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Weirda
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Posted - 2005.05.19 18:32:00 -
[1]
Weirda have never been part of a fleet battle before, but see alot of the arguments for tanking vs. ganking have to do with that. For the record, would love to do this sometime, but with 2xKids and 1xSignificant Other who hates EvE, being available for something that takes a long time and requires coordination just isn't gonna happen till Weirda send them all to Hawaii for a week and call in sick (Which will likely not happen any time this century)...
All of that being said... The gist of what Weirda get is:
Both sides pretty much line up at range, sit there and take it in the ass. Each individual pilot hoping they not called out for death next... 
Is this a fair assessment?
If it is, it seem like the Missile changes will actually be a good thing in that there will be a point to bringing a mixed fleet. And moving targets (small) are harder to hit, so 'not ever being able to tank fire from X BS anyways so might as well gank' won't necessarily be the only road...
Will this allow us to see other things, like X long range gank BS being screwed against a mixed fleet of HAC/Inty/BS/Logistics (god forbid), since they rely soly on killing power as defense? 
Either way - just looking for some insights, and to drum up a possible discussion on the matter, so that we can see more changes that help make this playstyle more interesting. 
While some may believe that 25 battleships should be able to kill 50 cruiser/frigs due to cost/firepower/etc, this is just not true. History has shown us time and again that Tactics should be able to win the day, not brute force. This is the only way that people have ever risen up in the past from opression. The big problem with the current game mechanic (part of which seem to be the purpose of the missile overhaul) is that if all you can do is line up and wait to take it in the ass - then there is no point to tactics and the outcome of battles can only be determined by how many BS pilots can be drummed up at any point in time regardless of their skill. 
And in the spirit of someone who have so much to say on this matter:
/Weirda
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Sobeseki Pawi
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Posted - 2005.05.19 18:39:00 -
[2]
 Originally by: Weirda
(Which will likely not happen any time this century)...
Look at the bright side, Kali will be out.
~Sobe
Captain Cutie, Razor's Kiss
What is your Radical Dream? |
Sewell
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Posted - 2005.05.19 19:03:00 -
[3]
Smaller ships will almost always get owned by battleships in fleet combat. The kind of damage 25 BS can put out is so insane that nothing is going to last long; add in the number target painters and tracking computers that are bound to be fitted by the BS and they can kill pretty much any sized ship.
Mixed fleet sure have their uses and could surely beat a larger fleet by using tacitics - not just in a straigt up shoot out, there the BS will still carry the day. And that is quite like it is supposed to be I think.
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Hast
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Posted - 2005.05.19 19:39:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Hast on 19/05/2005 19:39:36
well there are tricks you can do to avoid getting omgwtfbbq'ed in fleetbattles. Things such as aligning and having someone to dust of those pesky frigates is good.
A fleetbattle is alot more then just point and click... A good commander prioritizes targets and makes sure the fleet is ok and focusing fire. If one force manages to focus fire and the other one looses its cool then it usually ends up in a slaugher. The commander is the key, he needs to be calm, clear and concise(sp?) in his orders. He must also get the others to understand who's in command, and that its only him thats supposed to talk right now. There are some other tricks of the trade aswell. 
People that think that fleetbattles are just point and click(you just need to have a big enough blob) usually ends up slaughtered 
P.S. this has annoyed me for a while; Sewell, mistake is mispelled in your sig 
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Elve Sorrow
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Posted - 2005.05.19 20:21:00 -
[5]
Frig fleets are doom for a pure BS fleet. A few pointers:
60-80% of fleetbattles happen at >100km. Enemy frigates will attempt to fly over to the other fleet, but you can imagine what happens if a frigate goes straight into 20 BS over 100km. 
You then have Covert Ops moving around in the grid, either attempting to get a better spot to attack the enemy fleet, or to provide a warpout point for your own BS. (So they dont have to leave the grid and load it again.)
Battleships that get called as target, and manage to survive the first volley, will generally escape aslong as they are aligned, going at fullspeed and paying attention. Oh, and you hope one of the enemy frigates isnt on you ofcourse.
That's where the antifrig ships come into play. Effectively, 2 Zealots or Eagles can protect an entire fleet from enemy frigates. They might not be able to kill the ones at longrange, but anything gets within a 50km sphere of them, and they're dead. (I know, i generally play this role.)
As for missiles. Even at 8km/sec, cruises will have trouble reaching targets.
/Elve
New Video out! Watch me!
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Sewell
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Posted - 2005.05.19 20:51:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Sewell on 19/05/2005 20:51:45
Originally by: Hast
Edited by: Hast on 19/05/2005 19:39:36
P.S. this has annoyed me for a while; Sewell, mistake is mispelled in your sig
Thanks for pointing it out. And btw; shouldn't it be "misspelled"?
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Hast
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Posted - 2005.05.19 21:14:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Sewell
Edited by: Sewell on 19/05/2005 20:51:45
Originally by: Hast
Edited by: Hast on 19/05/2005 19:39:36
P.S. this has annoyed me for a while; Sewell, mistake is mispelled in your sig
Thanks for pointing it out. And btw; shouldn't it be "misspelled"?
why do you think I hesitated to point it out to you
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Cummilla
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Posted - 2005.05.19 21:45:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Weirda
All of that being said... The gist of what Weirda get is:
Both sides pretty much line up at range, sit there and take it in the ass.
Best quote EVAR! 
Pretty much accurate although before the EW fiasco there were actually a cadre of scorp pilots who could sit back and "quarterback" the entire deal if they were good enough and actually turn the tide against sheer numbers. But those days are long gone 
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Kyska
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Posted - 2005.05.20 18:21:00 -
[9]
I don't think you're going to find anyone who knows anything about fleet battles seriously discussing serious fleet tactics on these forums. You can probably guess why.
I do feel that I should state that tactics do rule the day. Smarter, faster, more skilled is much more deadly than just 'having more battleships'.
It's not just a line-up-and-slug-it-out napoleanic thing- not by a long shot.
-Kyska
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Soros
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Posted - 2005.05.20 18:28:00 -
[10]
Fleet battles are awsome !!
Sometimes long range, sometimes short, I dont really care tbh, fleet battles for the win :p
-= Soros =-
= Firmux Ixion =
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Weirda
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Posted - 2005.05.20 18:29:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Weirda on 20/05/2005 18:30:18
Originally by: Kyska
I don't think you're going to find anyone who knows anything about fleet battles seriously discussing serious fleet tactics on these forums. You can probably guess why.
I do feel that I should state that tactics do rule the day. Smarter, faster, more skilled is much more deadly than just 'having more battleships'.
It's not just a line-up-and-slug-it-out napoleanic thing- not by a long shot.
-Kyska
Agreed - and don't expect any 'specific' tactics here.
The main thing that Weirda is trying to address is the fact that there is much 'gank vs tank'/'bs only fleet' ect discussion on these forums. Weirda see balance from the perspective of 1v1, 1v2, small gang ops... but regretfully do not want to chime in when experienced fleet pilots post 'fleet is crap... don't bother tanking... all these ships are useless... all these changes are useless...'
Really just trying to get some idea in here about what sort of changes Could or Should be made by ccp in order to address the complaints mentioned above. 
While it does seem that there are definatley 'tactics' (in quotes) involved in fleet battle... 'keeping your cool' and 'calling the right targets' have a lot more to do with how you pull it off then actual 'tactics'. Hannibal, for example, often beat the equivalent of a '50 bs fleet' with 20 frigs and 15 cruisers... and some other crazy ninja ****. Would love to see the abilities to actually get a strong tactical advantage by 'going against the grain' (not by making cruisers and frigs invulnerable to BS). As 'keeping your cool' and 'calling right targets' are NOT 'tactics' by Weirda's definition.
Either way - Cheers! It does seem like fleet battles CAN and ARE a bit more in depth then they are often alluded to being. 
Please keep up the responses!
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Kyska
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Posted - 2005.05.21 02:43:00 -
[12]
The forums do not represent the sum total of experience in eve, if I may so state. ;>
Many people with mouths bigger than eyes, and many people who've never seen an email from concord in their evesistance.
The trick to tactics isn't 'ganking versus tanking' or what setup you're using.. it's using the resources you have to the greatest effect and making smart decisions. That's all I'll say about that, except to note that fleet actions have a lot more depth than they get credit for on here.
-Kyska
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slip66
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Posted - 2005.05.21 06:11:00 -
[13]
back in the day before t2 and experinced pilots having all thier gunnery and support skills to lvl 5. It was very common to see tanked setups in fleet combat. The fights would last alot longer. No one used frigs and the battle ships actually did thier own warp scrambling.
Skill/module increase and fleet commanders getting thier pilots to focus fire and leave personal vendettas be, has negated the tank. One of the last dev blogs indicated that they did not want DPS to increase anymore then it currently is and planed to introduce equipment that would greatly improve a battleships ability to tank.
In reality you will NEVER out tank a fleet. You just hope you can stay in long enough that your fleet will kill it's called target 1st. Thus giving your fleet the advantage as they gain combat power overtime.
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James Draekn
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Posted - 2005.05.21 08:39:00 -
[14]
An idea to balance the capablilities out of the different classes of ships would be to have a weapon size counter to the class of ship.
ie.
Small turrets/rockets, light missiles will effectively counter or hit:
- 90% of the time = all targets (frigate to BS)
Medium turrets/heavy missiles will effectively counter or hit:
- 90% of the time = Medium targets and up(Cruiser to BS)
- 10% of the time = small targets (frigate and Destroyer)
Large Turrets/Cruise missiles, Torpedoes will effectively counter or hit:
- 90% of the time = Large targets (Battleships)
- 10% of the time = medium Targets (cruiser and BattleCruiser)
- 1% of the time = small targets (frigates and Destroyer)
I'm not suggesting a change to the ships, just to the weapons. Allowing smaller weapons to be a threat to a BS will force the BS pilots to counter a frigate threat with smaller weapons. But if they are smart they will bring escorts to deal with the smaller ships. I personally think it would be great to see frigates in fleet battles.
I know that BS pilots wouldn't like this change, but if they think about it, having the capability to mount 7-8 small weapons will own any frigate that comes near. besides a Frigate still has to go through 12k of hitpoints. But it will allow newer players to have a chance in combat
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Suicide Keen
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Posted - 2005.05.21 10:43:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Sewell
Smaller ships will almost always get owned by battleships in fleet combat. The kind of damage 25 BS can put out is so insane that nothing is going to last long; add in the number target painters and tracking computers that are bound to be fitted by the BS and they can kill pretty much any sized ship.
Mixed fleet sure have their uses and could surely beat a larger fleet by using tacitics - not just in a straigt up shoot out, there the BS will still carry the day. And that is quite like it is supposed to be I think.
Again I will quote Star Wars since it is popular right now. Why do the battleships have attack fighters if all they needed were battleships to take out the opposing frig force. Not once do I remember a single battleship in the entire six movie series taking out a frigate by itself.
Even the new idea I came up with seeing Episode III and how they were able to simple change direction to avoid a missile strike would be a great feature instead of the velocity changes.
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Nil Desperandum
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Posted - 2005.05.21 11:55:00 -
[16]
Bored at work writin this and also my first ever post yay
anyway I'll cut to it I dont have fleet battle experience but what I think would be very nice to see if they were to make such alterations to strike ability of frigates would be dumb fire torpedo for area denial purposes which would allow a tactical advantage against on coming waves of frigates but must be skillfull to pull off
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Porro
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Posted - 2005.05.21 12:40:00 -
[17]
I havn't read all the replies so sorry if i cover things that have allready been said. Quite a few ships now use target painters thus making the smaller ships agility/speed useless and might as well be battleship size targets. Also lots of gank setups use tracking comps which can help them hit. I guess maybe if you managed to warp right into the heart of a fleet with a number of small ships you'd have a chance but im not sure thats worth it.
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