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Getting more PVP players into Eve.

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Jawas The Scope Gallente Federation 10	Posted - 2012.12.15 10:55:00 - [1] - Quote Highsec is already overpopulated and reducing highsec space as some have suggested would just concentrate all the high sec players into a smaller area. Since most belts are already mined out now, those wishing to skill up on industry to make ships and modules that you love to blow up so much would find that getting ore is too much of a challenge and decide that the game is not for them. CCP would lose too much revenue from the subsequent loss of these highsec players and be forced to turn off the servers for the last time, never to come back online. Unless some radical changes are made, reducing highsec space is not a viable option. The biggest problem is that PVP is not a good source of income and for a new player, it incurs too many losses due to skill shortages, newer players can't recover those losses easily. Additionally, to make enough isk to enable players to write off those losses means skilling up on mining and industry but those skills are useless for PVP. By the time you have a respectable amount of isk for PVP, you still have a very long way to go to train your PVP skills, the isk you made to replace losses only lasts for a while. I know Eve was always meant to be hardcore but spending hours mining or mission running to buy a ship and mods for a couple of minutes of PVP fun each time you get blown up is not hardcore, IT'S JUST DAMNED BORING FOR PVP PLAYERS. The net result is you have a lot of miners and industrialists staying in the game and all the new PVPers leave. Ergo: The overpopulated highsec that you hate so much. Reduce highsec space further so that those miners and industrialists get crammed into an even smaller space and they will leave as well because there isn't enough ore to sustain them all. Remember that they are not PVP players so they won't magically move to lowsec or nullsec. You frightened off all the PVP players by making it TOO hardcore to begin with. OK, here's my proposal: Lowsec: 100% insurance payout for replacement T1 ship and mods. The insurance should cover the cost of ALL T1 ship losses, including T1 mods and such so new PVP players are not discouraged. Implants if you are podded are not included as it's your choice to go PVPing with a head full of expensive implants. Clones under a certain grade are also reimbursed by insurance to reduce the losses for new players. Highsec and nullsec have no changes. The Story: The powers that be for each faction have forced insurance payout for all T1 ship losses, as well as the modules on it in lowsec in the hope that pilots will attempt to make it as safe as highsec. This has been limited to T1 replacements ONLY and current standard insurance rates will apply for T2 ships and no payout for T2 modules. Similarly, clone replacement for clones up to a given grade will also be reimbursed by insurance. Concord cannot patrol the lowsec region due to limited personnel but it is the hope that pilots will do the policing in the lowsec regions themselves. Sadly, nullsec cannot be included in this as the insurance cannot support the losses on the scale seen there. No change has been made to current highsec insurance as Concord are currently doing their job to keep illegal killings at bay in that area. Conclusion: This would encourage more PVP players into the game. Losses for new players would be minimal to none in lowsec and everyone can enjoy some PVP fun without it being way too hardcore as it is at present. For those who want more hardcore action, nullsec would be their destination. It allows new players to ease into PVP from the start and not have to spend hours recovering their losses every time. You would see more players getting into a ship and diving into lowsec just for the fun of it. As their skills get better and their death/kill ratio starts to lean in the other direction, they will be more inclined to move lower down until they get to nullsec where the hardcore fun starts. By this time, they will have amassed a reasonable amount of skills to survive there and enough isk to replace their losses. It can be done one of two ways. 1. The ship you lost fitted with the mods you had is cloned in your bay when you dock. This is not really reasonable as it means the pilot is not inconvenienced by the loss and would be more inclined to take silly risks. 2. You have a sheet listing your losses with a link to click on each item which brings up that item in the market so you can buy it from the market yourself. The insurance will meet the cost of the LEAST EXPENSIVE market entry in the region. It's your choice to make up the difference if you want it with less jumps to pick it up. The market window will show the insurance contribution to the cost and yours, if any, separately. This would be easier since we already have kill mails, it just needs a version with a link to the market on each item for the victim. I would prefer option 2 as this causes the inconvenience of running around for bits to rebuild your ship. If the mod you need is not currently on sale in the region, you may even have to go to another region to find it. Alternatively, get a lower rated one at no cost or pay the difference for a better one. If you get a lower rated one, you get no money in your wallet from the insurance even though it was cheaper than the insured item, (insurance companies aren't stupid ). This is a rough idea and may be refined more but it would encourage more PVP players in the game.
Valleria Darkmoon No Salvation 43	Posted - 2012.12.15 11:41:00 - [2] - Quote What you're talking about is a big TL;DR: EVE needs respawns. I think the biggest thing for new players is that they just need to lose a ship or two in PvP. As long as you follow the golden rule of never flying what you can not afford you'll find it's really not that bad. Additionally T1 (meta 0) modules are garbage (or did you mean named as well) and T2 equipment is easily affordable by even newer players. I've never been rich (by EVE standards ~2 bil plus assets at any given time) and I don't even blink buying T2 fits. Often my fits are looted from my victims in fact and T2 is pretty standard more often than not. You shouldn't be relying on PvP for income but when you loot all that T2 stuff just hang onto it if you'll use it then buy a hull slap on the salvaged mods and insure it if you like. If it takes you hours to buy a T1 hull you need a better way to make ISK. EDIT: I would like to point out that I've been a low sec dweller for most of my 5 years in this game so this would largely affect me and I still don't feel it's needed because as I said losing a PvP ship is just not that bad, I have more and can easily replace the one I just lost because I don't fly what I can't afford.
Mary Clarissa Titor 5	Posted - 2012.12.15 12:12:00 - [3] - Quote I don't think I agree with the solution, but I think the statements the proposal is based on need some serious discussion: PVE is always ISK-positive and thus sustains itself. (definitely true) PVP is always a ISK-negative, and thus unsustainable activity. (some doubts about that after the new bounties and FW changes, but for the most part, yes.) PVP-oriented players can't sustain their activity and leave, PVE-oriented players stick, which causes highsec overpopulation. I have doubts that 2 causes 3, but it obviously might. How would we (or, for that matter, CCP) go about clearly confirming or denying it, when we can't ask the players who have already left?
Xanos Blackpaw Inadeptus Mechanicus 8	Posted - 2012.12.15 12:42:00 - [4] - Quote This is a stupid idea. The 'dead is dead' thing is the only thing keeping EvE pvp alive as it is. Without the risk of actually losing something or making the other guy lose something, this game would crash and burn in months.
Vaju Enki Secular Wisdom 209	Posted - 2012.12.15 14:35:00 - [5] - Quote Ridiculous proposal If you want instant gratification, go stimulate your genitals. EvE is Hard, deal with it.
Jawas The Scope Gallente Federation 11	Posted - 2012.12.15 17:29:00 - [6] - Quote I am speaking of named gear as well but not top meta tags costing several million isk compared to a hundred isk for a basic T1, I'm on about minor named items that are easy to replace like Scout etc. Like I said, there will always be hardcore players who will venture down into nullsec. It's probably the hardcore players like that who are saying the idea is stupid or ridiculous. OK, for you maybe it is but for someone who has just created a new account, it would be helpful to get them addicted before you hit them with the harsh reality of Eve. The biggest problem is, as Valleria Darkmoon pointed out, getting over that initial fear of losing a ship. However, losing one and having to spend hours grinding for a replacement are two different things. Also, you have to factor in habit as well, someone who has become normalised to mining and making isk in highsec is not going to easily convert to PVP in lowsec, staying in safer space for so long has become habitual. Losing isk in loswec encounters is hardly going to be a lure and forcing them to do it will only result in cancelled subs. What I am proposing is a system that would help new players experience PVP and at the same time not result in heavy losses of isk. Saying "don't fly what you can't afford to lose" is fine but we are back to making tons of isk before you can PVP and making isk in safe space becoming habitual or the player deciding that it's too hardcore for them, it's counter productive. It's far better to ease a new player into PVP gradually rather than dropping them in at the deep end as it is now. The number of SP dictates where the insurance cut-off is so that, as they gain more skill, they start to feel the losses as they do now. The insurance payout could even reduce by set percentages with each million SP to their current values so players have time to earn enough from other activities to cover their losses in future. By the time they start geting big bills for replacements, they are already hooked on PVP
AstraPardus Lightspeed Enterprises Fidelas Constans 25	Posted - 2012.12.15 17:42:00 - [7] - Quote I think that would break the market, the Economist Dev team is weeping...I can hear them from here. The trick is getting into a corp with an SRP, a corp successful enough to throw PvP ships at their players...a corp like... :3 Every time I post is Pardy time! :3
Jawas The Scope Gallente Federation 11	Posted - 2012.12.17 13:36:00 - [8] - Quote AstraPardus wrote: I think that would break the market, the Economist Dev team is weeping...I can hear them from here. I hope that was sarcasm. You are obviously not taking into consideration, the amount a decent skilled player could make in highsec without even venturing into lowsec and you're worried about a couple of million for a replacement PVP fitted cruiser for someone with <20million SP. With maxed out mining and perfect refining skills as well as a +9 standing with the station owners, my industrial alt can make well in excess of 35 million per hour depending on what I mine. That would equate to about 8 or 9 lost, fully fitted frigates. I'd say anyone who loses that many ships per hour, considering they have to run around highsec to refit every replacement needs to learn the meaning of suicidal tendencies and consider that the lowsec gate they are using may not be the most sensible route into lowsec. The economy is already broken and the new Venture mining ship that ALL new players get FOC has broken it even further. Not only
Aptenodytes Reckless Abandon 32	Posted - 2012.12.17 14:37:00 - [9] - Quote Jawas wrote: The economy is already broken Really? It seems to work just fine to me. When I need ISK, I earn ISK. When I need to buy something, I buy it. What exactly does "broken" mean? Please answer that in 1 sentence not 4 pages... Your views seem to come from a perspective that has nothing to do with REAL PVP. It doesn't sound like you have much experience. You do not have to grind missions for hours just for a few minutes fun; if you do, then you're doing it wrong. If you can do level 4 missions for an hour then you can fly T1 cruisers and destroyers for a good few hours PVP. If you can only do level 2's then you can fly T1 frigs in PVP for hours. If you're only getting a few minutes PVP then you need to stop soloing, or find some new wingmen.
Piugattuk Lima beans Corp 121	Posted - 2012.12.17 15:20:00 - [10] - Quote I would agree with you to the point of your three paragraphs. However to the insurance changes I think it's a bad ideal cause the potential for abuse by cleaver players. And 100% payouts means loss of risk for PVP players takes that "thrill" factor away thus not enhancing the game. Cause I myself would take any industry ship I didn't want that I bought for cheaper then players manipulate market then cash out.
X Gallentius Justified Chaos 692	Posted - 2012.12.17 19:33:00 - [11] - Quote Join FW, earn LP and pew at the same time. Run one minor plex (10 minutes and can get a fight too) and be able to afford 20 T1 fit frigates. Have at it guys.
Crimeo Khamsi AirHogs Zulu People 66	Posted - 2012.12.17 20:09:00 - [12] - Quote Uh, you can't have insurance for modules, for the very simple reason that modules are lootable. 1) Fill up ship full of expensive modules 2) "Insure" it (what you are talking about is nothing remotely close to what actual insurance is) 3) Blow it up yourself, and get all your money back for the modules 4) Loot the 50% of the modules that get dropped. You now have 150% of your original isk. 5) Repeat steps 1-4. Yay! Magical isk printing machine! Quote: And 100% payouts means loss of risk for PVP players takes that "thrill" factor away thus not enhancing the game. Also, this. What on earth is the point of pvp if you can just be like "Lol! Taking the carrier out to go mining with t1 mining lasers. Wanna come with? If it blows up we will just buy another one immediately" ? Everyone would just be flying Titans around everywhere and hanging out almost exclusively in null (better rewards, and zero risk)
Daichi Yamato Swamp Bucket Swamp Bucket Empire 77	Posted - 2012.12.18 02:03:00 - [13] - Quote Bad idea because Making more isk available to players (new or not) or making losses less of a penalty will just encourage a faster rate of inflation, leaving noobs in exactly the same position they are now. Ur doing it wrong because newer players that want to get into pvp should not be trying to buy expensive blingy ships and expecting to be able to take on the pro solo pvp'ers in low sec. U have along way to go in skill points, piloting skill AND isk to get to that point. Instead newer players should focus on flying simple, cheap and expendable ships until they learn the ropes. Fly these ships in groups with other noobs (u should definitely try tagging along on at least one of RvB's sunday roams) and u wont need to grind for hours whilst still being somewhat formidable. it is difficult to make money in PVP because it is so competitive. U cannot just be a general pvp'er and expect to profit from the activity when only half of the loot drops. u'd need to kill 4-5 ships for each one lost to break even, but this is of course highly dependent on the drops. so u have to be an exceptional pvp'er to make money from it and/or u need to be a very well known corp/alliance to be sought after as mercs. there is also the way of the ganker, where u can make billions with a tiny 2mil isk ship, but u wont be popular amongst other carebears. The way it is PVP in eve is an art that most of us do as a hobby and pay for it with our day jobs (missioning, mining). However, there are those with the skill and resources to make a living from it. U need to understand If losses become meaningless, then carelessness is not penalized. and if carelessness is not penalized, then carefulness and diligence is not rewarded. Suddenly an influx of idiots and WoW players that don't belong. This would be a more likely cause for the game to close down as the core subscribers and the people who stick with this game and keep coming back, would leave for good.
Jawas The Scope Gallente Federation 11	Posted - 2012.12.18 23:35:00 - [14] - Quote Crimeo Khamsi wrote: Uh, you can't have insurance for modules, for the very simple reason that modules are lootable. 1) Fill up ship full of expensive modules 2) "Insure" it (what you are talking about is nothing remotely close to what actual insurance is) 3) Blow it up yourself, and get all your money back for the modules 4) Loot the 50% of the modules that get dropped. You now have 150% - 30% cost of insurance = 120% of your original isk. 5) Repeat steps 1-4. Yay! Magical isk printing machine! If you use crazy 500,000,000 isk named officers modules and stuff, you could make a plex in about 5 minutes (well, at least you can before the plex market gets inflated by insurance abusers and prices rise to 100 billion per PLEX) Quote: And 100% payouts means loss of risk for PVP players takes that "thrill" factor away thus not enhancing the game. Also, this. What on earth is the point of pvp if you can just be like "Lol! Taking the carrier out to go mining with t1 mining lasers. Wanna come with? If it blows up we will just buy another one immediately" ? Everyone would just be using freighters to move 5000m^3 of tritanium for the fun of it and flying Titans around everywhere and hanging out almost exclusively in null (better rewards, and zero risk) 1. You get the replacement of the item you lost paid for by the insurance. You DO NOT get the isk. Nor do you get the difference if you buy a cheaper one. I thought I'd already made that clear. 2. Officer modules will not be included. I did say only standard modules up to a certain meta level. 3. Cargo isn't insured. This is to promote PVP and not transport runs. 4. Anyone skilled enough to fly a Freighter or Titan would be well over the SP cut-off point. Remember this is ONLY for new players up to a certain SP level. I also made that clear right at the beginning. OK, I forgot the lootable mods. Maybe subtract the drops from the insurance. That would create a small loss but not really enough to put off a new pilot. @Daichi Yamato This doesn't make any more isk available. Read #1 above. A real PVPer doesn't give a damn about carebears. When you have guns mounted, everything is a potential target. Skill is something that has to be learned (not the time based skills you buy). You don't learn them by mining all day, you have to go out and do it to learn how to do it properly. Losses only become meaningless for a short time to get you into it. Once the cut-off SP is hit, you are on the standard insurance package. As I said, it could also be done ion a sliding scale with each million SP reducing the insurance payout by a given percentage. Lets call it 5% just as a round figure. So, when you have trained an extra 1 million SP over your base SP, you only get the remaining 95% of the item paid for. At a certain point, it is cheaper to buy your own insurance.
Daichi Yamato Swamp Bucket Swamp Bucket Empire 77	Posted - 2012.12.21 22:44:00 - [15] - Quote Jawas wrote: [quote=Crimeo Khamsi] @Daichi Yamato This doesn't make any more isk available. Read #1 above. read number one and i see that the losing players will not be spending isk to replace the said items. This gives a greater supply of isk (as they havent been spending as much, everyone has more) and therefore reduces its value...whoops inflation. go learn how to pvp properly by finding other ppl to play with, having the more experienced ones teach u and flying along side the other noobs in non-expensive ships.
Beta Miner COBRA Logistics Outer-Haven 16	Posted - 2012.12.22 04:54:00 - [16] - Quote There are some really big problems in Eve: There is too much isk in the game. Nulsec is completely empty. There are not enough incentives to leave high sec. Pvp is actually a lot cheaper/more fun than people think re: X Gallentius wrote: Join FW, earn LP and pew at the same time. Run one minor plex (10 minutes and can get a fight too) and be able to afford 20 T1 fit frigates. Have at it guys. Making insurance payouts as lucrative as the OP want's would be completely, utterly, destructively counter productive.
Seranova Farreach DEEP-SPACE CO-OP LTD Exhale. 48	Posted - 2012.12.22 09:23:00 - [17] - Quote maybe while in the militia you should be given a "basic Faction war frigate" for the faction you join when you dock up in your pod or w/e a bit like how the "noobships" are the gateway back to pve there should be a pvp one too which is good enough to fend off or atleast live a bit longer against t1 fit t1 frigates and possably also to allow them to beable to be good enough to do like L1 and/or L2 fw sites so they can get the LP needed for a Navy frig?
Kuro Bon Running with Knives Nexus Fleet 24	Posted - 2012.12.22 15:41:00 - [18] - Quote It is not PVP for new players to get blown up by vets, even with free ships. CCP need to provide a place where cheap ships are only at risk of other cheap ships. ...like Novice FW sites, but they need to remove faction and pirate hulls and ban neutrals. I signed up for FW, thought I would explore some fun novice PVP and got trounced by a neutral 250M ISK daredevil. 100M ISK per hour is about $3US an hour. -áIt's more efficient to work at starbucks.-á Playing the game doesn't advance skills, kinda like ProgressQuest.
Daichi Yamato Swamp Bucket Swamp Bucket Empire 77	Posted - 2012.12.23 01:50:00 - [19] - Quote dnt venture out alone. find friends and learn from each other. RvB are really great for this.
Asuka Solo Stark Fujikawa Stark Enterprises 1872	Posted - 2012.12.23 12:06:00 - [20] - Quote Just move ABC roids to Hi-sec. Mineral prices will plummit... as will the cost of PvP. Problem solved. Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!
Meditril T.R.I.A.D 172	Posted - 2012.12.23 20:15:00 - [21] - Quote Simply no. When working and discussing with noobs I usually found out that there are two main types of players in this game: Type A are those who want to get virtually rich and who really care much about ISK/hour ratios etc. This type of players usually don't do PVP because after some tries of PVP they find out that PVP income is not reliable and that the ISK/hours ratio is bad. There is no way to make them like PVP except for you make a ship loss being irrelevant which would completely break EVE. Finally, there is type B of players. They play mainly for the fun, they tend to like PVP once they have found a somehow stable source of income. Your approach would not really help those players since they currently do already PVP regardless of the losses they have from it.
Daichi Yamato Swamp Bucket Swamp Bucket Empire 77	Posted - 2012.12.24 00:01:00 - [22] - Quote Meditril wrote: Simply no. When working and discussing with noobs I usually found out that there are two main types of players in this game: Type A are those who want to get virtually rich and who really care much about ISK/hour ratios etc. This type of players usually don't do PVP because after some tries of PVP they find out that PVP income is not reliable and that the ISK/hours ratio is bad. There is no way to make them like PVP except for you make a ship loss being irrelevant which would completely break EVE. Finally, there is type B of players. They play mainly for the fun, they tend to like PVP once they have found a somehow stable source of income. Your approach would not really help those players since they currently do already PVP regardless of the losses they have from it. i wish i'd thought of this
Red Teufel Blackened Skies 149	Posted - 2012.12.24 00:44:00 - [23] - Quote Its called having balls. most people don't have them or people wouldn't need to buy them to hang off of their pickups.
Beta Miner COBRA Logistics Outer-Haven 17	Posted - 2012.12.24 00:55:00 - [24] - Quote Kuro Bon wrote: If you want more novice PVP players, CCP needs to provide a place where cheap ships are only at risk of other cheap ships. A shallow end of PVP with some balance....like Novice FW sites, but they need to remove faction and pirate hulls and ban neutrals. It is not PVP for new players to get blown up by vets, even with free ships. Good idea .. I was some what disappointed that CCP chickened out on the noob ship/T1 FW plex's and allowed destroyers in. AFK Cloaking? An afk cloaker has never ganked me. In fact a cloaker at his keybourd has never ganked me either. I don't mean to be rude, but HTFU.
Kahega Amielden Rifterlings Damu'Khonde 531	Posted - 2012.12.24 01:53:00 - [25] - Quote Quote: Good idea .. I was some what disappointed that CCP chickened out on the noob ship/T1 FW plex's and allowed destroyers in. The hell are you talking about. Novice plexes only allow t1/faction frigates in. Destroyers are put with t2 frigates in smalls. Quote: 100% insurance payout for replacement T1 ship and mods. The insurance should cover the cost of ALL T1 ship losses, including T1 mods and such so new PVP players are not discouraged. Implants if you are podded are not included as it's your choice to go PVPing with a head full of expensive implants. Clones under a certain grade are also reimbursed by insurance to reduce the losses for new players. No one avoids PVP because t1 ships and modules are expensive. No one. You make more than that just picking up random loot on gates roaming around to find fights.
Scaramanga Erquilenne 14	Posted - 2012.12.24 02:06:00 - [26] - Quote As a new player i would like to get involved in some PVP but at the moment pure economics are keeping me away from it and getting my skills up to a decent level.Running some L2 missions at the moment and learn some basics that way and reading upon tactics and waiting for skills to train I look at the market and the cost of a good frigate and a good fitting would take me days of grinding to get.So many ships and good modules seem to have shot up in price according to the market graphs for the past year .And there is so much competition on the market that profits margins are tiny for new players unless you want to grind for hours mining.Unless you got money to burn on plex your going to have to get a good source of income to fund your PVP and that leads you to invest time in training your industry and mining skills and in turn delays your combat skills training unless you got money to spend on a alt as well So far me my focus and funds have been spent on skill books and skill points have mostly went in to developing a income to be able to replace ships with out having to grind for to many hours .I have no fear of losing a ship but i have a fear of having to grind for days to to replace it.Unless your in a good corp that will cover your ship losses are have plex to burn i really dont see the point in picking fights with people you cant hope to compete with.I like the idea of of RvB's Sunday roams will check that out and the suggestion about a PVP for newer players of a similar level is a good idea I agree with the OP maybe they could do more to encourage new players to try PVP at least once. But i also understand that each loss of a ship should have a cost and a meaning to the player and the victor .As a new player i dont see PVP outside of a corp being a viable option for at least the first six months of game play unless its one way ticket trip are you have plex to burn .But lucky for me i enjoy the learning about industry and markets and building stuff.Soon as i have the ability and skills to have a decent income i will look at PVP
Beta Miner COBRA Logistics Outer-Haven 17	Posted - 2012.12.24 03:05:00 - [27] - Quote Kahega Amielden wrote: The hell are you talking about. Novice plexes only allow t1/faction frigates in. Fixed. AFK Cloaking? An afk cloaker has never ganked me. In fact a cloaker at his keybourd has never ganked me either. I don't mean to be rude, but HTFU.

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