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Spahn X
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Posted - 2005.05.25 05:31:00 -
[1]
I may be wrong here, but a little quick math tells me that going 6.0 AU/s is roughly equivalent to 900 billion km/s which is roughly 3000 times the speed of light. There would need to be a radical overhaul of relativity and quantum theory to explain this. So did the designers of Eve take this into account? Or did they simply choose the "because it's the future" route?
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F'nog
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Posted - 2005.05.25 06:27:00 -
[2]
It should be explained in the Chronicles. I don't remember which one, though.
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Khrystoff
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Posted - 2005.05.25 06:59:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Khrystoff on 25/05/2005 07:00:59
Originally by: Spahn X I may be wrong here, but a little quick math tells me that going 6.0 AU/s is roughly equivalent to 900 billion km/s which is roughly 3000 times the speed of light. There would need to be a radical overhaul of relativity and quantum theory to explain this. So did the designers of Eve take this into account? Or did they simply choose the "because it's the future" route?
I've got your explanation right here!
"video games with pure realism and real-world-physics SUCK"
but beyond that, the science of EVE is explained along with it's backstory here (and it's oh so much more than "it's the future" or "it's a game so physics don't count): EVE Scientific Articles
it's a good read! check it out
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Spahn X
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Posted - 2005.05.25 09:10:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Spahn X on 25/05/2005 09:11:48 Well I read most of the section on interstellar transport, but that still leaves out warp drive, unless I missed something.
Sure, they go into great detail on jump gates and jump drives, but isn't this different than warp drive?
When jumping, you are folding space, so basically you are making the distance from A to B shorter, however, in warp drive, you are not folding space, you are simply accelerating an object (your ship) to ~3000*c, which allows you to instead reach your destination much faster just by moving faster.
Now this is where I think the paradox comes in. The chicken and egg if you will.
I personally view the ability to travel ~3000*c while sitting in a tin can much more of advanced a skill than creating artificial wormholes and building jump gates to utilize them. So if I am correct, and artificial wormholes and jump gates were created first, then how were they built if you must travel normal space in order to build your destination gate?
If you consider that jump gates were built after the ability to warp at ~3000*c, that explains fully how jump gates could have been built, however if that is true then there would not be the problem of taking such a long time to arrive at a location to build a destination gate, because by that time there would have been plenty of available resources and personnel nearby to build a destination gate, since they've had all that extra time to travel there.
It does say that the first drives were capable of 1/10*c but then it just spins off and never mentions when the current technology was invented.
Though I do give CCP a gold star for effort.
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Vel Kyri
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Posted - 2005.05.25 09:30:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Vel Kyri on 25/05/2005 09:31:01 basically warp drives and jump drives are the same thigns, on a different scale.
both are making a wormhole/tunnel in space which you travel through.
jump gates travel much much faster and further, but can only jump from system to system
warp drive is a small scale version of the same thing, but it takes much longer...
that's how i've always seen it... -----
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Rodj Blake
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Posted - 2005.05.25 10:12:00 -
[6]
Vel is correct.
Basically, rather than travelling through normal space, you're travelling through a wormhole.
If you look at your ship when in warp, you'll see a spiffy tunnel effect.
This also explains how you can warp through planets.
Dolce et decorum est pro imperator mori |
Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2005.05.25 12:11:00 -
[7]
The EVE method of warp drive uses quantum tunneling, IIRC. Warp is certainly possible in the real world using a warp bubble (different method), but due to the insanely massive energy usage, its completely impracticle (think 1000 suns). -- The best description of alliances, ever:
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Spahn X
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Posted - 2005.05.26 03:15:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Vel Kyri Edited by: Vel Kyri on 25/05/2005 09:31:01 basically warp drives and jump drives are the same thigns, on a different scale.
both are making a wormhole/tunnel in space which you travel through.
jump gates travel much much faster and further, but can only jump from system to system
warp drive is a small scale version of the same thing, but it takes much longer...
that's how i've always seen it...
I'm not so sure I agree.
"Jump gates are built around artificial wormholes, created by exploiting gravitational resonances found in binary systems. This resonance is as a friction between gravitational waves of stellar objects, the more massive the objects, the stronger the resonance between them. Positions of planets in a solar system, as well as the complex structure of dust rings around heavy planets illustrate this resonance."
...and...
"So what is the elusive answer to FTL travel? It was found through advanced research in the field of quantum electrodynamics. By creating depleted vacuum, that is, vacuum as found in space but completely stripped of all energy, and then expanding this depleted vacuum to envelop a ship, the ship is capable of moving faster than light through this bubble of depleted vacuum. A depleted vacuum bubble is more than frictionless û it is so anti-friction that things (including light) actually move faster in it than they would in complete vacuum."
What this all says to me is that while the concept of an artificial wormhole is quite obvious and explained as such, this "depleted vacuum bubble", while similar in effect, is quite different in practice. Simply put, you are not folding two very distant points in space close enough to each other so as to facilitate the rapid travel between the two. What you are doing is "greasing" your ship so that normal acceleration actually has a compounded effect.
See the difference?
And I'm sticking to my point that any travel ~3000*c must be immensely more difficult to achieve than folding two points in space.
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Cory
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Posted - 2005.05.26 11:55:00 -
[9]
Or you could look at it the star trek way with a matter-antimatter reaction.
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Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2005.05.26 12:21:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Cory Or you could look at it the star trek way with a matter-antimatter reaction.
The "Star Trek" way is simply a warp bubble method. The only problem with such a method in real life is that you'd need about the energy output of a few thousand stars to make it work. -- The best description of alliances, ever:
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Bandus
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Posted - 2005.05.26 12:32:00 -
[11]
Would you prefer to travel in real time then?
Captain Bandus, Human Resources Officer
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Khrystoff
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Posted - 2005.05.26 23:01:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Bandus Would you prefer to travel in real time then?
i believe this bring us back to my point that "real world physics in video games makes them immensely dull and boring and full of anti-fun"
let go your grip on reality and fire your imagination. It's a game that is meant to distract us from reality, not remind us of how boring reality is.
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Spahn X
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Posted - 2005.05.27 04:19:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Khrystoff
i believe this bring us back to my point that "real world physics in video games makes them immensely dull and boring and full of anti-fun"
let go your grip on reality and fire your imagination. It's a game that is meant to distract us from reality, not remind us of how boring reality is.
Though isn't that the point? The real world is boring, so we need games to liven it up. What better way of doing that than by making a game that forces us to question what is reality and what is not.
Once the game gives you it's explanation on what the heck is going on here (the backstory), naturally, you begin to question these things in terms of reality. It is because the game is projecting this image of reality upon itself, which your mind inherently questions.
I've lost myself.
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Asestorian
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Posted - 2005.05.27 10:21:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Spahn X
Originally by: Khrystoff
i believe this bring us back to my point that "real world physics in video games makes them immensely dull and boring and full of anti-fun"
let go your grip on reality and fire your imagination. It's a game that is meant to distract us from reality, not remind us of how boring reality is.
Though isn't that the point? The real world is boring, so we need games to liven it up. What better way of doing that than by making a game that forces us to question what is reality and what is not.
Once the game gives you it's explanation on what the heck is going on here (the backstory), naturally, you begin to question these things in terms of reality. It is because the game is projecting this image of reality upon itself, which your mind inherently questions.
I've lost myself.
Riiiiiiight.. Just forget about how it works, or just accept that CCP probably don't really know what they are talking about and are just trying to at least give some explanation and interesting backstory to their game, and enjoy yourself. There really is no need at all to worry about how ships in EVE warp, and how much more difficult it is to warp than it is to "jump".
Done that? Good, now you can enjoy running around missioning/mining/rat hunting.
----------------
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Equonis
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Posted - 2005.05.27 11:02:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Equonis on 27/05/2005 11:02:58
Originally by: Spahn X
Originally by: Khrystoff
i believe this bring us back to my point that "real world physics in video games makes them immensely dull and boring and full of anti-fun"
let go your grip on reality and fire your imagination. It's a game that is meant to distract us from reality, not remind us of how boring reality is.
Though isn't that the point? The real world is boring, so we need games to liven it up. What better way of doing that than by making a game that forces us to question what is reality and what is not.
Once the game gives you it's explanation on what the heck is going on here (the backstory), naturally, you begin to question these things in terms of reality. It is because the game is projecting this image of reality upon itself, which your mind inherently questions.
I've lost myself.
Just build a rocket, launch it, get it over with. Then play Eve Online, one of the best MMo's available.
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Cannedbeef
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Posted - 2005.05.27 11:23:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Cannedbeef on 27/05/2005 11:24:23 God dont make up numbers.
6au/s is 897 588 000 kilometers a second
Speed of light is the speed of light = 299 792 458 m / s, or 299,792 km/s
You got the 3000x the speed of light correct at least thank god, not sure what the hell numbers you used :)
on a side note: Why if jump gates require binary systems are there no binary systems?
Depleted vaccuum stretched over the ship, absolute zero friction = MASSIVE speed attainable. You aren't hitting dust, cosmic radiation, anything of the sort.
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Cosmic Dragon
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Posted - 2005.05.27 22:09:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Originally by: Cory Or you could look at it the star trek way with a matter-antimatter reaction.
The "Star Trek" way is simply a warp bubble method. The only problem with such a method in real life is that you'd need about the energy output of a few thousand stars to make it work.
Technically the mathmatical theory on this says you need all the energy produced from the sun throughout its life every second. One possable solution being offered is 0 point energy which is apparently everywhere and infinate and we can extract just enough right now to light a bulb so it is possable i guess given time and money reserching it also you will need an anti gravity bubble to stop the warp buble crushing your ship.
\Ths warp method avoids going faster than light by creating a bubble universe surrounding you and moving the univers so effectivly your ship is not really moving jus tyhe univers you are generating temporarily.
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Spahn X
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Posted - 2005.05.28 08:15:00 -
[18]
Ok you know, sorry for being such a geek. I thought it might be fun to debate this stuff, but I guess not.
Long live mario bros.
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RedClaws
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Posted - 2005.05.28 11:12:00 -
[19]
It is fun to debate this but as always some people have a different oppinion.
CCP does care about scientific backgrounds and all that , hence the backstories, but to implement these into a game that is constantly evolving is quite difficult.
I can't say why there are no binairy systems or how warp travel work but I think that if you have enough imagination and close your eyes just a bit for the loose ends in the scientific backgrounds you'll be able to enjoy eve's science as much as in real life
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Cosmic Dragon
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Posted - 2005.05.28 13:17:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Cosmic Dragon on 28/05/2005 13:18:47 For a purly fun reply to this topic id say traveling via stargate involves opening a wormhole to the target stargate. However for intersystem travel id say that the ships in eve are able to form a short term smaller weaker wormhole, its just that ships cant generate a big enough wormhole to travel between systems hence the need for stargates to generate the neccisary wormhole.
Now i knw ther is little if and hard science to support this but please remember this is just a game after all.
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Cosmic Dragon
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Posted - 2005.05.31 15:10:00 -
[21]
these topics can be a lot of fun guys
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fantomass
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Posted - 2005.05.31 18:20:00 -
[22]
:)
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Sandra Tseng
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Posted - 2005.05.31 21:21:00 -
[23]
"All space ships are equipped with a jump drive device. The jump drive creates depleted vacuum by repeatedly æcompressingÆ vacuum between two polar discs, draining all energy neutrons and quarks out of it. A laser-locked field is then created to hold the ever-increasing depleted vacuum bubble until it has enveloped the whole ship. When that happens the ship is able to enter FTL speed. Although initial experiments with the jump drive were very encouraging technology wise, problems arose in regard to navigation. Once the ship has attained FTL speed, it is very difficult for it to act or react to the world, such as for communication or scanning purposes. Numerous experiments were made, for example with compactified dimensions radio, but without success. The unpredictable nature of quantum mechanics made it very difficult to create a stable enough vacuum bubbles to allow for precise time measurements due to fluctuating speeds. Finally, a solution was found. It was discovered that gravity capacitors similar to the control system used in jump gates were able to pick up gravity signals from ænormalÆ space while the ship was on FTL speed. By locking the capacitor onto one of these signals, the ship travels to it. The bubble is then automatically dispersed once certain distance from the gravity well is acquired. The only problem is that these capacitors can only efficiently pick up signals from gravity wells of certain size or above, with the minimum being a small moon or a cluster of asteroids. Also, in order for the gravity capacitor to align correctly on the destination object in relevance to the position of the sun, it must follow a relatively narrow route towards it, resulting in a fairly restricted emerge area for the ship. This puts some limits on the jump driveÆs usage, but as all major objects in a system can be detected, this is not such a great problem. Furthermore, it is now possible to construct æfakeÆ gravity wells on space stations and jump gates, which can be detected and thus homed onto by the gravity capacitor that is part of a shipÆs jump drive."
This part is about the ships "Warp drive" which is here refered to as a "jump drive" if you read on in the thext though - you will understand that this is just a mixup of the words from the author - what he is talking about here is WARP DRIVES not JUMP DRIVES
Here is a direct link: http://www.eve-online.com/background/jump/jump_05.asp
-------------------------- Star Colonel Sandra Tseng First Rasalhague Bears Alpha Galaxy Clan Ghost Bear |
IonHammer
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Posted - 2005.06.03 01:29:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Spahn X I may be wrong here, but a little quick math tells me that going 6.0 AU/s is roughly equivalent to 900 billion km/s which is roughly 3000 times the speed of light. There would need to be a radical overhaul of relativity and quantum theory to explain this. So did the designers of Eve take this into account? Or did they simply choose the "because it's the future" route?
I always found it more interesting than seeing a load bar cycle for 15 seconds.
Further, a second at that speed would be a very long arsed second, and if you had clocks on the start and end point of the trip and on the ship and they were in sync b4 the trip what what they read at the end.
This **** does your head in,
but while your on it I havent seen too many ion blasters or mega pulse lasers floating around on earth lately, or nanite armor repairers either, these would be real handy for main battle tanks and the like.
Once you take any kind of spade to an altered reality game like eve it all will unravel.
Main hint just enjoy it for what it is, not what it isn't.
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Bill Tanner
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Posted - 2005.06.03 06:30:00 -
[25]
For that matter, why do ships have maximum speeds? Think about it...
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Cosmic Dragon
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Posted - 2005.06.03 15:55:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Bill Tanner For that matter, why do ships have maximum speeds? Think about it...
lol nice one
But to answer your point in order to make the game eve some known scietific effects like arriving at destination before you began your journey must be ignored or you get a game that cant be made or easily implimented.
Here is an interesting fact ive picked up. In the real world earths artaficial satelights like communication satelites have to reset there intrernal clocks at -1 secend every year tis is because the travel foward in time by one seceond every year. In other words because they move so fast they travel foward in time by one second per year...... A known scientific fact
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