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Only mining 1 moon material ends up with net loss

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Serilla	Posted - 2005.05.16 05:53:00 - [1] So all in all our Income from the pos is expected to be 10.5m isk - 20m isk by market prices. Debits are.. 130k isk per unit of Clear Icicle 250k isk per unit of Glare Crust. Isotopes: 5,250 units of Liquid Ozone 5,250 units of Heavy Water 21,000 units of Helium Trade goods: 140 Units of Enriched Uranium 70k isk 875 units of Oxygen 79k isk 175 units of Mechanical Parts 98k isk 280 units of Coolant 238k isk 35 units of Robotics 140k isk What we need to purchase for the isotopes. 10 units of glare crust. 2.5 mill isk 70 units of clear icicle. 9.1 mill isk In total: Debits: 12.22 mill isk Income: 10.5 mill - 20mill isk Target price for Hafnium: 3,500 per unit Gross per week if we sell at this price: 14.7 mill
Shifar	Posted - 2005.05.16 07:45:00 - [2] I make a small proffit mining Caesium, small being under 5 mill per month but that's because I part mine part buy my fuel. I buy heavy water and liquid ozone at a cost of around 40 mill per month and mine for oxygen isotopes. If I were to buy my isotopes it would add another 84 million to my monthly fuel bill.
Serilla	Posted - 2005.05.16 08:24:00 - [3] Ah and to add to this.... We have our corp paying very little for our members mining time spent. They could mine normal ore and make similar to if not more isk/hour than mining ice to sell to the corp. That is the only reason it seems as if we are capable of making a profit.. Because we have to pay so little for ice that it does make ANY profit.
Dianabolic	Posted - 2005.05.16 11:10:00 - [4] Here's a tip: Base everything you do as if you're buying from market. Pay your members a good rate. If this becomes un-profitable pack away your pos until prices rise enough for it to BECOME profitable. Do that and you won't go bankrupt.
Frost Killer	Posted - 2005.05.16 15:18:00 - [5] Originally by: Dianabolic Here's a tip: Base everything you do as if you're buying from market. Pay your members a good rate. If this becomes un-profitable pack away your pos until prices rise enough for it to BECOME profitable. Do that and you won't go bankrupt. Totally correct. I buy fuel at market price for my station 140mil ish per week for both large POS's. Yet I still make a decent profit off them. And thats more then 50mil a week profit. --------------------------------------------------- Ummm ya....
bignuttz	Posted - 2005.05.16 15:39:00 - [6] Yes don't try going going into debt because you want to run it all the time. If for profit reasons unless its an extremly rare material, you won't make profit off a POS from just running that single one. You'll need reactions and such to make a profit off the station if thats what your after.
Zhou Yu	Posted - 2005.05.16 23:46:00 - [7] Edited by: Zhou Yu on 16/05/2005 23:46:35 Its a very tough time for small and medium POS owners at the moment, the little market that there is, is currently only profitable at the advanced material level. Anything below is so badly undervalued that you wont breakeven on your trade goods cost let alone ice fuel and time in effort. I don't blame ccp, as they have removed t2 parts from agents. but I truely think it will help if NPCs had limited buy orders for the raw and intermetiates. Currently for those producing raws and intermidiates, the prices for these need to be at least more than 5 times the price it is now. Raws need to be at least 1000 isk per unit Processed Materials need to be at least 5000 a unit. Sell for anything less and you are better off mining scordite. ______________________________________
Dianabolic	Posted - 2005.05.17 00:11:00 - [8] Originally by: Zhou Yu Raws need to be at least 1000 isk per unit Processed Materials need to be at least 5000 a unit. Sell for anything less and you are better off mining scordite. And WHEN people realise that, it will be so. And, fyi, on a single metal moon, that is doing no reaction, you actually need to earn 4k+ p/u to break even. Bang a simple reaction on there and it's less. You should always seek to put AT LEAST one reaction on a POS. Otherwise, unless it's a rare material, you're wasting your time and won't be competitive.
Serilla	Posted - 2005.05.17 08:34:00 - [9] i agree.. it would need to be 4k per unit at least for the rarity 8+ metals... the gases could be cheaper as they will be mined for those who have extra harvesters
Sieur NewT	Posted - 2005.05.17 09:12:00 - [10] I beleive in future the small pos will have a very good harvester times (1/1) then you will be able by having 1 small + 1 large to have a very nice profit. Always think that the idea is to mix things and exchange with others players, and not intended to do all at one moon. So small could be intensive raw mining place, medium dedicated to small reaction and large to advanced ones. What i am affraid after that is about not to have too many raws, droping their prices on market, but again if you have 1 small + one big pos it will not been a problem. ---- Sauvez les castors, mangez la foret!
Zhou Yu	Posted - 2005.05.17 16:33:00 - [11] Originally by: Dianabolic Originally by: Zhou Yu Raws need to be at least 1000 isk per unit Processed Materials need to be at least 5000 a unit. Sell for anything less and you are better off mining scordite. And WHEN people realise that, it will be so. And, fyi, on a single metal moon, that is doing no reaction, you actually need to earn 4k+ p/u to break even. Bang a simple reaction on there and it's less. You should always seek to put AT LEAST one reaction on a POS. Otherwise, unless it's a rare material, you're wasting your time and won't be competitive. Yes i understand what you're saying, I produce Silicon Diborite, Ceremaic Powder, Sulperic Acid, Carbon Polymers all from just one moon, not really high end stuff but needed no doubt. Unless everyone in the POS industry agrees not to gimp each other by placing thousands of raw and processed materials for 150 isk each on market then nothing will improve. Im just curious to know whether the people selling materials for these prices actually believe they are making a profit or whether they just dont care and its a byproductof what they mainly make. ______________________________________
Dianabolic	Posted - 2005.05.17 21:14:00 - [12] Originally by: Zhou Yu Originally by: Dianabolic Originally by: Zhou Yu Raws need to be at least 1000 isk per unit Processed Materials need to be at least 5000 a unit. Sell for anything less and you are better off mining scordite. And WHEN people realise that, it will be so. And, fyi, on a single metal moon, that is doing no reaction, you actually need to earn 4k+ p/u to break even. Bang a simple reaction on there and it's less. You should always seek to put AT LEAST one reaction on a POS. Otherwise, unless it's a rare material, you're wasting your time and won't be competitive. Yes i understand what you're saying, I produce Silicon Diborite, Ceremaic Powder, Sulperic Acid, Carbon Polymers all from just one moon, not really high end stuff but needed no doubt. Unless everyone in the POS industry agrees not to gimp each other by placing thousands of raw and processed materials for 150 isk each on market then nothing will improve. Im just curious to know whether the people selling materials for these prices actually believe they are making a profit or whether they just dont care and its a byproductof what they mainly make. If people do that I can only suggest that you buy these VASTLY underpriced goods, take them to your dual medium reactor array caldari tower, react them and then sell the simple reactions at a profit. There is ALWAYS money to be made, particularly out of peoples greed and / or lack of business accumen.
Fillmeup	Posted - 2005.05.18 00:18:00 - [13] We are only a smallish corp (80 members) and we currently run 6 POS's. To achieve this we have to buy all of our fuel, as Ice Mining just doesn't cut it as a fun activity and would stretch our member base too thin. We have noticed prices plummet of late, and demand has dropped slightly also, so we had to take it up a notch and produce an end product (Reactors). We may do it solo, but If you can somehow organise to be part of a production chain you can certainly show a profit in almost any situation. Lack of agent drops will also help this along greatly. Currently, the only way we make money is to mine / manufacture as many of the simple and complex reactions as you can for a specific end product. If you get it correct, you can make upwards of 100m - 1b per week, assuming you have a buyer The hauling is a total ***** tho ...
Dianabolic	Posted - 2005.05.18 01:11:00 - [14] wtb: freighters :(
Serilla	Posted - 2005.05.18 19:00:00 - [15] Well i have a buyer for my hafnium at 4k per unit.. If the pos acctually mines what i figure it should then i will be making a small profit. Here is how much i figure the Small pos should mine.. 100 units every 4 hours. 6 cycles per day. 7 days per week. That is 4200 units per week.. When i deployed and onlined the harvester it was around 1.5 hours from downtime.. to try and make sure it did not cycle while the game was down.. But it does not seem like i am acctually going to get 4200 units by saterday.
Schani Kratnorr	Posted - 2005.05.18 20:46:00 - [16] POS have delivered nothing extra to the game and are a complete waste of valuable programming time. In short CCP are a bunch of useless morons! -- "I am an expert in not caring. The trick is to stop giving a rat's ass about anyone else and start thinking about what YOU want, what YOU diserve, what the world ows YOU!" - Bender
Dianabolic	Posted - 2005.05.19 00:02:00 - [17] Originally by: Schani Kratnorr POS have delivered nothing extra to the game and are a complete waste of valuable programming time. In short CCP are a bunch of useless morons! Hi Schani :) And, I disagree.
Tas Devil	Posted - 2005.05.19 15:29:00 - [18] Originally by: Serilla Income: 10.5 mill - 20mill isk Target price for Hafnium: 3,500 per unit Gross per week if we sell at this price: 14.7 mill I think there is a terrible mistake here ... 100 units mined per hour... that's easily 2200 units a day (assuming the slight bug which makes some moon raw material lost at DT) 2200units a day is 15400 units a week... at 3500isk a pop...its 53,900,000 isk a week... you may want to do your math right before whinning that your POS is not profitable...
Tas Devil	Posted - 2005.05.19 15:31:00 - [19] If you do not suffer from the DT bug (I don't on my large POS mining vanadium and have heard of others that don't either) that's : 2400 units/day * 7 days * 3500 isk a unit =58,8M isk a week that's more then enough to cover large POS fuel requirements by far...
Frost Killer	Posted - 2005.05.19 15:59:00 - [20] Originally by: Tas Devil If you do not suffer from the DT bug (I don't on my large POS mining vanadium and have heard of others that don't either) that's : 2400 units/day * 7 days * 3500 isk a unit =58,8M isk a week that's more then enough to cover large POS fuel requirements by far... If your only making 58.8mil isk a week that means your in the hole isk wise. To run a large POS it costs 65-80mil per week depending on station load. Might beable to get it cheaper but still not that cheap. Unless you mine your own ice, then you can say its cheaper but really your still using money to power it. --------------------------------------------------- Ummm ya....
Tas Devil	Posted - 2005.05.19 17:05:00 - [21] Originally by: Frost Killer Originally by: Tas Devil If you do not suffer from the DT bug (I don't on my large POS mining vanadium and have heard of others that don't either) that's : 2400 units/day * 7 days * 3500 isk a unit =58,8M isk a week that's more then enough to cover large POS fuel requirements by far... If your only making 58.8mil isk a week that means your in the hole isk wise. To run a large POS it costs 65-80mil per week depending on station load. Might beable to get it cheaper but still not that cheap. Unless you mine your own ice, then you can say its cheaper but really your still using money to power it. That is quite untrue... Cost of a large POS per week are as follows : Industrial Fuels: 1M /day or 7M /week (its actually less then this more like 900k a day but for the sake of simplicity lets go on 1M a day) Ice Related Fuels: 285 white glaze will provide all the Nitrogen isotopes and all the Heavy water I need for my Caldari tower as well as about 45% of the liquid ozone I need (this assumes perfect refining skills and limited tax payment where you refine) Price per white glaze : 135k a pop in empire *Price of ice : 285 135 = 38,5M This still requires I buy about 8200 units of LO a week. that can be found in empire at 400isk a pop Cost of extra LO = 8200400=3,28M.* Total weekly cost of running a Large POS : 7 + 38,5 + 3,5 = 49M. Don't even start telling me you may have a different setup requiring more HW then mine ... jheavy water can be nought in empire for 150isk a pop...so the cost of Large POS using 100% CPU is 1,5M more then this. This is still within 50M a week using standard empire prices and no corp mining at all ! Sorry if your POS costs you 65-80M a week you are paying way too much somewhere matey I make a profit mining only 1 moon materiel on our large POS which is just sold in empire... and that's not counting the profits made on the intensive refinery array + the value of a POS to refit at for our PVPers etc...
Serilla	Posted - 2005.05.19 17:42:00 - [22] Originally by: Tas Devil Originally by: Serilla Income: 10.5 mill - 20mill isk Target price for Hafnium: 3,500 per unit Gross per week if we sell at this price: 14.7 mill I think there is a terrible mistake here ... 100 units mined per hour... that's easily 2200 units a day (assuming the slight bug which makes some moon raw material lost at DT) 2200units a day is 15400 units a week... at 3500isk a pop...its 53,900,000 isk a week... you may want to do your math right before whinning that your POS is not profitable... Hey tas, it is a small controll tower. 100 units every 4 hours, not every hour.
Tas Devil	Posted - 2005.05.19 17:55:00 - [23] Originally by: Serilla Originally by: Tas Devil Originally by: Serilla Income: 10.5 mill - 20mill isk Target price for Hafnium: 3,500 per unit Gross per week if we sell at this price: 14.7 mill I think there is a terrible mistake here ... 100 units mined per hour... that's easily 2200 units a day (assuming the slight bug which makes some moon raw material lost at DT) 2200units a day is 15400 units a week... at 3500isk a pop...its 53,900,000 isk a week... you may want to do your math right before whinning that your POS is not profitable... Hey tas, it is a small controll tower. 100 units every 4 hours, not every hour. ok then divide the revenue by 4 ... so more like 14,7M a week but devide the costs by 4 as well... so 12,5M a week... you still make a profit... and my calculations are only using easyly obtainable fuels in empire @ empire prices!
Serilla	Posted - 2005.05.19 19:49:00 - [24] yeah, exactly.. so even if u get a great deal on the price of the fuel.. say use the 12m price for fuel. And 10.8-20m per week of total sales of hafnium. 10.8m if u sell hafnium at 3000 per unit. 20m if you sell hafnium at 4000 per unit. you are still making at the MOST 8m profit per week. 8m is not worth the time spent in hauling goods to the POS and hauling the moon materials back to the empire market. Its just not as profitable as mining veldspar.........................
Tas Devil	Posted - 2005.05.19 23:22:00 - [25] Then mine Veldsapr... not all new introduction of featires in eve should be more profitable then the previous..that's infltionary pressure right there ... In my opinion its totally cool that a POS is not more profitable then mining veldsapr at the small stage...there are economies of scale for almost no more logistical work for a Large POS... if you only look at it from the angel of is it th most profitable activity in eve ...then probably just mine veldspar... the most profitable activities in eve aren't thought of ny the Devs in the first place anyway but by inventive players with some business acumen and a knack at spotting opportunities... what was my point about sppon feeding everything in this game ?
Serilla	Posted - 2005.05.20 08:07:00 - [26] the thing is that it is not more profitable than mining veldspar at any stage if your not able to do a reaction. A large takes 4x as much hauling time as the small. if you mine veldspar 4x as long you still make more isk than you do with a large pos
ERGONOMIC	Posted - 2005.05.20 12:25:00 - [27] maybe then you should stop your moons harvester, and instead put a refinning array for your veldspar ?
Donna Divine	Posted - 2005.05.20 14:12:00 - [28] I think the whole idea is that you need to be part of a greater production chain to make pos worth your while. Form a partnership with other pos runners to together get to the level of making reactions, and even complete components. Hell, do it like some do and go all the way into a partnership with a tech2 producer. Then you maximise your cooperative profit by going all the way from moon mining to finished tech2 module or ship. If well organised that should net you alot of profit even as a smaller subcontractor within the whole scheme.

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