbreaking, game-changing, wormhole-collapsing research endeavour. |
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery Swift Angels Alliance
643
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Posted - 2012.12.03 23:04:00 -
[13] - Quote
Two-step, lets not cut to the chase. What we want POS warfare to be like is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_battleship_Yamato Taking submissions for "Trinkets friendly Advice Column" via evemail or private convo in-game. Anonymity sorta guaranteed. http://www.localectomy.blogspot.com.au
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Messoroz
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
315
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Posted - 2012.12.03 23:33:00 -
[14] - Quote
Two step wrote:I've asked about SD in POS shields before, and will keep doing so. If I can't shoot from inside FFs, why can I blow up my ship?
Because your tears are delicious. |
Kalel Nimrott
EG CORP Talocan United
84
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 02:52:00 -
[15] - Quote
Messoroz wrote:Two step wrote:I've asked about SD in POS shields before, and will keep doing so. If I can't shoot from inside FFs, why can I blow up my ship? Because your tears are delicious. You are a genious! No, wait... |
Viaana
Jazz Associates Azgoths of Kria
0
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Posted - 2012.12.04 05:09:00 -
[16] - Quote
The only thing this will achieve is to encourage rolling more people out of W-Space, do you people not like having players to shoot?
And Two Step: If this is the only thing you can think to bring up with the CSM, along with making low class wormholes useless by only allowing small POS's in low class wormholes because "Large POS' are too difficult to attack with smaller ships", then i suggest you spend a bit more time looking at what the majority of people you represent use W-Space for. Rather than tending to the elite few who occupy the higher class wormholes and can field fleets are Capital Ships whenever they see fit.
If you guys actually want more action, maybe look at bring a few more people into Wormholes, rather than getting one last fight, and a bit of loot off of people when you kick them out. Because alot of them are looking rather barren atm. |
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
296
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 05:19:00 -
[17] - Quote
Two step wrote:If I can't shoot from inside FFs, why can I blow up my ship?
Because the self destruct button is on the inside of your pod (which is inside your ship) and the things you want to shoot at are on the other side of a barrier of energy strong enough to survive literally ANYTHING for up to a day and a half.
Why can I scratch my head in bewilderment, but I can't reach through the internet and slap you for your silly question?
As far as this thread goes, its just another temper tantrum from a large alliance that gets annoyed when they can't get easy kills by blobbing a smaller group of people. When you have a small corp of 20 guys and you see 10 dreads, 4 carriers and 20-30 T3 cruisers with 4-5 logis supporting show up in your home, what are you going to do? You can't fight that.
Fair enough if there are roughly even numbers, fight, or even if you think you can kill a couple before you get podded, fight. But when the second you poke your nose out of the shield you're going to die, whats the incentive to fight? I'd be self-destructing everything I could in that situation.
Denying you your kill-mail farm is almost as good a win as killing you (but not quite).
Bring a similar sized force and I'll be laughing all the way to my ships to shoot you. Bring a blob and I'll be doing my best to deny you everything I can.
Viaana wrote:making low class wormholes useless by only allowing small POS's in low class wormholes because "Large POS' are too difficult to attack with smaller ships"
I seem to recall an OP that i missed, where my alliance at the time (SYJ) blew up several large POSes in a c1 (or 2?) with nothing but battle cruisers and logis. Large towers can and do die to fleets of battle cruisers just fine. |
Svodola Darkfury
Heaven's End League of Infamy
86
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 09:01:00 -
[18] - Quote
RioCrokite wrote: Fixing sd'ing within pos shields would give us:
- more invasions, more pew - more tears - more contracts for wspace MERC corps - people would rather pay mercs to defend their systems facing loosing everything to an enemy - test grounds to see what happens after this change -> it would give you as a representative and CCP a valid argument for (or against) no seld-destructing in new revamped POSes.
I'm going to give you a break because you don't have enough PVP experience to make this kind of call, but I'll explain why this is completely wrong.
Self-destructing inside of shields only happens when an overwhelming force is bashing your tower. More invasions != more pew aside from shooting structures.
More tears? Sure. Why is that a good thing? Watch all the noobs move out of w-space and then you've got nothing left to PVP against. [edit]: and YES I mean NOTHING because the GOOD pvpers will still deny you kills in other ways.
More contracts for wspace Mercs: See above. Nobody is going to bother defending a system against overwhelming forces. They'll just wait for you to reinforce the tower and self-destruct everything in a safespot right before or right after downtime.
Finally, Self-destructing USUALLY only comes up in the case of capital ships. What if they just log that toon off for 2 weeks. What are you going to do? Camp them forever? Nerf logging off when your tower is getting sieged? The current mechanics are fine. Catch them outside their tower, bash their tower, if they want to throw away ships for the insurance that's their call.
Kairos Syndicate is a fine pvp corp, and as such I'm a little surprised that you're so short-sighted. Everything that you kill is dependent on those force-fields; if you're running around bashing towers all day who is going to be left to shoot in 3 months after the change?
TLDR; There's been a big change on the forums lately for people wanting their PVP spoon-fed to them. Buck up and get out there and do the hunting like the rest of us. There will be days where you can't catch anybody, and there will be days where you have to bash a tower to get a fight. And there will be better days where you catch an Orca dropping a tower; or a C4 fleet that's not being careful enough. That's EVE PVP. If you're not used to it by now join Red Vs. Blue. That's instant action. This is real pvp.
Svodola Darkfury. |
Maggeridon Thoraz
Reconfiguration Nation Transmission Lost
32
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 10:00:00 -
[19] - Quote
Paikis wrote:
As far as this thread goes, its just another temper tantrum from a large alliance that gets annoyed when they can't get easy kills by blobbing a smaller group of people. When you have a small corp of 20 guys and you see 10 dreads, 4 carriers and 20-30 T3 cruisers with 4-5 logis supporting show up in your home, what are you going to do? You can't fight that.
Fair enough if there are roughly even numbers, fight, or even if you think you can kill a couple before you get podded, fight. But when the second you poke your nose out of the shield you're going to die, whats the incentive to fight? I'd be self-destructing everything I could in that situation.
Denying you your kill-mail farm is almost as good a win as killing you (but not quite).
Bring a similar sized force and I'll be laughing all the way to my ships to shoot you. Bring a blob and I'll be doing my best to deny you everything I can.
I think most of the allies of wh will step down for a fight and stick to their promises if its not their plan to evict the corp /alliance from the controlled system...
Ashimats Blog http://rnat-postmortem.blogspot.se/2012/09/wormhole-defense-slightly-different.html wrote:
Negotiations If coming under attack, speak up! You need all the information you can get on why this is happening, and a good way to get that is to talk with the attackers directly.
And you never know, the situation might be solvable by other means than you losing a lot of ships, and the attackers wasting a few days guarding WHs.
Remember that the longer it goes, the more time and effort have been put into the sige by the attackers and the harder it gets for them to withdraw. If you want to negotiate something, do that before they have reinforced your POSes, and absolutely before they spent any time waiting on a POS coming out of REO. That's the most boring part of a siege.
If possible, give them what they want! If you think you will not have any chance of (or will to) defending and they say they only came for a fight, give them one! What's the big deal? You not rather lose a few ships than all the time you invested into the POS?
Be creative! If they are 30 man strong and you got 5 guys online, offer to resolve matters "like men" with a 5 vs 5 at some planet. You show that you trust them to honour it, and they might get the fight they where looking for. Of course they might use that as a chance to pod you all out of the system, you need to make a assessment of who you are dealing with. However, if they are 30 man strong, chances are they are committed to see the POS gone. It might already have escalated beyond point of no return. But keep in mind that a lot of w-space alliances have a special kind of code they live by. Most will honour deals.
If they are after the system, consider offering to sell it cheap to them instead. If you have resources in the form of capitals that can't be moved out, use them to negotiate the price of the system. If you can't defend, you obviously stand to lose everything, but what you are negotiating is what they can gain.
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Cipreh
Clann Fian Transmission Lost
97
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Posted - 2012.12.04 10:14:00 -
[20] - Quote
Svodola Darkfury wrote:
TLDR; There's been a big change on the forums lately for people wanting their PVP spoon-fed to them. Buck up and get out there and do the hunting like the rest of us. There will be days where you can't catch anybody, and there will be days where you have to bash a tower to get a fight. And there will be better days where you catch an Orca dropping a tower; or a C4 fleet that's not being careful enough. That's EVE PVP. If you're not used to it by now join Red Vs. Blue. That's instant action. This is real pvp.
Svodola Darkfury.
This!
I do agree that people self destructing inside force fields is frustrating, particularly for an invading force who's spent the time setting up and effort pulling off the often daunting logistics of such an operation, only to see the opposing side give up and self destruct without a fight. People are risk adverse, particularly if they aren't "PvP" players, no amount of patching or new mechanics will be able to change that.
Even if you disallow self-destructing in a POS, you will still see people figuring out ways to deny us fights and assets.
To really improve the quality of pvp in w-space, we need a new conflict driver.
My suggestion has been to reduce the number of unoccupied w-space systems for certain classes (class 5 specifically), which I feel will drive conflict by bringing people into contact with each other more often, and forcing people to fight over access to the newly limited resources.
Not only does it lessen the number of empty holes, it will help to drive the price of w-space gases and loot higher due to reduction of available resources from all the empty systems. If there aren't tons of empty systems, you will see less "farming" corps setting up, because the ability to defend yourself would become a necessity.
Another option would be to increase the number of connections to and from certain classes, perhaps allowing more systems to have dual statics, again, if CCP makes it so people run into each other more often, the inevitable explosions will happen.
It's human nature. |
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MadbaM
Hard Knocks Inc.
8
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Posted - 2012.12.04 11:01:00 -
[21] - Quote
I think the new outpost system that has already been discussed will change allot of things for us in WH's and will render this SD issue kind of pointless. Like has already been mentioned the trashing system is the real issue we should be trying to prevent rather than attempting to change the semi broken situation we currently have.
Personally i don't like SD in shield's and no mater what some people have said in this thread most farmers don't even attempt to defend even an even fight. They put all there **** in a suitcase and logg burning everything else on there way out, but this in fairness to them is something that's been done for 1000's of years in the real world why not here.
But i do want more communication from CCP during the development of the new system after all prevention is beater than cure, nobody wants a system that has to be constantly bodged over the year following its release to make work. |
RioCrokite
The Kairos Syndicate Transmission Lost
5
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 11:22:00 -
[22] - Quote
Gnaw LF wrote:You guys are forgetting something, I mean go back and read the information Two Step passed down from CCP. CCP is not happy with maintaining multiple inventory systems, that is why the new POS system is going to be a mini-outpost. That means you will now share the same inventory mechanic as all the other outpost in the game, which means you will be able to TRASH items and ships. No more waiting two minutes, no more screenshots from invading forces depicting the amount of stuff you had to SD, now everyone can just SHIFT-click and Trash.
Why do you guys think I have been so vocal against the new system? Because if it does bring us the benefits of all that Outposts have to offer, trashing items is going to be one of them. On the other hand I absolutely abhor the idea of preventing SDing in w-space, unlike HS / low / Null w-space is already harsh on assets of the defending force, if they get podded out they can say goodbye to them. You literally get to make one mistake as a defender in w-space and I don't see asset denial as a major problem. I also have to state that I spent a bit of time working with Hard Knocks in defense of their system this weekend, and more invasions is not what w-space needs. Trust me on that.
What about disabling 'thrash' button in new wspace POSes? Shouldn't be that difficult to implement code-wise. All that is needed is our support. And people have been living without 'thrash' ability in poses for ages now.
On the other hand Gnaw, I hate to see hundreds of corps that are in-active in wspace. No one benefits from poses with inactive corps :/
To Cipreh:
That's actually a very good idea - cutting c5 systems i.e. by half would make farming and escalating a bit more risky. But I can bet that c5/c6 boys won't be supporting this since this would cut their risk-free-solo-boxing-150km-sniper-dreads-carriers-alt-corp income too much.
To Svodola Darkfury:
Actually according to whkills.info I and my dps alts killed twice as much ISKs as your char (excluding pod mods ofc) so you can assume I've been doing at least as much lower class wh diving as you.
From what I read the general mood among big boys is that we are happy with SD as it is now. Fair enough. Also good bye to pos passwords and stealing ships floating inside :( |
MadbaM
Hard Knocks Inc.
8
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 11:43:00 -
[23] - Quote
Removing the trashing option once your outpost is re-enforced would seem more appropriate maybe? |
Maggeridon Thoraz
Reconfiguration Nation Transmission Lost
32
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 12:29:00 -
[24] - Quote
MadbaM wrote:Removing the trashing option once your outpost is re-enforced would seem more appropriate maybe?
this |
Bleedingthrough
Raptor Navy Not Yet Critical
0
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 13:30:00 -
[25] - Quote
What the OP suggests would have very severe consequences for any smaller and independent WH entity.
For instance, it is ridiculous to assume an unaffiliated C4 entity can defend themselves against eviction from a C5+ aggressor that is bored enough to attempt this. The aggressor will outgun and out number the defender in any way.
Smaller entities serve as a punching ball already and there is really is no need to implement additional threats to them.
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Svodola Darkfury
Heaven's End League of Infamy
90
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 19:34:00 -
[26] - Quote
RioCrokite wrote:
To Svodola Darkfury:
Actually according to whkills.info I and my dps alts killed twice as much ISKs as your char (excluding pod mods ofc) so you can assume I've been doing at least as much lower class wh diving as you.
What you did there:
1. Find the least used Killboard 2. Add my main to my alts to make myself look better 3. Try to make the forum people think I'm good.
I'm not the best PVPer in the world, AT ALL. I'm ranked in the 13,000s on Battleclinic. I've still got 1071 kills, 111 losses, which is a 9.65:1 ratio, and 86 Billion recorded in destruction on my personal killboard. Battleclinic records me at 94.43 billion ISK destroyed, and 963 kills 112 losses which is a 9:1 ratio.
The fact that you said "i've killed twice as much ISKs as your char" tells me right off you don't know anything about PVP. There are guys in null-sec that bash capital ships and towers all day, they've destroyed 20 trillion ISK... with 150-1000 of their buddies. They're not "better" than me. They're just different. You've killed fewer ships than I've lost in this game, and I've killed AND lost fewer ships than many of my former compatriots in Mad Bombers and Born-2-Kill.
There's a relative level of "know what the hell you're talking about" that I don't think you have reached yet. Your record shows that you're a promising pilot; it's just too bad you're too ignorant for words.
Svodola Darkfury. |
Joshua Lorne
The Night Crew The Night Crew Alliance
15
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Posted - 2012.12.04 20:00:00 -
[27] - Quote
there are some features that may be nice, and it's pretty clear force fields are going to go bye-bye, and so I'll adapt to whatever changes come. However, I still feel that WH mechanics are NOT broken and are fine as is.
I simply believe more people need to learn to adapt their play style to better suit the game mechanics rather then ***** on the forums to change the game mechanics to better suit their play style.
But maybe that's just me |
Raptors Mole
The Pheasant Pluckers
34
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 22:11:00 -
[28] - Quote
Rio and Svodola,
Meet at the sun in the T3 of your choice, then we will see if........
R&K read the forums and drop a logofski cap fleet on you |
Svodola Darkfury
Heaven's End League of Infamy
91
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 23:01:00 -
[29] - Quote
Raptors Mole wrote:Rio and Svodola, Meet at the sun in the T3 of your choice, then we will see if........ R&K read the forums and drop a logofski cap fleet on you
Approved! J100200 in 3 days, at the sun, MAKE YOUR PREPARATIONS R&K!
:D |
Akyla Dey
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
25
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 00:29:00 -
[30] - Quote
To be honest, this mechanic is touted by larger wormhole corps for combat with larger wormhole corps. As in C5/C6. Nobody likes POS bashing, but it happens for a variety of reasons. Normally because you repeatedly won't man up and fight, but also because you did something to really **** another group off or some other perceived slight. It's rarely 'to take all your stuff', and I doubt that will change if they fix SDing in POSs.
To effectively expel someone from a system, you have to get a scan alt in, watch the system for days, gather intel, scan out low/nullsec holes at odd hours to move caps in or chain roll statics. You infiltrate over days or weeks then finally mobilize, spend a weekend maintaining hole control and finally blow the hell out of the other guy, and hopefully get a good fight out of the deal. Usually you spend 48 hours watching them pop on and offline, SDing ships of all sizes (even the frigates). Does this sound like fun to you? While you can have a sense of pride from a job well done, I assure you it's not fun at all. Couple that with the fact that most major corps home holes are ridiculously well defended with Death Stars, full moon coverage, etc, that just rolling into someone and starting to pop their stuff isn't going to happen.
What removing SDing from POSs does is make people come out and fight. Better to go down blazing than give it up to your enemies. The change does nothing but promote more PvP. As for you guys living in lower class wormholes, the only people that are going to siege you are people of your own size. If you live in a C2, nobody in a C5 cares what you have or what you do. You don't have Cap capable statics, you generally don't have anything of worth to us. We love ganking your haulers and site runners, but that's the extent of the lovefest. If you can't secure your assets from people in BSs and BCs, well... sorry. But nothing changes. You're not much more of a target than you were before, and you should be prepared to defend yourself accordingly (this is still 0.0 space, remember?).
I agree about the size of towers/lower class wspace thing being stupid and ill thought out. Just like the argument above, there's no reason for big bad corps to invade lower class holes. We've got a good thing going blowing each other up, sieging you guys is not only not fun and not profitable, it's just not worth the effort. Keep the Large Towers in the lower class holes, let them beat each other up with subcaps and see if there's profit in it. My guess is other than an initial rush to try it out, very little will change in the long run.
tl;dr No SD in FF = MOAR PVP! Smaller guys generally unaffected.
^^ My own ideas and not my corp's blah blah blah disclaimer |
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