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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 8 post(s) |
Party Lips
Blackened Skies
1
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Posted - 2011.10.29 22:13:00 -
[181] - Quote
El 1974 wrote:I'm dissapointed about the fact that CCP apparantly thinks this is worth fixing while people complain about so many other things. This is not high on the wishlist of players. Just do the simple thing: increase drop rates for the bottleneck items for rigs that are considered too expensive. Maybe make them a rare drop from T2 ships in missions as well. I find it strange that T2 ships in missions never drop t2 items.
About more elaborate solutions. I don't like the alchemy kind of nonsense. You could allow people to break up the items into their raw input materials (like tritanium). We don't need more stuff to build. Let us fly spaceships.
this is flying spaceships. pvp isn't the only area that is going to be worked on. I personly would rather see them work on the black op battleships then t2 rigs but this needs just as much fixing and i'm not complaining. |
Toku Jiang
Jiang Laboratories and Discovery
0
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Posted - 2011.10.31 20:47:00 -
[182] - Quote
There are several rigs that no one is ever going to use. If you want to know which ones those are just start looking at all of the ship fit websites and you will see everything that is used on nearly every fit and rigs that are never mentioned.
I would personally like to see rigs simplified by doing the following;
Continue to have size categories for rigs small, medium, large, (I would add a capital size class)
Make a single master rig for each category. For instance a medium shield rig. This rig can do any of the shield rig options, you simply have to set it to what you want it to do, or if that is to hard to code, create scripts for them like other mods. You can keep the core compenents for salvage, its just simplified.
This will simplify T2 rigs and make them more affordable as T2 BPC's of these master rigs can be found in explorations sites or dropped as loot. This will avoid having the worthless T2 BPC's dropping all of the time, and it will make exploration of mag sites much more desireable as you will be getting T2 BPC's for armor rig, shield rig, etc.
Allow so many of a T1 salvage parts to be used to make a T2 part. This will increase will help hold the value of the T1 and T2 items as they will still be expensive to make.
This may drive the price down of T2 salvage compenents temporarily, however T2 rigs will become more widely used thus driving up demand, thus driving the price back up until there is a balance once demand and supply balance.
Problem solved.
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Nyla Skin
Pew Pew Corp Behold.
20
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Posted - 2011.11.01 09:50:00 -
[183] - Quote
CCP Fear wrote:
Make it more like mining. So that you aren't getting random loot here, but that you are in control (based on market needs) that you go and get Salvage X, which you know comes from Wreck Y.
I think that is more Sand-boxy than how it is currently.
I support this idea too. Also I can say that Ive always considered mag sites to be least profitable and gave up trying to do them long time ago since they only ever seemed to yield crap. Im not a pro explorer but still. |
Daenna Chrysi
Omega Foundry Unit Shadows Of Betrayal
2
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Posted - 2011.11.03 18:04:00 -
[184] - Quote
The T2 salvage alchemy should use nanite repair paste, the amount of it used depending on the skill with its use.
This would make common sense, wouldnt need any new skills to be added, and wouldnt require too much new training on a salvage alt. Common sense wise, you are expecting to make INTACT stuff from broken stuff, it would make sense that you need something fit the parts together and effectively turn it into a proper T2 salvage.
infrastructure wise, I would make a salvage reactor array for the POS towers. Utilizing the existing mechanics for reactions at the towers. |
Creat Posudol
Destined for Greatness Inc.
28
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Posted - 2011.11.04 14:41:00 -
[185] - Quote
Daenna Chrysi wrote:The T2 salvage alchemy should use nanite repair paste, the amount of it used depending on the skill with its use.
This would make common sense, wouldnt need any new skills to be added, and wouldnt require too much new training on a salvage alt. Common sense wise, you are expecting to make INTACT stuff from broken stuff, it would make sense that you need something fit the parts together and effectively turn it into a proper T2 salvage.
infrastructure wise, I would make a salvage reactor array for the POS towers. Utilizing the existing mechanics for reactions at the towers.
The repair paste part is actually a pretty neat idea. The salvage reactor would also work fine, but needs to be able to anchor in high sec. After all the majority of invention for/in empire space takes part in high. It would give another incentive to use a POS (even though with the state of public copy slots most will already use one already anyway). But from what I hear the reactors are pretty horrible to setup and/or connect. I never used them myself though. |
Gizan
Hounds Of War Bloodbound.
2
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Posted - 2011.11.04 18:42:00 -
[186] - Quote
fix some of the large armor rigs, so that they dont cost 650m for a rig few people use? |
Party Lips
Blackened Skies
1
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Posted - 2011.11.05 07:09:00 -
[187] - Quote
calibration costs are annoying on t2 rigs. oh look i can use t2 rigs but i can't fit two only one. eh screw it i will fit two of the t1 versions for more bonus. t2 rigs cost allot and most are worthless. |
Callic Veratar
Power of the Phoenix
73
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Posted - 2011.11.10 20:34:00 -
[188] - Quote
I haven't read the full thread, but I did read a lot of it:
I don't think there's a 'good' way to isolate specific types of salvage. You either end up introducing tons of crystals and scripts or adding a new convoluted system. I would like to see a few other concepts pulled in to rigs to make them more controllable without having them too simple.
- All damaged salvage becomes like drone goo, you can reprocess it into smaller pieces, non of which are unique, but certain types of salvage is better than others. - These sub-components become the basis of T1 rig manufacture - New blueprints introduced to combine the sub-components into the T2 salvage components
This system isn't perfect, but it could be used easily in the short term to clear out the bulk of the extra salvage without (hopefully) collapsing the T1 rig market while partially collapsing the T2 rig market. |
Demkaio
NerdHerd Intrepid Crossing
0
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Posted - 2011.11.11 10:59:00 -
[189] - Quote
I would love to see an introduction of X-Large rigs for supercap's and having large rigs for battleships and other capitals/large ships |
Salpun
Paramount Commerce
49
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Posted - 2011.11.13 11:21:00 -
[190] - Quote
very interesting topic. Some one at CCP must me scratching their head big time with all these great suggestions |
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DetKhord Saisio
Unchained Potential
9
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Posted - 2011.11.13 12:31:00 -
[191] - Quote
I put a rig idea in after reading this T2 Rig Production topic. Take a look (clicky linky) and leave any ideas you can think of.
Oh, basically the idea is you enter rigging before you enter the ship and can swap out for other rigging. |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
348
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Posted - 2011.11.13 12:49:00 -
[192] - Quote
Demkaio wrote:I would love to see an introduction of X-Large rigs for supercap's and having large rigs for battleships and other capitals/large ships
I'll go one more and say that there should be S/M/L/Cap/Scap rigs (5 levels).
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Carlos Aranda
Republic University Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2011.11.14 15:10:00 -
[193] - Quote
Scrapyard Bob wrote:Demkaio wrote:I would love to see an introduction of X-Large rigs for supercap's and having large rigs for battleships and other capitals/large ships I'll go one more and say that there should be S/M/L/Cap/Scap rigs (5 levels).
... and destroyer rigs?
some flaws:
1) There are only a handful rigs very popular, some sorts are not or make no sense at all, i.e. large cargo optimisation rigs and t2 even less. So first of all we better talk of a rebalance of all t1 and t2 rigs.
2) drop rates are broken, not according to the popularity of rigs
3) Copy time for Blueprint copies is too long (see 4) too ) and t2 rig production goes too slow, you can not start a real mass production.
4) Material requirements on blue prints need to be risen:
There is a work-around to produce more t2 rigs for rigs, which need only one digit ingredient. Use a 9 run decryptor for small and medium rig production and the numbers will not cahnge, because x% from 1 is often still 1 rounded. This needs to be fixed, too. Higher number of ingredients on blue prints are needed, if decryptors stay. Btw. t2 invention in this part is also broken. There are so many constellations, when it does not make sense to use a decryptor or like in this case a constellation, which should not be.
5) many rigs are useless, especially t2 rigs are often pre-nerfed:
Like gun rigs or EW rigs, nobody specializes on 1 t2 EW rig, if he gets a better result with 2x t1 rigs. Or nobody fits gun rigs, if he has to downgrade the guns to make them fit and the end result would be worse, because of smaller gun size.
6) resistance rigs: I like more the shield resistance rigs. Sometimes I can destroy them and fit for a new situation. But armor rigs are, because of the expensive armor plates, always a worse choice than just taking a trimark rig for more armor hitpoints.
7) Capital size rigs might be an idea. However it is certainly not needed to have i.e. Capital EW rigs. For Capitals are only Trimark, Capacitor and Defense Field rigs popular.
8) some t2 salvage is too expensive: sometimes I thought even about buying a some Amarr frigates, pack 200 in a Carrier, drop all and smartbomb them for the plates. (it is not worth it atm still, even at 30 mil., the result is too random and somebody else adapted the prices for it) so that is very broken, too. You salvage from a ship, which was maybe worth 9 mil a 30 mil part.
Let me rephrase this:
If you want to fix t2 rigs, plz fix t1 rigs, too. T1 rigs have simular flaws. Worthless salvage and useless rigs. So when you are on it, fix t1 rigs, fix t2 invention, fix other broken markets like t3, which is only defined by how many nanoribbons somebody collects in a wormhole. Hell, fix finally t2 moongo, because this is one source of too rich players and that titan flood. And if you want to make it really right, fix some not so major markets, like combat boosters, too. All the trouble with the reactions and transport etc.
off topic:
Somebody sits on a Tech moon, collects more ISK than he can use, so where to with it? A common answer is: Start supercapital production, which is also connected to being able to hold a Tech moon. So he even multiplies his ISK. I am sry, but 99 % of all other players can not compete with this and will never be able. Once they realize this, they either stay in their nische (i.e. guerilla warfare, high sec war, some kind of PVE) or they leave this game. This was always one of the major problems in Eve. Poor industry design, some players, who are already big, can monopolize fast and get so rich, they no more have to care about ISK. Such players play then on a metalevel, wich can be unhealthy for the game. They get the chance to influence too many, often in terms of griefing them, or start RMT or simply quit, because it bores them.
ideas, which are hm... maybe interesting:
- Alchemy sounds definitely good - CCP could redesign the whole salvage/rig thing. Take salvage and rigs out of the game. Let NPCs collect for a while leftover salvage and rigs.
a solution like with the fuel pellets is nice maybe.
Whatever you do, you need to make the small/medium rig production need more of the cheap stuff. And if you want to make t2 rigs more popular, you need to take out the expensive salvage parts for S and M rigs, often even for L.
ps: I wrote here:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=33529&find=unread
simular answer, because I found this thread later.
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Shana Matika
Perkone Caldari State
1
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Posted - 2011.11.14 16:55:00 -
[194] - Quote
Carlos Aranda wrote: 1) There are only a handful rigs very popular, some sorts are not or make no sense at all, i.e. large cargo optimisation rigs and t2 even less. So first of all we better talk of a rebalance of all t1 and t2 rigs.
But you realize that this are the only viable rigs for an Rorqual and most Orca out there right?
Small Sentry rig instead...just kidding but remember: Just you don't see a value in something doesn't mean there isn't any. Even a T2 Sentry rig can be used on one frig, the only question is: Is there any reason to deploy one sentry drone instead of 5 small T2.
But let get this right: Many points are true. Lot of rigs are out of balance - and as long as all rigs use different salvage this will result in "better" and "worse" modules.
Two suggested versions are my favorite:
First the "Reprocessing Approach": You can refine all salvage materials into lets say 4-8 basic parts. Like with ore and minerals at the moment.
pro: salvage already in game won't get "Trash" no "turnover" period - old system get removed and new one kicks in the day the patch arrives
con: again possible bottlenecks How to deal with actual T2 Salvage?
Second is the "Alchemy Approach" : T1 Salvage will be converted by some BP's or Reactions into T2 salvage
pro: No major overhaul of actual system Salvage can remain as is - an armor plate is still an armor plate
con: no remove of bottlenecks some parts will get expensive....let me correct this: freaking high expensive
Maybe some form of Combination is the "holy grail":
First all Salvage stay as is. You refine this into basic components. Then you can use alchemy to create T2 Components from T1 raws. T2 salvage refines into T2 Components off course. To reduce bottlenecks introduce a way to "build salvage" through blueprints (or reactions???) from basic minerals or transfer X amount of Salvage-Raw one to Y amount of another type (4 in 1 out or so). |
Carlos Aranda
Republic University Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2011.11.14 19:17:00 -
[195] - Quote
You are right. Large Cargohold optimization I is a bad example, because they have some okish sales in Jita. I fly no Orca/Rorqual, so I did not see that. I meant all the rigs, which have maybe 10 Sales in a month in Jita or less, compared to popular rigs, which sell in thousands of units per day. |
Amarrellah
Free Imperial Vikings Monkey Circus
0
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Posted - 2011.11.15 12:18:00 -
[196] - Quote
K. Dec patch is now on sisi... But T2 rig produktion is still the same, so is the change, nobody asked for, not comming. That'll be great!!! \o/ Im loosing isk atm, coz my trade orders is on hold, waiting for info about the change... Hope to know more soon! |
Vihura
Vihura Cor
0
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Posted - 2011.11.15 13:04:00 -
[197] - Quote
Prices of the T2 rigs are ******** T2 purger rig(medium) cost as much as 3 drake... |
Havegun Willtravel
Mobile Alcohol Processing Units
7
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Posted - 2011.11.18 22:10:00 -
[198] - Quote
Hi Fear,
Thanks for the coming buff's to the salvage sites and the sized rig bpc's, they'll both be very popular I'm sure.
In order to come to an equitable balance in the future I think you need to take a much wider view than just salvaging itself.
Guessing here, but I'd say 70% or maybe even 90% of salvage at the moment comes from mission running. Here's the problem, depending on which faction you run for the quality of the salvage goes from crap to epic. Galente get mostly Serpentis missions which overall drop the most useless salvage. Amar on the other hand mission against their main pirate foe's the Bloodraiders more regularly and they drop some of the best salvage in the game, plates and melted cap consoles.
Unless and until the rat drop rates get at least partially equalized ( Serpentis armor tank ships have as much chance to drop plates as Blood ) you're never going to have a solution. The market will be heavily dependent on how many people mission or rat in Amar space for all armor and energy grid rigs, and Minmatar space for cargo and speed rigs. So either equalize the drops or equalize the missions so that someone missioning in Caldari space has as many chances as someone in Amar of getting a Bloodraider mission.
The same should be true of mag sites. The buff's sound nice but if the new Serpentis mag sites just drop the T2 version of the already useless T1 Galente salvage then don't expect much to change. Very few people run the Serp mag sites now because they aren't worth the effort. If all they drop post Crucible is sized T2 drone rigs and hybrid rigs, expect this to go over with a huge yawn and bitter grumbling about how CCP love Amar and Minmatar.
As for alchemy I'm slightly doubtful it can solve the issues as it's being described atm. Invention I think might be a better route to go. Taking less desirable salvage and trying to invent something better would have several advantages. First would be failure. Every failure would help to burn out the huge stockpiles built up. Also this would rationalize the cost I believe, 10 or 20 pieces of junk to get just 1 good intact armor plate is an equitable risk v reward ratio. And people who ran mag sites and found the salvage would still be happy because the value of their finds wouldn't go down to much. The cost of invention combined with the 1 hour wait time would act as a sort of break on over production and be reasonably equitable overall.
An alternate route would be to subdivide the rigs into component parts to be assembled, somewhat like cap ships. Technically cap ship parts get built first, then get assembled into a final product. If rigs were broken down into small subs that needed to be assembled into a final product this could integrate more of the junk into the process.
One last idea might be to actually cut back on the excess variety of salvage dropped now. Instead of having distinct component parts for hybrid, laser, and projectile rigs, it could just he harmonized into Damaged Trigger. Cutting down to a smaller more core group of items would make distribution less of a hassle.
Or your idea of " I think that all rigs/salvage needs to be broken into smaller blocks " in which case a success in salvaging would generate an '' Armor Rod '' + Nanite Compound +Scrap metal = Armor Plate, or alternately Armor Rod +Loretz Fluid +Scrap Metal = Trit Bar. Then you just need to equalize the drops across all the components and you have a market driven solution.
As you mentioned in one of your replies " the building blocks are too racially themed" and I can not begin to agree with this enough. Until there is a much more equitable and realistic distribution across all the factions there will continue to be winners and losers which is just bad for the players and the game.
In my opinion the w space mechanic is the best in the game at the moment. In order to build hulls or subs you have to have a 100% integrated approach between killing sleepers, running radar and mag sites, mining gas and minerals, and invention. While some components are more valuable than others there's no such thing as junk. It all has to come together for the final product. This is where I'd like to see you aim. Salvaging +Mag sites + radar sites + invention all combined to create new products. Combining wrecked, damaged, and intact parts with decryptors and salvage components to be able to invent meta 4 mods would be the end game.
Thanks for all the new stuff and I look forward to future posts from you and your team. |
Grady Eltoren
Aviation Professionals for EVE
7
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Posted - 2011.11.22 04:58:00 -
[199] - Quote
I hope the Dev's are still here....
I am an avid explorer, industrialist and rig builder. I buy salvage mats and love to build with them and have for years...
These are my thoughts on the current situation.
The root of all evil lies in the balance between three things: the Blue Prints themselves, the Rigs themselves and the drops (aka sites or salvaging wrecks)
To make building rigs lucrative this should require two things A) GUTS and B) Brains (as is everything in EVE).
A) The guts part is from the guy who goes out and explores and takes time to find sites (So sites should ALWAYS be lucrative). and B) The brains is the time you took to train your toon to successfully create the BPCs which should always be rewarded the more you train.
SO - WHAT DOES THIS ALL MEAN?
Simply put, Don't bother or mess with Alchemy or breaking down salvage further into other parts like you are leaning towards CCP Fear. You are just making another buffer currency like Aurum and unnecessarily complicating things.
Again, EVE is about RISK vs. Reward right? So reward brains and guts.
To fix the problems with Rigs do the following to the system of things:
1) Again - SITES SHOULD ALWAYS BE LUCRATIVE (guts). 1a) Again - skills trained (ie. hacking or salvaging or archeology 5) should yield better results or results where it wouldn't be with less skills. 1b) Again - Investment in ships, rigs, Implants, to increase the above should always be there and the motivator.
2) LOOK AT RIGS! Go to the server logs and PULL THE NUMBERS of rigs sold by type like someone else mentioned. Use that data and the materials used to make those rigs to get your math for demand which you can then use later to correct deficiencies in price. 2a) While at the server look at stockpiles of loot. See how many things of lorentz fluid vs. Intact armor plates are piled up out there for example. That will reinforce what sort of rigs are being sold etc by seeing the excess because you know where they are used. For example, I am willing to bet good money, there are hardly any armor plates sitting around compared to lorentz fluid. 3) While at the server logs, look at the total loot dropped of all types (T1 and T2). Make sure they are equal (more on this later) and make sure that harder sites just drop MORE of it in quantity and not MORE in value as the value portion you want to be determined BY DEMAND!!! Then what this does is let you control the value of loot better by taking half the equation out of the picture. In other words - you just fixed the SUPPLY SIDE and you kept it in sync with the risk vs. reward part of the game.
That leaves the demand side and the last part of our 3 prong approach to salvaging and loot drop fairness.
5) Blue prints - THE DEMAND SIDE - This is how you control values. Take the numbers from the server that show demand for rigs and loot out there and USE IT to rebalance material requirements for rigs to use up MORE of these lesser used materials across the RIG building spectrum. For example - make more rigs require a 4th or 5th salvage material. Driving demand and price up.
Hopefully that makes perfect sense. It is late at night here and I deprately want rig building and loot drops to be a good bit of fun for all involved. I just think alchemy is a cruddy way to do it as is any other way than addressing the root of all problems which is really just a simple thing as supply / demand / and the blue prints that manipulate them.
Grady
Addendum - Other thoughts
1) INTRODUCE Capital sized rig versions. This just makes sense. The ship cost alot to begin with, so should the rigs to make it better. This would help reduce cap ships being used for everything too as it increases their value as being lost and losing more of an investment making them WORTH MORE AGAIN like they should be.
2) Can we please get some new rigs or subsystems or a ship that gives a bonus to the mini-professions? 3) Can we look at Rigs in general and FIX the ones that aren't working. Make them better or elimitate them? something!! (Note - this may cause some huge market swings if materials for said rigs are released - but what doesn't! haha) 4) If you are dead set on Alchemy or something - make it a fixed ratio of something like 10 to 1. But again - the root lies in demand which should be SOULY DRIVEN by Blueprint requirements. 2) Fix BPC drops in mag sites, etc to be better ME and PE |
Amarrellah
Free Imperial Vikings Monkey Circus
0
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Posted - 2011.11.28 14:22:00 -
[200] - Quote
Hey Increased the drop of T2 salvage components from ship wrecks. --- is that all the change to T2 rig production, or are there comming more?
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Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
3093
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Posted - 2012.02.06 17:44:00 -
[201] - Quote
Preserving this thread I would like to see it continued further.
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Amon Tyr
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
14
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Posted - 2012.02.07 05:25:00 -
[202] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:CCP Fear wrote:I like this one. The balancing of it might be tricky, but it looks (from 30 seconds of looking at it) quite easy to develop, as I don't think it requires any programming. Something i'll mull over for the next few days. I would run the numbers on how much idle salvage exists in hangars because I think you'll find it's enough to utterly crash the market forever if you do this. Not if you multiple mats reqs for rigs by 100 until that stockpile is gone, then take the reqs back down. |
Jas Dor
Republic University Minmatar Republic
42
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Posted - 2012.02.07 05:31:00 -
[203] - Quote
CCP Fear wrote:Howdy!
Im currently looking into the whole issue of the rigs. Going through the various loot tables and such I've already spotted quite a few problems, errors and so forth which I would like to fix, but I'm stepping lightly as I don't want to just go with guns blazing on this.
But I am interested in any sort of general feedback on what the situation is with T2 rigs from all angles. The salvage (difficulty, is it worth doing, is it too much of a nice?), to Mag. sites (are they worth doing?) , production and invention.
From our standpoint, we would like this to be a bit more commonplace, a bit more profitable for more people and less expensive.
We are also looking at a very short time-frame, so major changes might not happen. But I really like the idea of melting together T1 components into T2, so i'm gonna write it on a post-it and hang it on my monitor. It might be relatively easy to do, but the ratio might be a bit tricky to get right.
Any thoughts, ideas or suggestions are welcome!
That's going to play hell with T1 salvage prices. Also keep in mind that T2 rigs have more drawbacks and a higher calibration point cost. That said, I think melting is generally a good idea, but be ready for PvPer aggro (also be sure it isn't worth more to build a ship, insure it, then pop it for the salvage).
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