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Marr Aridia
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
32
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Posted - 2012.12.13 21:07:00 -
[61] - Quote
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:+1
I support this message.
Also would just LOVE to see CCP comment on the issue. Been well over a week now since glaring drone issues became even more glaring thanks to new AI. We've had multiple threads, some as long as 24 pages. Would be nice to hear your thoughts.
Agreed, would love to get some feedback from CCP Devs re: Drones.
Drone Module Mockup v1.0 / Drone Weapons Platform Mockup v1.0 / Discussion: Making Drones a Viable Weapons Platform in EVE |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
1960
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Posted - 2012.12.13 21:41:00 -
[62] - Quote
Aleks Crawler wrote:Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:Would be outright wonderful if we could script our own drone commands, like a little text entry box, and a scripting language we could learn. All would be run from the clients, with a wide range of "directives" and "subjunctive algorithms". Set thresholds for them, return automatically on certain conditions like damage, target priority, etc.
That would be amazing, reminds me of the AI system of Final Fantasy XII. It could be made really simple and still be effective. You should develop your idea and submit it as a F&I topic. And, I support the OP with the dire need of a drone UI and AI overhaul. One problem that bugs me is the lack of communication from CCP on the subject. All we have is "we know it sucks", its surely usable but its a pain in the a**. Drones are the primary weapon for nearly half of Gallente ships and more Amarr ships will soon fall into that category too. Oh and this thread is well thought and constructive, don't make it fall into the abyss like the other 10,000 drone whine threads.
I would say that having an idea and developing it are not the same. But I see from your post and others, comparisons to other games with a similar concept, games that I never heard of.
For that reason, if you will, please start that thread in F&I regarding this concept, as I don't feel qualified to do so lacking the background experience that other players have.
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Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
1960
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Posted - 2012.12.13 21:43:00 -
[63] - Quote
Clystan wrote:Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:Would be outright wonderful if we could script our own drone commands, like a little text entry box, and a scripting language we could learn. All would be run from the clients, with a wide range of "directives" and "subjunctive algorithms". Set thresholds for them, return automatically on certain conditions like damage, target priority, etc.
I don't expect it to happen soon.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1772981#post1772981I posted this awhile back. I agree with the "don't expect it to happen soon" analysis :)
I never had an original idea in my life - which is a good thing.
(it's also a bad thing, since it's said that an idle mind is the devil's workshop, and I got a while freaking factory).
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Clystan
Binaerie Heavy Industries
115
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Posted - 2012.12.13 22:40:00 -
[64] - Quote
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:Clystan wrote:Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:Would be outright wonderful if we could script our own drone commands, like a little text entry box, and a scripting language we could learn. All would be run from the clients, with a wide range of "directives" and "subjunctive algorithms". Set thresholds for them, return automatically on certain conditions like damage, target priority, etc.
I don't expect it to happen soon.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1772981#post1772981I posted this awhile back. I agree with the "don't expect it to happen soon" analysis :) I never had an original idea in my life - which is a good thing. (it's also a bad thing, since it's said that an idle mind is the devil's workshop, and I got a while freaking factory).
Oh hell, I am in the same boat. I am sure it has been suggested before. Seems like a great feature to explore. |
Marr Aridia
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
33
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Posted - 2012.12.14 00:16:00 -
[65] - Quote
I definitely believe that a feature like that for drones would be expansion worthy. Certainly put EVE back on top. Selling the scripts on market probably wouldn't work, but it'd certainly spawn its own website similar to Battleclinic for Drone Scripts.
Drone Module Mockup v1.0 / Drone Weapons Platform Mockup v1.0 / Discussion: Making Drones a Viable Weapons Platform in EVE |
Yankunytjatjara
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
42
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Posted - 2012.12.14 07:27:00 -
[66] - Quote
not sure about the orbit but I definitely approve the merging of undock and attack as well as the possibility to bind them to hotkeys
tactical overview option for solo/small gangs: Ship Velocity Vectors - https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=599319 |
Devore Sekk
The Kissaki Syndicate
Black Core Alliance
30
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Posted - 2012.12.14 08:25:00 -
[67] - Quote
This new AI has completely killed one of my guy's PvE. Was using Arbitrator to probe and do profession sites, and also clear out up to 4/10 and equivalent combat sites. This is totally impossible now. Even if I do get NPC aggo, which seems more difficult now btw, a mixed blessing, as soon as drones are out they all immediately switch to drones and start shooting them. So now it's lock NPC, release drones, attack NPC, recall drones, let them sit for a while for shields to regenerate, lock next NPC, rinse repeat. There is no other way. There is no way to protect drones. If a drone gets webbed, you can just forget about it, it's gonna die. That's with very good drone skills and T2 drones of course.
So, grats CCP. If people are still doing PvE with drone boats and only minor inconveniences, I don't know how they're doing it, but I am searching the forums to see if people are.
I also imagine the long standing practice of bringing newbros to level 4 missions and such to help them make money and be friendly is pretty much dead as well. Nothing like getting on grid in your brand new destroyer and getting 20 rats targeting you instantly to introduce you to the game. |
Eight Two
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
9
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Posted - 2012.12.14 08:38:00 -
[68] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:I agree that the drone UI really needs some improvements... You would have thought that Team Game of Drones would have been given that task but apparently not. Anyway, i have always though that droneboats should be able to use drones exclusevly as their primary weapon but with the current mechanics, it's tought to do. I think CCP should introduce high slot drone mods that do the following: 1. Add bandwidth 2. Increase drone EHP 3. Increase number of drones in space (maybe to a limit of 7 drones total) 4. Repair drones while they are in the drone bay 5. Overheat drone stats (a scripted module that can boost dps, speed, tracking etc) And if CCP are are wondering, yes i am available to help design this. 
In addition to drone rigs to increase bandwith of ship or dronebay for drone ships. Can't be that hard, can it? Then we'd finally see drone rigs actually becoming useful (exception: sentry damage rigs). |
Gal'o Sengen
State War Academy
Caldari State
28
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Posted - 2012.12.14 08:43:00 -
[69] - Quote
From what i understand (though i may be wrong), Sleepers use a modular AI that works off a priority system. Simple solution: Give that AI to Drones as well and allow us to predefine the priorities, then redo the UI to be functional. In essence, something similar to the Gambit system of Final Fantasy XII, which was excellent for managing multiple units.
Also, do something about the massive delay between Drones being ordered to do something and Drones actually doing it. And make Heavy Drones not completely useless in PvE. |
Vilnius Zar
Ordo Ardish
314
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Posted - 2012.12.14 08:48:00 -
[70] - Quote
Marr Aridia[u wrote:Weapons systems are easy![/u]
If you want to kill a target in a mission with a Weapons system, you merely lock the target and hit the F1 key. Too cool for school. Hard to get wrong.
This is where I stopped reading the rest of your post, it may have been a good post but I'm not going to bother because of this hyperbole. Turrets can and will have tracking issues, sig radius issues, range issues, damage type issues, cap issues (also fitting issues resulting in having to make vast sacrifices to the rest of the fit) and as such require far more piloting input than droneboats.
Drones are not at all difficult to use, you just have to set up the short cuts and they work fine. All I'd want for is to be able to launch drones based on the group they're in where you can define 3 groups and have keys for launching groups 1-3.
Amat victoria curam. Excellence in everything. |
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Marr Aridia
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
34
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Posted - 2012.12.14 10:38:00 -
[71] - Quote
Vilnius Zar wrote:Marr Aridia[u wrote:Weapons systems are easy![/u]
If you want to kill a target in a mission with a Weapons system, you merely lock the target and hit the F1 key. Too cool for school. Hard to get wrong. This is where I stopped reading the rest of your post, it may have been a good post but I'm not going to bother because of this hyperbole.
I hope you don't mind, but I stopped reading your post after you said this. I'm sure your post was good, but I'm not going to bother because of your lack of hyperbole.
Drone Module Mockup v1.0 / Drone Weapons Platform Mockup v1.0 / Discussion: Making Drones a Viable Weapons Platform in EVE |
Marr Aridia
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
34
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Posted - 2012.12.14 10:43:00 -
[72] - Quote
Gal'o Sengen wrote:From what i understand (though i may be wrong), Sleepers use a modular AI that works off a priority system. Simple solution: Give that AI to Drones as well and allow us to define the priorities, then redo the UI to be functional. In essence, something similar to the Gambit system of Final Fantasy XII, which was excellent for managing multiple units.
Also, do something about the massive delay between Drones being ordered to do something and Drones actually doing it. And make Heavy Drones not completely useless in PvE.
I don't see how improving drones AI makes them a better weapons platform. They aren't meant to be the ultimate weapon.. They are meant to shoot the things that you tell them to shoot. This thread isn't about buffing them, or nerfing them, it's about making them do what you tell them to do as effectively as possible.
I agree with your second part as that is relative - the response time between issuing a command and the drones actually doing something is pretty atrocious but that 'lag' is also related to the fact you need to right click the group OR individual drone in order to tell them to switch targets which is a pain in the ass. Alternatively you could select the drone and then press F but again, it's cumbersome for no good reason at all.
Like all weapons system they need to have pros and cons - and generally there should be no 'silver bullet' when it comes to any race. The bigger picture is to get Drones on par with existing systems so that they become easy enough to use that you can spend your 'free time' getting creative from a tactical point of view.
Drone Module Mockup v1.0 / Drone Weapons Platform Mockup v1.0 / Discussion: Making Drones a Viable Weapons Platform in EVE |
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CCP Eterne
C C P
C C P Alliance
949
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Posted - 2012.12.14 11:37:00 -
[73] - Quote
Moving from General Discussion to Features & Ideas Discussion.
Community Representative GÇ+ EVE Illuminati GÇ+ Fiction Adept
@CCP_Eterne GÇ+ @EVE_LiveEvents |
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Asudem
Asen of Asgard
33
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Posted - 2012.12.14 12:50:00 -
[74] - Quote
The new NPC AI sucks and makes even some tanking strategies useless. Its not a challenge, its an annoyance. Sleeper AI for Sleeper and Incursion NPCs please, anything else is ********.
As for the drone managment: It works fine with hotkeys, only the drone AI is ********, maybe the drones need a little buff. |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
16
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Posted - 2012.12.14 13:42:00 -
[75] - Quote
The problems with the new AI and drones are fairly simple.
They want drones to be used up similar to the way ammo is used up, but the drone system does not support that.
A full flight of drones easily costs as much as an equivalent weapon system and there is very limited space for 'reloads' making the fact that they now get shot out of space with regularity even with the pilot being ocd about watching them much more than simply annoying. Using drones now is kind of like having your weapons randomly overheat only without the benefits... sometimes they just burn out in a few seconds and are worthless until you get back to the station.
I am in favor of drones, and any other ships entering the mission space, being viable targets for the rats, and that the silly stupid ai of one target till death has been done away with. However, if we are going to introduce aggro mechanics to EVE, we need to introduce the whole concept---meaning ways to manage aggro. It is currently somewhere between exceedingly difficult to impossible to bring a fleet of mixed sized ships into a level 4 mission unless everyone is a very skilled pilot and in T2 ships with multiple Logi pilots. Eventually something other than a battleship gathers the aggro of the whole room and pops like a soap bubble. I'm not really seeing the 'size appropriate' splitting of aggro happening. This is true of drones as well as pilots in smaller ships.
To fix the drones needs a overhaul of the entire system, or else a massive reduction in the signature of drones so that they can't be reliably hit by anything under frigate size. They need to be altered such that they support the 'drones are ammo' paradigm, or else changed so that they are as viable in combat as other ships. I'd tend to change them so that you install a Drone System in your ship which used up 'ammo' in the form of spare parts---when activated the system lauches it's drone, when the drone returned it is repaired using parts, when the drone is destroyed another is built using the parts (taking some time, a minute or 2). This way you keep the dynamic of drones, but don't cripple a drone boat until it returns to station.
For added fun give us some modules or make it a feature of the Drone System that parts are made from metal scraps and maybe cheap salvage components. |
Hakan MacTrew
Caledonian Heavy Industries
Sick N' Twisted
60
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Posted - 2012.12.14 17:58:00 -
[76] - Quote
DNL - Drones Need Love
+1
Show more love, please read THIS thread too and comment! Get CCP to sort out Drones!
MODULAR DRONES
MORE ORE SHIPS |
Leela Sirene
The Scope
Gallente Federation
13
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Posted - 2012.12.14 19:49:00 -
[77] - Quote
Marr Aridia wrote:Here's a mock up of how I imagine Drones to be most effectively managed as a weapons platform in EVE.. http://pbrd.co/UEEAlF
Again. Because I think that in order to make drones a comparable weapon system to the other ones it would be neccessary to make them easy to use, making them a combination of modules and the drones theirselfes. Maybe something like this:
- get rid of the obsolete "return and orbit"
- combine launch and attack/repair/mine/salvage into one single command
- add drone repair to ships
- keep a ships drone bandwith
- remove drone bay (exchange with modules)
- exchange Drones with so called "Drone Swarms" (more information on that further down this post)
- exchange Fighters and Fighter Bombers with "Fighter Squadrons" and "Fighter Bomber Squadrons"
- every Swarm consists of 100 Drones/ Fighters/ Bomber Fighters
- Give drones/swarms an actual module(capacitor booster like) "Swarm Control Unit" f.e. (small, medium, heavy) / "Flight Command Unit" (Fighters, Bombers)
- every module can be loaded with up to five Drone Swarms/Fighter Squadron/ Bomber Fighter Squadron
- only five swarms can be active at a time (either through a single module or spread over installed modules)
- amount of swarms launched from one module will act as a single unit (and can therefore just be attacked as one)
- drones might be listed in the overview as "Hobgoblin Swarm", "Vespa II Swarm" etc.
- no overheat option (in regard of the drone damage amplifier)
- keep module overheat damage visualization as an indicator for swarms getting damage (reducing the number of drones accordingly)
----balancing would be needed but swarms could still be lost due to damage AND would be prevented from being the all mighty weapon system (downside: no micromanagent of single drones)
----swarms have shield/ armor/ hull. the deeper the damage hits, the faster the number of drones will be reduced
- lost swarms can only be reloaded when all remaining swarms of a module have returned to the ship (not sure about this)
- damaged swarms can be repaired (in ship) in order to reduce the rate of losing drones but their numbers can not be refilled through repair of any kind.
- swarms can still be repaired in space in order to reduce loss rate of drones(in regard to remote hull/ armor/ shield repairer)
- swarms can be repaired when returned to ship plus while being loaded into the module (repair over time, like shield repair of drones right now)
- lost drones of a swarm can only be brought to full numbers when "joined" with other "reduced" swarms of the same kind.
- swarm damage would be directly connected to the amount of drones in a swarm (decimating a swarm would lead to reduced damage)
[/i]
This is just a very rough idea of what I could imagine how the system might work. Reducing the actual drones in space to a single unit, a swarm, instead of five individuals could also save a lot of server recources lowering lag during big fleet fights. Of course depending on what CCP is capable of making out of it. But in order to make them look like a swarm there would be needed a visual overhaul that shows real swarms of drones. (Just fair when looking at the already overhauled weapon systems) This would also lead to a more plausible look and feel of drones regarding the size of them in comparison to the ships.
Regarding the Swarms:
Because they would now have numbers up to 100 or maybe 200 per module this might change peoples minds about drones being their babies and instead leading them to look at drones more like ammo and therefore making them less worried when losing them.
So please, it's just an idea and rough picture. Maybe someone of you might have constructive additions to this because as I know myself I most likely have missed some details.  |
Mund Richard
44
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Posted - 2012.12.14 21:06:00 -
[78] - Quote
Wow, a post about drones that made me have the initial reaction of TL;DR 
Leela Sirene wrote:keep a ships drone bandwith
remove drone bay (exchange with modules)
exchange Drones with so called "Drone Swarms" [i]
I've tried to come up with something similar, but making it balanced is a nightmare.
Even shield hits would mean some drones lost? Could just make them have hull only. Maybe with Damage Control.
Either you can reinforce/regroup swarms when they return to get them back up to their peak dps, but then you just have a milder version of the current, when one or more is drone popped. Or you can reinforce them by sending out new ones, which depending on how the mechanism works, can create semi-infinite drone healths or just make them really behave like ammo. If there is some "module cycle time" on the reinforcing, it gets manageable in a PvP situation, but not exactly better for the drone user once again.
I've considered simply having drones in space that are in the same group as act one entity, acting somewhat like one ship with as many turrets as there are drones in the formation, going with the speed of the slowest, covering each other, sharing both incoming rep and damage, making them at the same time more vulnerable and repairable/manageable, but even that really needs re-designing a lot, and not sure if it would be any better.
In fact, not sure how different 5 swarms of yours are from just plain 5 drones.
They can be targeted, damged to reduce their efficience, but keeping all that in mind would be quite a bit of hassle for both attacker and attacked.
Sarcasm can be like drugs. |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
299
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Posted - 2012.12.15 00:04:00 -
[79] - Quote
Something that I have been thinking about is to finish put the drone groups for all sizes.
Scout Drone Role: Light drones used to engage targets from afar, using high speeds to evade enemy attacks.
Velocity: Excellent
Tracking: Excellent
Damage: Poor
HP: Poor
Heavy Drone Role: Heavy drones used to engage targets at close range, being equipped with superior weapons and sturdy defences, these drones will be able to take down almost any opponent.
Velocity: Poor
Tracking: Poor
Damage: Excellent
HP: Average
Sentry Drone Role: Stationary drone capable of accurately damaging opponents at extreme distances.
Velocity: Immobile
Tracking: Average
Damage: Average
HP: Excellent
Each of these drones would get a small, medium and large variant.
Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
Asudem
Asen of Asgard
33
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Posted - 2012.12.15 10:01:00 -
[80] - Quote
My idea:
+ Make drones attack a flagged target without lockon like a broadcasted target. This makes drones to first attack weapons and be a valuable weapon to encounter permajamm setups. Maybe this can balance out a few issues. |
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Thutmose I
Paxton Industries
Gentlemen's Agreement
5
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Posted - 2012.12.15 15:06:00 -
[81] - Quote
One main issue with the removal of Launch only, is it would adversely affect any tactics which involve your drones being a diversion (mainly applies to PVE). There are a few situations where it is beneficial for you for your drones to be the primary target, such as in the case of many tackle rats, or in some cases where tank has been broken and GTFO is required.
Otherwise, I agree that there should be a hotkey for "launch and attack", as that would make use of drones much smoother, and may get more pilots using them as a viable weapon system.
A way of determining what is attacking your drones would also be quite nice, though not as helpful as something to tell if drones have been targeted. |
Blastil
Black Thorne Corporation
Black Thorne Alliance
26
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Posted - 2012.12.15 15:53:00 -
[82] - Quote
I suggested something similar, except I would like to see it work more like a probe launcher, where you drag and drop drones into the launcher from your drone bay, then when you "fire" the drones they automatically launch. pressing the launcher again triggers attack, and a third time causes them to return. When the drones are engaged the box glows green, when they are disengaged it glows red clicking the module when glowing red will cause the drones to rtb and automatically be loaded into the drone launcher again.
this simplifies about 8 mouse clicks into 4 button presses.
Any ship with a drone bay would automatically have this launcher attached to their F9 button or something, forgoing the need to click repetedly. This would also enable some interesting things, like allowing drone pilots to react quicker to a changing battlefield by pre-loading drones into the drone bay, and allow CCP to do more with contextual menus, so that new players don't have to know before hand that you can only project drones out to 40 km, or that you can only launch as many as you have drones skill to.
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