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Azhraell
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Posted - 2003.07.08 07:51:00 -
[1]
Why is this frigate so overlooked? It is, to the best of my knowledge, the best fighting frigate overall. Although the Rifter is usually decorated with that title, the Punisher has nearly all stats equal or better than it, plus two additional low slots; the single area where it trails behind is the base speed of 250 against the Rifter's speed of 300. While speed is a strong point for frigates and as such important, it's only a single area of deficiency, and easily rectifiable with some skills and modules (granted, the two med slots only hinder, but not so greatly).
Any thoughts?
Edited by: Azhraell on 08/07/2003 07:51:58
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Dragon Emperor
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Posted - 2003.07.08 08:27:00 -
[2]
it's too slow, rifter is better.
simply fact: with rifter, you should be ablt to easy hunt barons.. with punisher, you'll suffer...
Edited by: Dragon Emperor on 08/07/2003 08:28:38
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Azhraell
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Posted - 2003.07.08 11:54:00 -
[3]
Well, mine goes at a decent 520 m/sec, has 325 cap, 315 shield, 275 structure, 315 armor (might be off by small amounts, can't check precisely atm). Quite durable. And not to mention powergrid output 53 and cpu 150+. :)
Can a rifter offset all that with just speed?
Edited by: Azhraell on 08/07/2003 11:54:43
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Lyzander
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Posted - 2003.07.08 14:00:00 -
[4]
I agree... I know people who have taken out PC Cruisers with Punishers.
CME Forums
EVE-I |
Karash Amerius
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Posted - 2003.07.08 14:05:00 -
[5]
A group of punishers acting under good leadership is a group to be feared. It is strategically highly mobile, has good options, and can hurt a battlegroup signifigantly.
With the new combat balancing, frigates are definately in the mix in fleet operations, especially when you notice that people always fire at the biggest ship first. :)
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Letifer Deus
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Posted - 2003.07.08 22:47:00 -
[6]
I'll take a kestrel with heavies or cruise missles any day. (For PvP that is)
I am the OG PIIIIIMP |
Slithereen
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Posted - 2003.07.09 00:56:00 -
[7]
I own both the Rifter and the Punisher, not to mention the other contenders to the "best" frigate title: Merlin, Tristan, Kestrel, Incursus. Not to mention being an Amarr, the Punisher is the first frigate I got since moving up from a Tormentor.
In my experience, nothing matches the Rifter. Sure you can jack up the Punisher's speed, but you can also do so in the Rifter.
What makes the Rifter so effective is the Projectile bonuses. Recent projectile nerfing only affected certain cruiser weapons but not the frigate weapons. The 250mm Light Artillery Cannon is perhaps the best frigate weapon there is in terms of damage, rate of fire, energy and fitting requirements. Then stack it with lateral stabilizers. It's better than a standard targeted missile, which the Rifter can still hold in a fourth slot.
The combination of missiles, longer range projectile cannons and speed means the Rifter can keep its distance and pick its targets off. The Punisher is good for close in brawling when you can put the fourth hi slot to use with a bomb.
You can alter the layout to two 250mm LACs, and then with the 2 M-12 launchers, use six Heavy Missiles, and you got a machine serious for PvP frigate fighting or NPC cruiser killing.
Edited by: Slithereen on 09/07/2003 00:57:19
_______________________________________________
"Is it me or the bad guys just getting totally pathetic?"---Clover, Totally Spies,
"Hope is wasted on the Hopeless."---Mandy, The Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy.
"Stars are holes in the sky from which the light of the Infinite shine through."---Confucius.
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netburnr
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Posted - 2003.07.09 01:41:00 -
[8]
Posted by Karash:
<A group of punishers acting under good leadership is a group to be feared. It is strategically highly mobile, has good options, and can hurt a battlegroup signifigantly.>
We could always prove how well the punisher works, i wouldnt mind a bit :)
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Azhraell
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Posted - 2003.07.09 04:41:00 -
[9]
Sounds convincing, Slithereen. I'll check out Rifters with that loadout. We could also arrange a practical demonstration if you like. :)
Edited by: Azhraell on 09/07/2003 04:42:06
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Slithereen
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Posted - 2003.07.09 07:39:00 -
[10]
By the way, no Rifter ever traveled at 300m/s. A Rifter requires level 3, and for each Minmatar frigate level, you get a 5% boost in speed.
I do 400 m/s without any overdrive or afterburner. Minmatar level 4 and nav 4 puts me well above 450 m/s. W/O OD and AB.
Projectile weapons do not consume as much energy as other weapons. Even with a weaker power grid, this means the Rifter has more than abundant energy to keep running its shield booster. Missile weapons don't consume energy at all. Compare this with Punisher+ 3 Energy weapons; Merlin + 2 hybrid weapons and Tristan + 2 hybrid weapons.
Missiles really own, and the lack of it I think hurts the Punisher, which used to have them in beta. That's why it had a fourth hi slot. The frigates were nerfed going from beta to gold, and the Rifter actually had the most nerfing to do---it was even faster before. Still, the Rifter maintained its edge, even though it was narrower.
The lack of missiles hurt the Punisher compared to the likes of the Merlin (two launchers) and the Tristan (one launcher). Imagine the Caldari Kestrel, which has four missile launchers---which when four standard missiles are fired in one strike, amounts to 200 dmg.
The Amarr ship that has been grossly underrated all along is actually the Inquisitor, which can pack three missile launchers. That's one less than a Kestrel, but the Inquisitor is more robustly built and protected, and slightly more versatile since the Inq can use one turret, while the Kestrel has none.
_______________________________________________
"Is it me or the bad guys just getting totally pathetic?"---Clover, Totally Spies,
"Hope is wasted on the Hopeless."---Mandy, The Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy.
"Stars are holes in the sky from which the light of the Infinite shine through."---Confucius.
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Dragon Emperor
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Posted - 2003.07.09 07:54:00 -
[11]
actually missile is useless, any player know what he's doing won't get hit by missile.... either from smartbomb,defender missile or simply out run missile.....hell, even frigate is able to install micro smartbombs.......
vs npc pirates, missile is just not efficiency way to do hunting money wise.....
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Nicholas Marshal
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Posted - 2003.07.09 08:26:00 -
[12]
I use a rifter. I can currently get up to 950m/s with 2 arc ject ABs engaged.
I use 2 250 arty pieces, and a railgun. I can deal about 100 damage a hit (potentially - all three turrets combined).
Am currently training surgical strike lvl4. I will then train minmitar lvl 4 and, small projectile lvl4. That should raise my damage potential substantially.
My rifter is certainly a LOT better than the Merlin I also own.
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ULTIMA TREX
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Posted - 2003.07.09 10:41:00 -
[13]
I got a Punisher. think its quite cool.
it is strong but it cant hold the larger weapons because of its power grid and cpu. if i wanted to face pvp then id want to use an incurses, why? because of the similar layout as punisher except it has 100m3 for drone space. 3 guns plus 2 drones vs a punisher with 3 guns only aint gonna win.
Edited by: ULTIMA TREX on 09/07/2003 10:41:51
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Slithereen
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Posted - 2003.07.10 02:02:00 -
[14]
I also have an Incursus, but with my experience on the Punisher as well, I would favor the Punisher.
Why?
Powergrid on the Incursus is a bit limited compared to the Punisher which is the best of the frigates. Even if you add caps and power boosters on the Incursus, the Punisher will still win because you got more low slots on the Punisher to add more power diagnostic units and reactor units. I will just put my small shield booster on autorepeat and it will last a lot longer on the Punisher.
With three hybrids you will quickly run out of juice on the Incursus, while the Punisher with lasers will continue to have more so. Not to mention you can stack more heat sinks on the Punisher, up to four, while the Incursus can stack only two stabilizers, using the respective weapons strengths of each frigate.
A smartbomb on the fourth punisher hi slot will quickly put an end to any drone.
I disagree that it is a good idea to stop missiles with smartbombs. You will end up using too much energy, while the enemy could fire and fire.
_______________________________________________
"Is it me or the bad guys just getting totally pathetic?"---Clover, Totally Spies,
"Hope is wasted on the Hopeless."---Mandy, The Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy.
"Stars are holes in the sky from which the light of the Infinite shine through."---Confucius.
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Dragon Emperor
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Posted - 2003.07.10 04:55:00 -
[15]
You disagree using smartbombs to defend missiles? lol......no comments...
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Slithereen
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Posted - 2003.07.10 05:38:00 -
[16]
And you think missiles are useless, LOL...
_______________________________________________
"Is it me or the bad guys just getting totally pathetic?"---Clover, Totally Spies,
"Hope is wasted on the Hopeless."---Mandy, The Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy.
"Stars are holes in the sky from which the light of the Infinite shine through."---Confucius.
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Dragon Emperor
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Posted - 2003.07.10 05:50:00 -
[17]
Missile IS useless atm. There's no way you can hit any player who know what he's doing. And vs NPC, it's just waste money.
And as a amarr ship pilot, you disagree to use smartbomb to defend missile.... LOL
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Slithereen
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Posted - 2003.07.10 05:59:00 -
[18]
LOL, a Kestrel can pump out 12 missiles---600 dmg---in 12 seconds from four A-3 launchers (the pirate launcher shoots a missile in five seconds.)
Or four HEAVY missiles in an alpha strike.
You keep using your smartbomb you will run out of energy for your guns and shields. Your smartbomb won't save you either from missile splash damage.
A good Merlin/Rifter/Tristan pilot will use combined gun and missile attacks. The energy you spend on your smartbomb won't be going to your shield booster as your shields are being simultaneously hit by gunfire.
Defender missiles? They usually cost more than a standard/targeted missile.
Edited by: Slithereen on 10/07/2003 06:02:29
_______________________________________________
"Is it me or the bad guys just getting totally pathetic?"---Clover, Totally Spies,
"Hope is wasted on the Hopeless."---Mandy, The Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy.
"Stars are holes in the sky from which the light of the Infinite shine through."---Confucius.
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Dragon Emperor
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Posted - 2003.07.10 06:03:00 -
[19]
I'm afraid the combat never restrict to frigate...... any experienced player should be in top cruiser by now......
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Slithereen
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Posted - 2003.07.10 06:08:00 -
[20]
Read the topic Mister.
What class of ship is that topic?
_______________________________________________
"Is it me or the bad guys just getting totally pathetic?"---Clover, Totally Spies,
"Hope is wasted on the Hopeless."---Mandy, The Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy.
"Stars are holes in the sky from which the light of the Infinite shine through."---Confucius.
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Dragon Emperor
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Posted - 2003.07.10 06:10:00 -
[21]
We talk about missile not punisher right?
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Slithereen
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Posted - 2003.07.10 06:13:00 -
[22]
We're talking missiles in the frigate "Punisher" context, Mister. Read the topic. Talk about missiles as a pure issue of itself elsewhere.
_______________________________________________
"Is it me or the bad guys just getting totally pathetic?"---Clover, Totally Spies,
"Hope is wasted on the Hopeless."---Mandy, The Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy.
"Stars are holes in the sky from which the light of the Infinite shine through."---Confucius.
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Dragon Emperor
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Posted - 2003.07.10 06:14:00 -
[23]
I'm sorry, there's no missile in punisher......MISTER...?? Please talk your frigate missile combat elsewhere, stay on topic.. lol
Edited by: Dragon Emperor on 10/07/2003 06:15:56
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Slithereen
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Posted - 2003.07.10 06:16:00 -
[24]
Read the posts in the thread, Mister. We are comparing the Punisher with other frigates like those that has missiles like the Rifter.
Edited by: Slithereen on 10/07/2003 06:18:25
_______________________________________________
"Is it me or the bad guys just getting totally pathetic?"---Clover, Totally Spies,
"Hope is wasted on the Hopeless."---Mandy, The Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy.
"Stars are holes in the sky from which the light of the Infinite shine through."---Confucius.
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Dragon Emperor
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Posted - 2003.07.10 06:21:00 -
[25]
from you say //
And you think missiles are useless, LOL...
//
that's already off topic...lol, no offence,but ..well....
missile frigate vs another player frigate? I'm afraid that won't happen too much so it's just waste time to discuss that. normal topic about missile vs player? then missile IS useless....
missile vs NPC? in frigate, I'm afraid you only have capability to hunt up to 30k cruiser. and use missile is just a way to waste money......
Edited by: Dragon Emperor on 10/07/2003 06:22:29
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Slithereen
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Posted - 2003.07.10 06:29:00 -
[26]
LOL
Shooting 3K heavy missiles at 30K NPC cruisers a waste of money?
As for PVP, you use ANYTHING to get ahead. Energy used to detonate a smart bomb is less energy used to boost your shields and power your guns. Missiles do not cost energy for the attacker, but using a smartbomb costs energy for the defender.
You mentioned microsmart bombs. that's a frigate weapon. So you're talking about defending yourself with smartbombs from NPC pirates with missiles.
_______________________________________________
"Is it me or the bad guys just getting totally pathetic?"---Clover, Totally Spies,
"Hope is wasted on the Hopeless."---Mandy, The Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy.
"Stars are holes in the sky from which the light of the Infinite shine through."---Confucius.
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Damon Vile
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Posted - 2003.07.10 07:34:00 -
[27]
A smart bomb is not a 100% missile avoidance system. Maybe if you're only fighting NPCs but if you think players fight the same way...you're an idiot. ( well it's true :P )
Heavy and cruise missiles are not very good vrs a frigate though and a torp is usless. Light and rockets are somewhat better. The true value of a missile in frigate combat (IMO ofc) is the extents ppl go to, to get away from them.
Firgate combat is almost 100% speed.
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Dragon Emperor
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Posted - 2003.07.10 07:45:00 -
[28]
smartbomb are not 100% missile avoid system, smartbomb + speed is. How long your missile can fly? huh? There's a reason most pvper fit as many turrets as possible, not missile. how many pvp missile fight you ever saw? less than 10% i guess? Plus how many damage you can do from turrets? which one has higher dmg/sec? missile or top gun?
BTW, jump out from nowhere and insult people immediately will only end with 1 result: prove yourself as the insult thing you trying to say.
Edited by: Dragon Emperor on 10/07/2003 07:47:33
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Damon Vile
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Posted - 2003.07.10 07:55:00 -
[29]
sorry I wasn't insulting you I was insulting anyone who thought their smartbomb works great on NPC pirates so it will on ppl. There seem to be alot of ppl out there that have set ups for NPCs that work great then get owned in PvP and don't understand why.....but anyhow thats a different topic :)
Most ppl don't use missiles because they do what everyone else does. 90% of the ppl in eve have the same configs on their ships.
Missiles have there use, if you use them right they can win alot of fights for you. They are not the end all weapon but they are far from useless.
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Dragon Emperor
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Posted - 2003.07.10 08:01:00 -
[30]
PvP fight always end as who can do most damage in shortest time win. As current status, top guns' dmg/sec is much higher than missiles. Plus missiles have good chance to be avoid...
The only good use of missiles are using fof missiles when you are target disturbed in my opinion lmao... :)
Edited by: Dragon Emperor on 10/07/2003 08:03:12
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