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Ruffio Sepico
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Posted - 2005.05.19 08:29:00 -
[1]
The changes to missiles will affect a great part of those doing missions. Posting about such worries in ships and modules forum seems to be useless as posts get deleted asap.
Time back Zrakor replied to a post on these forums in this thread;
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=157329&page=5
 Originally by: Zrakor
There are a few misconceptions here. First of all, the level 4 missions aren't intended for a group. At first we planned having them group oriented (during the earlier stages of exodus) but we quickly realized that this would be a mistake, as it was too much of a jump from level 3 missions and the neccessary features couldn't make it in.
Of course, this is all relative to the player. Some players need a group to complete level 4 missions, others don't. But until features are in place to make grouping in missions practical (such as the sharing of reward and standing) we won't be 'forcing' anyone to group in missions.
The reward being too high in level 4 missions is debatable, but something we are taking a good look at. The bounties on npcs used in missions aren't any higher on average than the ones used in complexes for example, and the loot drops are worse due to the lack of 'bosses' with the loot that entails. There are also module drops in 0.0 which you cannot acquire through missions in empire space. However the high quality agents being located in high secure space is an issue which we may deal with later. There is currently a multiplier in place which makes the rewards in low sec space higher than high sec space, so as long as you can find a fairly high quality agent in 0.0 space, you will be getting quite a bit higher rewards on average than your empire agent runner counterparts.
We discussed having higher level agents only in non-empire space long ago, and came to the conclusion that this would not be good for the game. We do not want to force people to go into the pvp areas. This does not mean we will not reconsider this decision sometime down the line, but right now there are no plans of moving the high level agents down into pvp space. Grouping, however, is a vital part of any mmorg and something that we will be working on improving in the future.
Changes to missiles how it look now will make it much harder to do level 4 missions solo, for some impossible without a group. Zrakor says level 4 missions are not intended for groups, as the jump from level 3 to 4 is to big and that the facilities for grouping isnt in place yet.
No he also says grouping is a vital part of the game, however as it seems now CCP is doing changes that makes grouping a must for most players if they want to do level 4 missions. Eventhough facilites for such isn't in place (shared lp's, rewards, bonus's etc). And with the jump from level 3 to level 4 agents doesnt warrant groupings as it would be to big a leap, then what?
As it feels now CCP is herding players towards grouping but there is no facilities in place to acomodate such. And current level 4 mission's isn't rewarding enough to encourage bigger groups. Then there would be other things in eve to do that would be more rewarding.
I would like to know what the people at CCP that work with agents and missions will do to adjust missions to upcoming changes? Currently there are missions that is hazardious to do as it is have our offensive capabilities "adusted(nerfed)" would gimp most of us. I'm not talking only about those using Ravens, but other ships that use setups where missiles and torps is a vial part of the setup. Typhoon, Tempest etc.
Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk
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Albar Gray
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Posted - 2005.05.19 08:52:00 -
[2]
As I do lvl 4 missions in an Apoc, with a 2 launcher limit, I do not see the missile changes having that great an effect on me, or people like me who do not use Ravens.
For an Apoc the missile launchers, like drones; are there to deal with intreceptors. And though cruise and torps will now do them less damage, going to light missiles and smaller launchers with a faster rate of fire should offset the damage penalty to a greater extent.
Obviously this will depend exactly on where the testing places the ROF of the various launchers and other damage effecting values.
-----------------------------------------------
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ThatÆs my alt
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Ruffio Sepico
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Posted - 2005.05.19 09:25:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Albar Gray
As I do lvl 4 missions in an Apoc, with a 2 launcher limit, I do not see the missile changes having that great an effect on me, or people like me who do not use Ravens.
For an Apoc the missile launchers, like drones; are there to deal with intreceptors. And though cruise and torps will now do them less damage, going to light missiles and smaller launchers with a faster rate of fire should offset the damage penalty to a greater extent.
Obviously this will depend exactly on where the testing places the ROF of the various launchers and other damage effecting values.
As for a Raven, it would need to mix launchers, as it already is limited to 6 and guns for the 2 others. It would gimp it totaly for missions.
as for Minmtar bs's, they can't tank good either way and still do good damage. Taking out scrambling and webbing ships ASAP is vital for them. DS missions a death trap waiting to happen.
Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk
HiD Kills: http://eve.hidden-agenda.co.uk/kill_list.php
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Arthur Guinness
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Posted - 2005.05.19 09:27:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Arthur Guinness on 19/05/2005 09:29:33
Zrakor shoudln't do anything till we've seen how exactly these changes pan out on TQ.
Besides why are all raven pilots crying now, you just have to work a bit harder, or do you think people using megathrons or tempests or postpulsechange apocs for that matter had it easier so far?
It's just ravens getting put in line with all other ships.
If you say lvl4 aren't soloable, then they never were with anything but a raven.
Anyway lets see how these changes workout, it might just be that for example an apoc has to replace 2 sieges with 2 assault launchers, which gimps dmg against bs. So yes maybe remove all bs with more than 500k bounty as they tank to good for solo :P |
Esrevatem Dlareme
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Posted - 2005.05.19 09:49:00 -
[5]
Just FYI, you really should go read the last Dev Chat that was done over at www.omgrawr.net here, if you haven't yet, as the future of agent missions is discussed a bit in it.
______________________________________________
As I stand,
dazzled by the shattered twilight,
I think back...
I think back to all the events that have brought me here.
And I realize...
I realize I was ment to come here.
Someone wanted me to come here.
And now, I have come here. |
Ruffio Sepico
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Posted - 2005.05.19 13:02:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Arthur Guinness
Besides why are all raven pilots crying now, you just have to work a bit harder, or do you think people using megathrons or tempests or postpulsechange apocs for that matter had it easier so far?
It's just ravens getting put in line with all other ships.
If you say lvl4 aren't soloable, then they never were with anything but a raven.
I'm not limited to just a Raven when it comes to missions, at almost 25 mill sp, I fly most ships. However, changes to missiles will force groupings to a bigger extent. And level 4 missions are not intended for groups by Zrakors own words. Example, would you use a Scorp for missions after changes? Or a typhoon? Think not.
Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk
HiD Kills: http://eve.hidden-agenda.co.uk/kill_list.php
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X'Alor
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Posted - 2005.05.19 13:47:00 -
[7]
Edited by: X''Alor on 19/05/2005 13:58:16
Just an idea but.
Add ...... notice the word "add"
a cruiser or two in lvl 1 missions(common even a newb merlin can handle one cruiser let alone a destroyer)
more and tougher cruisers in lvl 2's(make 2's so you want a cruiser ship to do safely but bit risky)
the occassional single 250k & 500k bounty BS or two in lvl 3 missions. (you simply need to experiance some BS spawn before going to) and no one said they have to be big dollar guys.
LvL 4 instant aggro jumpin point with 4 close range BS orbiting you and pounding away close range with sentry gun fire. (no matter how much fun that is)
that'll be flamed to death by the waaaaa instant spawn a BS in empire crowd. Ya just the thought that everyone can have some fun everyplace in eve really upsets people.
but looking at titains and the new big ships coming, that's probably why they won't open up lvl 5's yet. Probably saving lvl 5's for the true need a hugh fleet including a couple of the big ships to complete.
So if they going to make lvl 4's harder and more group orientated then they have to add some BS spawns with a possible sentry or two to lvl 3 missions here and there.
it is entirely too much of a jump now to go from a pilaging BS ripping through 8 or more cruisers on the hardest lvl 3 to an instant aggro 4 BS spawn pounding the first ship through a gate with sentry support.
Not bi4chin not crying not whining but just saying that is too broad of a jump.
if they gonna adjust lvl 4's to be harder more for groups then they gotta adjust the other missions on down the line.
Edit. not to mention the extra time and work that will take for the recoding of the new balance and mission content to do that thru 4 lvl of missions and fixes and fix patches for the multitudes of bugs it generates when the missions get all fubared again for monthes till they can manage to fix the zillion bugs from the hugh patch and we all start crying quit quit CCP you suck do it right blah blah blah blah ...... which all in turn ends up delaying any more exodus features that aren't even close to being added.
Read that edit with a grain of salt and a smile.
<my sig>Looking for a new corp and looking to have some new fun in eve. eve mail me ingame ..... I don't fit in too well in gallente based corps. Got about 50 mill SP between two chars, I'm sure I'll find a new corp someplace.
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Oberon Oblique
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Posted - 2005.05.19 14:15:00 -
[8]
I would put it this way:
Lvl4 missions are currently very group friendly and are faster, more profitable and just plain more fun when done with 2-4 people.
Would it be nice to share mission rewards? sure
Would it be nice to share standing effects? sure
Other than the above 2 improvements i'd like to see, I would like to see the simple/easy lvl4 missions removed or moved down to the 3's.
When you wanna buck up and roll thru some 4's with your gang, nothing sucks more than go jump 3 systems and kill 3 cruisers and a BS.
-The mind is strong and the flesh is weak, but oh the flesh... |
ALUN
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Posted - 2005.05.19 16:51:00 -
[9]
I ,like albar grey also use an apoc for lvl4 missions.
Even after the missile change's im pretty confident that i can still solo 95% of all the lvl4 missions.
Guns , drones and Target painters 4 teh w1n !!! , just like i use now 
missile change's.....dont think ide even notice tbh
raven pilots ........ moin 
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Ruffio Sepico
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Posted - 2005.05.19 17:56:00 -
[10]
Originally by: ALUN
I ,like albar grey also use an apoc for lvl4 missions.
Even after the missile change's im pretty confident that i can still solo 95% of all the lvl4 missions.
Guns , drones and Target painters 4 teh w1n !!! , just like i use now
missile change's.....dont think ide even notice tbh
raven pilots ........ moin
If you take a Tempest pilot, he/she can't really afford a mid slot for a target painter. Its gimped for tanking as it is. Adding target painters for missiles doesnt have any effect acording to tests made on sisi with missiles.
Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk
HiD Kills: http://eve.hidden-agenda.co.uk/kill_list.php
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Skarsnik
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Posted - 2005.05.19 18:13:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Skarsnik on 19/05/2005 18:14:50
Originally by: ALUN
I ,like albar grey also use an apoc for lvl4 missions.
Even after the missile change's im pretty confident that i can still solo 95% of all the lvl4 missions.
Guns , drones and Target painters 4 teh w1n !!! , just like i use now
missile change's.....dont think ide even notice tbh
raven pilots ........ moin
Does anyone else notice a little snippet from Alun's post that will be 'Very' applicable to ravens post missile patch, considering Missile changes are going to be effected by Sig radius as well. Light those targets up adapt and have fun.
EDIT - DOH - Didn't see Ruffios post below, if target painters dont effect missiles strikes they should in my honest opinion. HOwever I am biased as I 'Only' fly caldari ships and no other (Self made rule for RP sake)
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X'Alor
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Posted - 2005.05.19 19:13:00 -
[12]
it will change many raven pilots ....... to cerberus pilots 
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Sewell
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Posted - 2005.05.19 19:42:00 -
[13]
I find lvl 4 missions ideal for 2 ppl:
The person who accepts the missions should be in a tanked ship fitted to kill frigs/cruiser (an Apoc is a nice option; or maybe even a Sacreilege) and then person number 2 flys an all out dmg BS (Tempste with target ainters and gyros perhaps). Works wonders.
Missions go very fast and I think me and my friend probably earn more money and LP like this than if we had done missions each on our own.
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Ratzap
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Posted - 2005.05.19 20:10:00 -
[14]
Agree Sewell. I like to fly a geddon or mega as gunship support to the tank in 4's but sadly, just about everyone doing them is in a <bleep> raven and wants to solo.
Ratzap
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Dirtball
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Posted - 2005.05.19 20:46:00 -
[15]
I do 90% of my missions in an apoc, but I do rely on torps to an extent. However, switching to assault launchers to take out the frigs and being allowed to fit bigger guns for the larger ships might balance out, but probably not since the small frigs do an insane tank.
the reason i do only 90% of my missions in an apoc is because I have a raven parked at a different agent and I don't do mission for him much, he keeps coming on to me and it makes me very uncomfortable.
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Zothike
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Posted - 2005.05.20 06:48:00 -
[16]
Fit 2 light/medium gun/or even better 2 small/medium launchers , you will save powergrid/cpu to fit 6 bigger gun/launchers or saving some slot that you had to use to be able to do such fitting before
kill the frigates away from other ship with drones and light and after fit defender in launcher it will give you good protection against missiles of the remaining ships, personnally it's what i will do
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Hotice
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Posted - 2005.05.20 08:27:00 -
[17]
missile charge hardly make lvl 4 missions any harder than they are now. I fly tempest and apoc solo lvl 4 missions. I can do all the types solo but perfer to group with another person. It is simply more fun to group with somebody.
I use missiles to kill intys as well. However, after the missile change I wouldn't be even both to use missile launchers on my apoc. 5 modulated mega beams, 3 modulated dual heavy beams can dish out better damage. I will just use drones to kill webbed inty/spider drones. it will take a bit longer but I can tank forever anyway. For tempest this missile change might be a problem when dealing with small ships. However, I think fitting a few auto cannons along with drones should do it.
I've been testing out different ship setup and tactics since I heard of this missile change. After extensive test, I can say that this change wouldn't really effect none missile boat flying pilots that much. For those who trained raven just for easy mission, it is time to go back and fly a real ship. 
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Ruffio Sepico
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Posted - 2005.05.20 12:18:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Hotice
missile charge hardly make lvl 4 missions any harder than they are now. I fly tempest and apoc solo lvl 4 missions. I can do all the types solo but perfer to group with another person. It is simply more fun to group with somebody.
I use missiles to kill intys as well. However, after the missile change I wouldn't be even both to use missile launchers on my apoc. 5 modulated mega beams, 3 modulated dual heavy beams can dish out better damage. I will just use drones to kill webbed inty/spider drones. it will take a bit longer but I can tank forever anyway. For tempest this missile change might be a problem when dealing with small ships. However, I think fitting a few auto cannons along with drones should do it.
The apoc is good at tanking, can fit 8 turrets and can afford to mix turrets. A Tempest got max 6 turrets, is bad at tanking in addition. You can't mix guns with the Tempest if you want to break the tank of the ncp bs's. The launchers + drones is what there is to take down smaller stuff.
There is missions out there that got up to 10 interceptors and 3 bs's in one spawn. I would love to see you handle that with your Tempest after the missile changes How about nerf the apoc so it can only use 6 turrets, that would be nice How about the Typhoon and Scorp after these changes?
Oh and before you even mention anything about then do it in groups. Zrakor said level 4's wasn't intended for groups.
Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk
HiD Kills: http://eve.hidden-agenda.co.uk/kill_list.php
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Lysender
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Posted - 2005.05.20 13:57:00 -
[19]
The fly garbage can rocks.
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Cartiff
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Posted - 2005.05.20 14:21:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Cartiff on 20/05/2005 14:21:14
I haven't been on the test server to try this on missions yet, but i would think this might work.
6xsiege 2xhaevy nos
1xbooster +amp +2hardeners 1xpainter 1xweb
5x PDU2
Paint/web frig, torp to death, rinse repeat.
Takes longer and your tank ain't so good, but the fitting can be worked on, maybe a mate in a frig to handle the web/painting would work well.
Cartiff, CEO
Euphoria Released
NBSI 4TW
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Valerien
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Posted - 2005.05.20 14:38:00 -
[21]
sounds like the Apoc will be the new 'raven of level 4's' once this change goes through. then everyone will ***** about how all you have to do is train for an apoc and you can solo all the missions
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Odin Tahmorrex
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Posted - 2005.05.20 17:31:00 -
[22]
The Apoc has been able to solo the missions for a long time as it is. Takes forever compared to a Raven atm. The missile changes will not make the Apoc any better, I think it will come out about even.
I fly the Raven and the Apoc ( i switched fully over to Raven after the MP nerf ) And now I'll be back to picking between the two based on the mission. Who knows, maybe I'll try out an EW blaster scorp with a weak sheild :p
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Hotice
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Posted - 2005.05.20 19:42:00 -
[23]
Ruffio,
I'm not sure why you cannot break npc bosses' tanking with 6 guns. I have done it with 5 guns+drones. Even supreme drones and agel BS on AE bonus lvl cannot tank 6x1400m and drones. Then again, I have minmatar and amarr battleship skill at lvl 5 along with lvl 4-5 in gunnery skill. You just need to work out new setup on your ship.
In general, Mega is the best choice for lvl 4 now. It got ship damage bonus and can tank pretty well. If I didn't invest so much time in minmatar and amarr ships, I would pick up a mega asap. Weapon setup is important, however combat tactics is even more important. From ammo selection vs. intended target to the way you fight all comes in play. If you cannot break NPC tank with 6 guns, you need to re-exame your setup and train some more skills.
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Ruffio Sepico
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Posted - 2005.05.20 20:19:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Hotice
Ruffio,
I'm not sure why you cannot break npc bosses' tanking with 6 guns. I have done it with 5 guns+drones. Even supreme drones and agel BS on AE bonus lvl cannot tank 6x1400m and drones. Then again, I have minmatar and amarr battleship skill at lvl 5 along with lvl 4-5 in gunnery skill. You just need to work out new setup on your ship.
With 6x1400's? no problemo, but he did suggest add in smaller auto cannons guns to handle the smaller stuff... Its all fine and dandy in a apoc with 8 turrets, you can afford to mix guns if you so desire, you can tank your ship very well too.
On a Tempest you cant really mix in several types of guns with 6 turrets slots and still break tanks such as the supreme drones and mordo mammoth just to mention a few. The big stuff isn't really the issue, get range and blast it out of the sky with the arties, but the small stuff, you end up deppedn on your missile slots + drones. (also, in DS drones can be a bad choice if you dont keep their leash short, as they might seek out a group you havent agroed, and mutli agroed groups are bad okay? )
Im working towarsd t2 arties atm, Im not unfamilar with a Tempest, but I know you can't just compare it to an apoc and fit it as one.
Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk
HiD Kills: http://eve.hidden-agenda.co.uk/kill_list.php
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Taco Perez
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Posted - 2005.05.23 21:31:00 -
[25]
for my part the missile changes don't affect me at all. I use a dom for all level 4 kill missions - dom doesn't have any missile slots.
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tomzki
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Posted - 2005.05.24 08:57:00 -
[26]
WTB named smartbombs for my Raven 
preferably with 7.5km blast radius or greater...
Was thinking of launching a wave of light drones at the smaller scrambling ships, then smarting anything that still gets in close and blasting away at cruisers/BS as normal with seige and hoping for the best 
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tomzki
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Posted - 2005.05.24 09:01:00 -
[27]
would obviously need to be quite careful when using the smarts, in between volleys
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digitalwanderer
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Posted - 2005.06.03 10:04:00 -
[28]
Edited by: digitalwanderer on 03/06/2005 10:10:09
Hence why I¦ll be removing the 2 named siege launchers on my apoc for 2 named heavy missile launchers and that frees up a low slot for a T2 damage mod(was used for a T2 RCU previously),which should work quite nicely with my T2 turrets...
I¦m also currently training heavy drone operation to lvl 5(7 days left),so that the drones i can carry do the absolute max damage they can(drones and heavy missiles for cruiser and frigate work,the extra damage from the large guns for the BS`s,as well as for cruisers a longer ranges...)
Even the heavy missiles will lend a helping hand with BS¦s once frigates are delt with thanks to their much longer ranges and faster flight time...
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Embattle
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Posted - 2005.06.03 12:28:00 -
[29]
I do my lv4s in a Raven and even with this missile nerf I don't see that changing. In fact my recent changes in terms of moving from an offensive setup to a slightly more defensive setup has already helped me counter the coming missile nerf imo.
Your Miner II perfectly blows up in its mount, wrecking for 900000000 damage. |
FireFoxx80
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Posted - 2005.06.03 13:38:00 -
[30]
Nerf lvl4's so they can be done solo in any BS (but drop the rewards) and introduce lvl5 missions that require groups.
ex P-TMC
If you think you can do a better job, go find yourself a datacentre to host a box, get a copy of Visual Studio, and STFU.
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