Pages: [1] :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |

BORG HELLinHEAVEN
Vera Cruz. Nulli Secunda
1
|
Posted - 2012.12.06 22:31:00 -
[1] - Quote
Hi,
Am going to show a solution to a question i think is a big problem in this game: (not really sure if the idea is original in this forum, but it appears to be)
First:
I really have nothing against people using their cloak ship to sneak around and grab unaware people, have safe eyes for intel or any purpose a cloaker can accomplish.
The problem:
My concern is that cloak players can let the ship there in the system floating, unscanable; while they go sleep, work, play other games or anything else. This, for me, is anything different from booting! The presence of the enemies ship in a system prevents careful people to keep their business in the system afraid of a attack or hot drop, things that a active player can do (and for active players there is no problem if he can be there in his PC for 24/7). However a player can leave his account logged in and cloaked in the system playing a passive role as if he is there to control the ship, but he is not there. Its the same as booting for me.
A solution:
When a player cloak-¦, his ship starts to bleed a ion of some gas related to the ship race, (EX: Heliun for caldari, Xenon for galent, Radonium minmatar and Argoniun for ammar). If the ship remains x min time without warp to anywhere else in the system, that ion will accumulate to a threshold detectable by ions scan probes, so players can warp right on top of the cloaker if he goes afk or by mistake do not warp elsewhere in a given time. This way, afk cloakers can still doing his valid job while they are active and smart enough. And afk ones would be found with the probes.
The idea can be extended to find cloak fleets: when a lot of cloak ships are all together, the ion in space accumulates to the threshold limit faster, so cloak blobs would need to move faster or risk to be probed.
For EVE:
The solution i proposed intended to use current eve mechanics, new opportunities (hunt cloakers), news skills can be associated as well and prevent afk people to do passive **** (passive harassment of a system)
And, its really like StarTrek way to find things: : Spoke - deep field scans now
|

Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
286
|
Posted - 2012.12.06 22:41:00 -
[2] - Quote
First Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |

Marie Hartinez
Aries Munitions and Defense
91
|
Posted - 2012.12.06 22:43:00 -
[3] - Quote
*looks at calender* must be that time of year again.
This has been debated for what, since the beginning of EVE, or somewhere close to that.
If the Devs were going to change this, they would of done it long before now.
Also, HTFU, STFU, yadda yadda. Surrender is still your slightly less painful option. |

Sean Parisi
Project Cerberus Caldari State Capturing
54
|
Posted - 2012.12.06 22:49:00 -
[4] - Quote
Over exaggeration of AFK cloaker's is over exaggeration. I still don't get why so many people get ridiculously paranoid over cloakers. |

Michael Loney
Skullspace Industries
39
|
Posted - 2012.12.06 23:33:00 -
[5] - Quote
So all I have to do is keep moving? * double click * on the middle of nowhere, go back to bed.
|

Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
40
|
Posted - 2012.12.06 23:49:00 -
[6] - Quote
so I afk by the star in the system and your scanner cannot tell the difference between my ions coming off the ship and exhaust gases of that star I am chilling by.
|

Ashbourne
Kaesong Kosmonauts Test Alliance Please Ignore
3
|
Posted - 2012.12.07 00:00:00 -
[7] - Quote
Does feel a bit wrong that an cloaked player can just chilled in enemy territory for hours with nothing being done about them though.
I had an idea for this too, with disposable 'chaff' bombs. You send them out like probes, they pop and for a short duration, anything that's cloaked in their AoE gives off a weak signature probes can detect.
It would be slow work that wouldn't catch out an active player unless they're careless. Not sure how they'd find and decloak them once they warp in though. |

Kitt JT
League of Non-Aligned Worlds Nulli Secunda
147
|
Posted - 2012.12.07 01:43:00 -
[8] - Quote
the AFK guy isn't the problem. its the guy who is hunting, and is not afk.
the issue with cloaking isn't an issue with cloaking.
its an issue with local, and how its a perfect intelligence tool. |

Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Mordus Angels
774
|
Posted - 2012.12.07 02:10:00 -
[9] - Quote
I shall try to explain a few details that are usually glossed over crudely, but hold the truth.
AFK Cloaking: This is done in response to Local Chat flawlessly reporting pilot presence. It dumbs down the interaction between pilots by outright telling all parties who is present. Without this crutch, use of sensors, strategy, and cooperation would be needed to fill the void. What does it achieve? It creates a flaw in the usual flow of cause and effect for life in many systems. Often, a neutral or hostile pilot is seen entering, and activity is suspended until they leave. There is trivial risk, as standard procedure often involves being ready to get safe in the time frame provided by this instant alarm. Hostile pilots who refuse to leave are subsequently hunted down. When the "AFK Cloaking" pilot enters, he disrupts this process, by not leaving. Further, since this intel tool persistently shows him present, the default response of suspending activity is perpetually pushed as chosen reaction. This devalues the intel tool, as it is now being used against the native PvE pilots instead of helping them. If local were removed, sensors strategy and cooperation would be placed as valuable means of protecting PvE income assets. It would also be pointless to AFK cloak, as noone would be aware of your presence while you were passive. It is widely anticipated that any change to local which stopped free cloaking awareness would also include a means to hunt cloaked ships.
Summary: That free intel tool favored by so many can be used by the hunters too.
Hot Dropping: Bridging is intended to bypass reinforced blockades and travel time. Here, it has been fine tuned to avoid advertising the presence of a fleet to the free intel tool as well by delaying the easily recognizable population spike till the last possible moment. The intention is to deny the warning local provides, although it still reports the presence of the cyno boat enough to be associated with AFK Cloaking instead. Quite simply, while PvE pilots would never resume regular activities with a hostile fleet present, they are sometimes willing to gamble over whether a cloaked vessel represents that level of threat at a given time.
Sorry about the length, but the mindless repetition of "AFK Cloaking is bad mmkay" sounds foolish. Cloaking being on a ten minute manual cycle timer? (Author: Bree Okanata) Fine. As long as there is a ten minute timer for being docked in a station. Also, you can't stop moving in the game. Just add in a way so every ten minutes you are randomly warped to the nearest other player. Keeps people from going AFK. |

ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
1199
|
Posted - 2012.12.07 02:29:00 -
[10] - Quote
Nikk Narrel wrote:AFK Cloaking: This is done in response to Local Chat flawlessly reporting pilot presence. It dumbs down the interaction between pilots by outright telling all parties who is present. Without this crutch, use of sensors, strategy, and cooperation would be needed to fill the void. What does it achieve? It creates a flaw in the usual flow of cause and effect for life in many systems. Often, a neutral or hostile pilot is seen entering, and activity is suspended until they leave. There is trivial risk, as standard procedure often involves being ready to get safe in the time frame provided by this instant alarm. Hostile pilots who refuse to leave are subsequently hunted down. When the "AFK Cloaking" pilot enters, he disrupts this process, by not leaving. Further, since this intel tool persistently shows him present, the default response of suspending activity is perpetually pushed as chosen reaction. This devalues the intel tool, as it is now being used against the native PvE pilots instead of helping them. If local were removed, sensors strategy and cooperation would be placed as valuable means of protecting PvE income assets. It would also be pointless to AFK cloak, as noone would be aware of your presence while you were passive. Saving for future copy pasting. Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective. |
|

AFK Cloaker
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
63
|
Posted - 2012.12.07 04:40:00 -
[11] - Quote
. |

Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
289
|
Posted - 2012.12.07 04:57:00 -
[12] - Quote
Nobody move, there is an afk cloaker in this thread. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |

Dawn DiDacyria
Hybrid Flare strange tactical and research syndicate
12
|
Posted - 2012.12.07 05:10:00 -
[13] - Quote
I do understand the problem and agree that it is a problem. Unfortunately I can see that there is no easy solution. Setting up conditions to stay cloaked, or to stay undetectable, will only serve to extend the current afk-macro-miner scripts to the afk-cloakers as well, and leave EVE with the same problem anyway It just will not solve anything.
Until CCP figures out a way to stop macros this problem will persist.
Cheers |

Raphael Celestine
Sovereign Front
14
|
Posted - 2012.12.07 08:46:00 -
[14] - Quote
This thread again. 
Nikk summed things up pretty well, but I'll throw in my 2c anyway.
EVE is a PvP game in a persistent world with significant consequences to losing a battle. That creates positive feedback loops in any repeated battles between the same combatants. As such, it must have options for asymmetric combat, otherwise any pretence at balance vanishes.
As things stand, AFK cloaking is the only practical form of guerilla warfare in EVE.
Potential targets in EVE fall into three main categories: Structures, PvP pilots and PvE/industry pilots. The entire point of asymmetric combat is not to fight your opponent's PvP fleets directly, which rules them out. Reinforcement timers mean that you can't kill a structure without fighting those PvP fleets, so they're out as well. That leaves PvE pilots as the primary prey of guerilla operations (as they should be).
The trouble is, current game mechanics mean that an alert PvE pilot can avoid an attack relatively easily. Between POSes and stations, he can always have an unbreachable sanctuary that is only a warp away. Local chat means that he is warned instantly when a potential attacker arrives in system, well before the newcomer is in position to threaten him. To succeed, the attacker has to locate, travel to and tackle their target faster than said target can align and dock. If the PvE pilot is prealigned, he can be completely safe within one or two seconds.
AFK cloaking allows the attacker to disrupt their opponent's PvE operations despite the fact that the defenders have near-complete control over how and when combat can occur. By putting a cloaked ship in system, they create a threat that the defender can't drive off; the opposition is then left with the difficult choice of stopping all PvE or risking an attack. (Note that the choice is still entirely in the defender's hands: if they dock up, there's nothing the cloaky pilot can do)
None of that means that it's a good way to implement an asymmetric warfare mechanic. A system that essentially relies on frustrating your targets enough to make them take a risk doesn't fit well with a game that is supposed to be fun to play for both sides, and the current dynamic of AFK cloaking combined with hot-drops tends to produce either a onesided massacre or no fight at all. There are undoubtedly other, better ways of achieving that goal - but AFK cloaking can't be removed until after one of them is implemented. If you'd like to see it go the way of the dodo, find a replacement that you think is fair to both sides and then start pestering CCP to implement it.
TLDR: AFK cloaking is a poor way of implementing guerilla warfare, but it's the only one we've got right now. If you want to get rid of it, come up with a replacement rather than just complaining. |

Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
10775
|
Posted - 2012.12.07 08:51:00 -
[15] - Quote
Nikk Narrel has pretty much covered all the bases.
TL:DR. Local is your problem, not cloaks.
CCP Zulu..... Forcing players to dock at the captain's quarters is a form of what we actually wanted to get through, which is making Incarna a seamless part of the EVE Online experience. |

Verity Sovereign
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
248
|
Posted - 2012.12.07 10:00:00 -
[16] - Quote
BORG HELLinHEAVEN wrote:The problem:
My concern is that cloak players can let the ship there in the system floating, unscanable; while they go sleep, work, play other games or anything else. This, for me, is anything different from booting! The presence of the enemies ship in a system prevents careful people to keep their business in the system afraid of a attack or hot drop, things that a active player can do (and for active players there is no problem if he can be there in his PC for 24/7). However a player can leave his account logged in and cloaked in the system playing a passive role as if he is there to control the ship, but he is not there. Its the same as booting for me.
A solution:
This is not a problem, therefore no solution is needed.
The problem is your local channel. |

Midnight Pheonix
Arma Purgatorium Templis Dragonaors
7
|
Posted - 2012.12.07 10:07:00 -
[17] - Quote
The "Final Solution" to afk cloaking is the death of local chat and the instant intel it provides to the peons of large alliances.
You may think it's unfair that people can sit in your system all day for weeks and make you feel unsafe, I think it's unfair that NAP'd alliances can go on deployments for months and not have to worry about major losses coming from their PVE sections. Nullsec is 'supposed' to be the most dangerous area of space, not a haven for the risk averse.
HTFU and drop the sad story routine, nobody wants to hear it. |

Jint Hikaru
OffWorld Exploration Inc
361
|
Posted - 2012.12.07 12:37:00 -
[18] - Quote
BORG HELLinHEAVEN wrote:Hi,
Am going to show a solution to a question i think is a big problem in this game: (not really sure if the idea is original in this forum, but it appears to be)
Nope, extreamly un-original. I am presuming you made exactly ZERO attempt to search for previously posted ideas before posting this garbage.
You lack of searching leads me to believe you are a typical lazy null-bear who would rather cry on the forums than go out to try and catch the cloaker in game....
Lets take this system you are talking about, your problem is that you see someone you dont know on local, and you cant find him, so you dont want to go out mining or whatever. What about the people AFK in the station or POS..... (those people who may be a threat to a solo covert ops vessle) I notice your 'solution' does not address them. Seems a bit one sided there....
Once again another game changing idea proposed by a 2month old noob. Seriously, can we get a 6month age minimum on posting game changing ideas.
Jint Hikaru - Miner / Salvager / Explorer / SpaceBum In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. |

DJ P0N-3
Table Flippendeavors
88
|
Posted - 2012.12.07 16:43:00 -
[19] - Quote
Oh my stars and garters! Time to POS up and log out! |

Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Mordus Angels
777
|
Posted - 2012.12.07 16:50:00 -
[20] - Quote
People keep talking about you... do you have any other comments? Cloaking being on a ten minute manual cycle timer? (Author: Bree Okanata) Fine. As long as there is a ten minute timer for being docked in a station. Also, you can't stop moving in the game. Just add in a way so every ten minutes you are randomly warped to the nearest other player. Keeps people from going AFK. |
|

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
793
|
Posted - 2012.12.07 17:08:00 -
[21] - Quote
Nikk Narrel wrote:AFK Cloaking: This is done in response to Local Chat flawlessly reporting pilot presence. It dumbs down the interaction between pilots by outright telling all parties who is present. Without this crutch, use of sensors, strategy, and cooperation would be needed to fill the void. What does it achieve? It creates a flaw in the usual flow of cause and effect for life in many systems. Often, a neutral or hostile pilot is seen entering, and activity is suspended until they leave. There is trivial risk, as standard procedure often involves being ready to get safe in the time frame provided by this instant alarm. Hostile pilots who refuse to leave are subsequently hunted down. When the "AFK Cloaking" pilot enters, he disrupts this process, by not leaving. Further, since this intel tool persistently shows him present, the default response of suspending activity is perpetually pushed as chosen reaction. This devalues the intel tool, as it is now being used against the native PvE pilots instead of helping them. If local were removed, sensors strategy and cooperation would be placed as valuable means of protecting PvE income assets. It would also be pointless to AFK cloak, as noone would be aware of your presence while you were passive.
I too am quoting this.... It is a very good synopsis of the AFK-cloaker vs Local Chat association, and any discussion on "fixing AFK cloakers" needs to address "Local Chat being used as an intel tool too".
|

Crimeo Khamsi
AirHogs Zulu People
53
|
Posted - 2012.12.07 19:05:00 -
[22] - Quote
+1 to the above post and quote. Although only the last sentence is really even necessary to summarize the argument:
"There would be no reason to AFK cloak, if there weren't a magical system of intelligence that immediately tells people who entered a system with no effort expended" |

Daichi Yamato
Swamp Bucket Swamp Bucket Empire
76
|
Posted - 2012.12.08 01:56:00 -
[23] - Quote
Nikk Narrel wrote:I shall try to explain a few details that are usually glossed over crudely, but hold the truth.
AFK Cloaking: This is done in response to Local Chat flawlessly reporting pilot presence. It dumbs down the interaction between pilots by outright telling all parties who is present. Without this crutch, use of sensors, strategy, and cooperation would be needed to fill the void. What does it achieve? It creates a flaw in the usual flow of cause and effect for life in many systems. Often, a neutral or hostile pilot is seen entering, and activity is suspended until they leave. There is trivial risk, as standard procedure often involves being ready to get safe in the time frame provided by this instant alarm. Hostile pilots who refuse to leave are subsequently hunted down. When the "AFK Cloaking" pilot enters, he disrupts this process, by not leaving. Further, since this intel tool persistently shows him present, the default response of suspending activity is perpetually pushed as chosen reaction. This devalues the intel tool, as it is now being used against the native PvE pilots instead of helping them. If local were removed, sensors strategy and cooperation would be placed as valuable means of protecting PvE income assets. It would also be pointless to AFK cloak, as noone would be aware of your presence while you were passive. It is widely anticipated that any change to local which stopped free cloaking awareness would also include a means to hunt cloaked ships.
Summary: That free intel tool favored by so many can be used by the hunters too.
Hot Dropping: Bridging is intended to bypass reinforced blockades and travel time. Here, it has been fine tuned to avoid advertising the presence of a fleet to the free intel tool as well by delaying the easily recognizable population spike till the last possible moment. The intention is to deny the warning local provides, although it still reports the presence of the cyno boat enough to be associated with AFK Cloaking instead. Quite simply, while PvE pilots would never resume regular activities with a hostile fleet present, they are sometimes willing to gamble over whether a cloaked vessel represents that level of threat at a given time.
Sorry about the length, but the mindless repetition of "AFK Cloaking is bad mmkay" sounds foolish.
+1 |

Azrael Dinn
The 20th Legion Mildly Sober
18
|
Posted - 2012.12.08 12:21:00 -
[24] - Quote
Well seems this keeps popping up again and again.
I realy don't care what the solution is, as long as CCP does something about this AFK cloaking business. Also it's funny that CMS hasen't taken any sides on this one so far as it's actualy effect quite a big playerbase in the game. |

Lexar Mundi
DYNAMIC INTERVENTION ORPHANS OF EVE
22
|
Posted - 2012.12.08 18:17:00 -
[25] - Quote
BORG HELLinHEAVEN wrote:Hi,
Am going to show a solution to a question i think is a big problem in this game: (not really sure if the idea is original in this forum, but it appears to be)
First:
I really have nothing against people using their cloak ship to sneak around and grab unaware people, have safe eyes for intel or any purpose a cloaker can accomplish.
The problem:
My concern is that cloak players can let the ship there in the system floating, unscanable; while they go sleep, work, play other games or anything else. This, for me, is anything different from booting! The presence of the enemies ship in a system prevents careful people to keep their business in the system afraid of a attack or hot drop, things that a active player can do (and for active players there is no problem if he can be there in his PC for 24/7). However a player can leave his account logged in and cloaked in the system playing a passive role as if he is there to control the ship, but he is not there. Its the same as booting for me.
A solution:
When a player cloak-¦, his ship starts to bleed a ion of some gas related to the ship race, (EX: Heliun for caldari, Xenon for galent, Radonium minmatar and Argoniun for ammar). If the ship remains x min time without warp to anywhere else in the system, that ion will accumulate to a threshold detectable by ions scan probes, so players can warp right on top of the cloaker if he goes afk or by mistake do not warp elsewhere in a given time. This way, afk cloakers can still doing his valid job while they are active and smart enough. And afk ones would be found with the probes.
The idea can be extended to find cloak fleets: when a lot of cloak ships are all together, the ion in space accumulates to the threshold limit faster, so cloak blobs would need to move faster or risk to be probed.
For EVE:
The solution i proposed intended to use current eve mechanics, new opportunities (hunt cloakers), news skills can be associated as well and prevent afk people to do passive **** (passive harassment of a system)
And, its really like StarTrek way to find things: : Spoke - deep field scans now
Can you tell me 1 thing?
I afk cloak in system all day in a ship that has pretty low dps people have a problem with that
I afk sit in station all day in any ship in the game but yet people don't have a problem with that
>.> am I missing something here?
I mean i know nul sec players want nul sec to be safer than high sec but come on...
If local was taken away from nul sec the problem would be solved. |

Beta Miner
COBRA Logistics Outer-Haven
4
|
Posted - 2012.12.08 19:43:00 -
[26] - Quote
Don't just sit there AFK! Say something!
I'm going crazy with fear!! I better dock up!
|
|
|
|
Pages: [1] :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |