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Mercade
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Posted - 2005.05.31 19:04:00 -
[1]
I made a post on thie awhile back, the idea is more developed now. tried to post on the blog but getting server page error and something about support has already been contacted. So while the chat is still hot, do forgive, I'd like to make this post to put another idea out there.
(paste of attempted post below)
This may be a little more involved but I hope it offers another perspective.
One of the largest governing factors of warping is the association of both the normal drive and the warp drive in something similiar to a "back to the future"ish 88 miles per hour.
What if we untethered that and made the time to warp an aspect of ship volume versus warp drive capability much as Afterburners do. You could develop 2 aspects of overlapping travel specialization that would independently create a variety of options.
Firstly, instead of your ship accelerating as it aligns for warp it would simply align and maintain the appropriate speed you've indicated from 0-max, much as exiting or entering orbit mechanic operates (remember that fix). A count down with a (preferrably graphical as well) indicator would begin stating this ship'ss warp engines are warming up very star Trekishly. A frigate could perhaps engage warp within 2 seconds -base- time, cruiser 3 and battleship 10 (notice the now independent warp to time vs agility or speed of ship, a hinderance in middle class ships like cruisers, now easier to balance). A ship could now be incredibly fast and agile but terrible to get into warp or opposite or any combination limited only by imagination.
This would allow the elimination of the battleship traveling away from the gate that instantly warps away when it feels threatened as it is already traveling and aligned.
Now you could implement 2 possible systems to adapt, a high slot navigational computer module. Allowing for more accurate warp to distance capabilities at the sacrifice of weapons slots similiar to before mentioned ideas. Where each module would allow you to arrive closer to any warp destination. As well implement a low slot warp drive engine upgrade in 1mn 10mn and 100mn classes. (Activateable?) It allows the ship's acceleration to warp to dramatically increase at the cost of slots normally used for capacity and warp stab anti scrambling defense.
From this point you could have ships maintaining formations relative to eachother in combat. A gang warp could occur with all ships leaving as the last ship's timer ends rather then having to line them all up and spread out at top speed before being gang warped.
An interceptor could 1 on 1 a battleship and dive into nos/smart bomb range to attempt to break a warp then slip out to try and survive and return back and forth in a more dynamic fight.
Some ships could get bonuses to using certain warp/nav modules allowing them to overtake prey. Or even possibly an interdiction ship or module that depending on skill and module can analyse the destination of a locked ship preparing to warp and send your ship there as well.
The warp drive augmentations would be as common place and cost oriented as AB's so their use in the newer player area would be likewise easy, using the warp drive operation skill as their foundation perhaps. Nav computers the nav skill perhaps.
You would then be able to fit ships with nav comps for better safety on arrival and warp augmentations for better safety on departure treating both areas of travel, something instas don't even assist with. Creating a more dynamic, balanced and interesting system in the end.
special thanks to Zernin for your help with this idea.
moved from general discussions -Eris D
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Dust Puppy
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Posted - 2005.05.31 19:06:00 -
[2]
You probably just timed out when trying to post in dev blog thread.
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Capacitor research |
SinBin
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Posted - 2005.05.31 19:12:00 -
[3]
I dunno for me your saying for instas what has allready been well said & i think we will go the way of a modual BUT what your realy adding is a way to warp out safer aint ya ?.
Yet at the same time messing up the skills of pilots that pre aline there ships over idiots ?.
Maybe I read it wrong but im all for getting away from killer blobs.
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Ill shutup the day CCP remove bookmarks |
Mercade
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Posted - 2005.05.31 19:19:00 -
[4]
Most likely, at work *cough* and on dialup.
To really clarify the point. By making the time to engage warp a timer that is openly shown you free ship dynamics to a different level and can address the actual aspect of warping independently of the ship's other attributes. Otherwise certain ships will make use of other changes in greater degrees, examples being shuttles with instas now and interceptors.
Ships with nanofibers for agility also get better warping ability. No one actually uses agility in consideration for anything other then warping ability really.
Larger ships wouldn't be able to just gank and run without being setup with a large portion of their low slots for engine amplification which would make them succeptible to an interceptor able to overtake what warp stabilization they have left. It would give as Oveur asked, a trade measure that is accessible by all, advanceable, specializable. Applicable both in it's measure in empire travel and in pvp without being mutually inclusive or exclusive.
It would also keep the king of low slot ships or high slot ships from being the ultimate, as one area affects the ability to get into warp, an the other how much time you speend coming out.
Tacklers could specialize non weapon frigates with navs and engine upgrades to overtake targets. and best of all it would change nothing in regards to the way warp bubbles are used or their relative effectiveness.
In the end I think the answer to the problem the developers have doesn't lay directly in a change of what we have but in an addition to the aspect of warping the allows greater fine tuning. Much like EW was changed. The ultimate gain there is now that EW isn't 100% medium slot oriented and certain ships can be focused on. That is the goal of this idea. Ships like the Sigil can be fast and agile but still indy slow to warp or reverse or how ever wanted by the developers then fine tuned by the players to suit their needs. I hope the idea at least gets acknowledgement by the developers. When I posted it last time it was like page 25 of a thread and got run over.
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spiritfa11
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Posted - 2005.05.31 19:25:00 -
[5]
wow what a great post. finally someone who actually thought about an issue and posted an alternative instead of a whine.
props to you mercade
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Mercade
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Posted - 2005.05.31 19:26:00 -
[6]
 Originally by: SinBin
I dunno for me your saying for instas what has allready been well said & i think we will go the way of a modual BUT what your realy adding is a way to warp out safer aint ya ?.
Yet at the same time messing up the skills of pilots that pre aline there ships over idiots ?.
Maybe I read it wrong but im all for getting away from killer blobs.
Does anyone, including the PVP'rs out there like the ability for people to engage while lined up and instantly warp away if something gets close to them? I don't know of anyone I've talked to who likes that, it's as liked as log off tactics I believe.
People want 1 simple thing as PVP'rs and non PVP'rs it seems and I may be wrong but this is what I interpret. They want people who want to fight to fight and people who want to run to run and not an absolute but a pretty close to ability to feel like if you want to run you're running. The stuff that seems to really get people ticked off is the fighters who can still run. Which is one area this addresses.
Here if you setup to fight you give up something of your ability to run away or to fight. If you setup to run chances are you are really setup to run and you'll probably do very well unless they are setup to catch like warp bubbles but a scout can go a million AU to help with that =P
This would get people to choose, am I looking for a fight only on my terms and if so how much of my ability to kill am I willing to give up for my ability to run away. That kind of risk/reward aspect is the foundation of the success of this game I honestly believe.
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Mercade
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Posted - 2005.05.31 19:30:00 -
[7]
Originally by: spiritfa11
wow what a great post. finally someone who actually thought about an issue and posted an alternative instead of a whine.
props to you mercade
Thank you. I really appreciate the positive feedback. Ultimately I don't want to be right. I just want to see this game which I plan on playing for the next.. oohhh forever. Grow into something that gives the players what they need, challenge, reward and excitement. That isn't always what we think we need or it doesn't always come in the form of what we say we want. It's up to the developers to decided that and us to decide whether we want to play.
So far I'm addicted, and have been for some time. Whining about game mechanics here is like being ****ed at the windmill in miniature golf.
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Mercade
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Posted - 2005.05.31 19:34:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Mercade on 31/05/2005 19:35:18
EDIT (refrence to those upset about warp mechanics not anyone above who's posted)
spamming post I know but to clarify the "miffed" at the windmill part some people may not get. How many of you actually pay attention to the fact that most windmills have a long 2-3 put shot around them, but most people spend 7 banging their head against the wall trying to make the hole in one.
There's alot to learn from that. Just because the ultimate reward is right before you, doesn't mean it's your only option, or necessarily the best strategy to take the direct route. If warping is like that shot, then surely we could take out the windmill and make it a 95% chance at a hole in one, but why play the game? If you are so darn conservative like you say you are complaining about the difficulty of the shot, go around it. I always did, and it won me many games of miniature golf to take a 1-2swing loss.
EDIT (My opinions, my expressions, my responsibility. Not that of any of my corpmates or allies)
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spiritfa11
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Posted - 2005.05.31 19:45:00 -
[9]
I agree, there are few things more annoying than being sniped by a tempest (with stabs) while they are aligned to their ss and then putting a point on them and watching them leave.
Now, your new warping ideas give rise to an interesting thought. I remember fighting Chon in 4c. They would be sniping in battleships constantly aligned to a ss, even with a covert ops ship flying up next to them they would enter warp before the covert ops ship could target them or before the fleet could exit warp and scramble them. That, coupled with sniping bookmarks made them extremely difficult to deal with basically invulnerable. This timer on the warp drive being active would perhaps enable a covert ops ship to decloak, and actually scramble the target before it can leave (radical idea i know). I definately like your idea and i hope its given a response from the devs and not forgotten on this forum.
It also makes sense from an in-game point of view. If youve ever read the scientific article on FTL travel it shows (iirc) how the ship creates an anti-friction field around itself and then enters warp. Your idea allows that it takes a battleship longer because it has to create a bigger field than a frigate.
Once again great idea and I hope you get something more than bumped off the first page.
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spiritfa11
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Posted - 2005.05.31 19:49:00 -
[10]
oh yeah and that module where you target the ship and see where they are warping... freaking cool. should be fairly skill intensive i would hope and be chance based...
would you be against that revealing someones safe spot? like you hacked the coordinates from their warp computer. and you could be waiting in their safespot the next time they tried something against you.
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Mercade
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Posted - 2005.05.31 19:56:00 -
[11]
Originally by: spiritfa11
I agree, there are few things more annoying than being sniped by a tempest (with stabs) while they are aligned to their ss and then putting a point on them and watching them leave.
Now, your new warping ideas give rise to an interesting thought. I remember fighting Chon in 4c. They would be sniping in battleships constantly aligned to a ss, even with a covert ops ship flying up next to them they would enter warp before the covert ops ship could target them or before the fleet could exit warp and scramble them. That, coupled with sniping bookmarks made them extremely difficult to deal with basically invulnerable. This timer on the warp drive being active would perhaps enable a covert ops ship to decloak, and actually scramble the target before it can leave (radical idea i know). I definately like your idea and i hope its given a response from the devs and not forgotten on this forum.
Thanks for the application of in game actual events. I wanted to put forward some more material to support application of the idea but I have and I will be honest and no blow smoke up anyone's rear, little fleet pvp engagement experience. I don't think that makes me any less capable of voicing an opinion then those who have yet to attempt PVP, especially considering I think it's a massively vital aspect to this game.
Your example is perfectly, it represents exactly how the current mechanics are exploited and how any change to the current mechanics won't assist a very large portion of the issue. What we want is people to have to choose whether they want their majority to be towards escape or fighting and their viability in the avenue they don't choose to take a decent hit in trade. Not get both, that is ultimately, as you've shown, near invulnerability.
That's not even getting into some of my other ideas. Like allow 3 covert ops pilots to use an active scanning module like a probe launcher but the 3 of them can in 1 scan locate and identify a ship triangulated between them in something around 60 seconds with a much greater then 14au scan range preferrably. This would allow those SS'rs to be found or be forced to equip accordingly to be truly safe.
Coordinated forward reconnoisance is a dead aspect to this game almost and for anyone who says that is too powerful, all you need to be 100% safe from detection is a standard cloaking device. You can hide 100 battleships with that, not from local, but that's another issue entirely.
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Mercade
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Posted - 2005.05.31 20:11:00 -
[12]
Originally by: spiritfa11
oh yeah and that module where you target the ship and see where they are warping... freaking cool. should be fairly skill intensive i would hope and be chance based...
would you be against that revealing someones safe spot? like you hacked the coordinates from their warp computer. and you could be waiting in their safespot the next time they tried something against you.
Well it would work somewhat in coordination with navigation computers. Say you have a tempest and a Blasterthron duel. The Blasterthron has given up some of his high slots for navs and a warp coordinate scanner (hacking device as you put it). The blasterthron is setup near the gate, tempest comes through. Not at range the tempest immediately begins it's warp. The blasterthron doesn't scramble him but locks him and begins his warp towards the gate as well while using his warp coordinate scanner.
The tempest pilot thinks he's now safe as he warps to a snipe position on that gate ready to eliminate the blasterthron with his T2 1400's and instalock ability. However as he comes out of warp 100km from the gate the blasterthron comes in at the same position - 2 nav computer accuracy bonuses so say only 10km from the tempest. Immediately scrambles him and comes into close orbit for a less gun intensive but now great kill.
the same could have been done by a frigate tackler. but here is where it balances out before anyone says overpowerful. Say the tempest has nav comps and gave up some of it's gunnery for that. It warps to 10k from the gate and because the warp positional scanner is an aggression it can jump out and get a lead on it's pursuer due to the aggression timer. The possibilities become much more interesting
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Mercade
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Posted - 2005.05.31 20:22:00 -
[13]
OMG! I just had an epiphane. If you could equip a fleet of blasterthrons with these modules the warp away gankers would be dead. Think of it this way. Your fleet is set to warp to it's opimal range. Their fleet is sniping. You engage them. If they warp away you can pursue and come in on them again at your optimal. So a fleet of 10 tempests set up to kill at 100km better kill everything before they warp away or any time they try and evade a close range counter strike team can come in on their heels again and again.
It would make a balanced and diverse fleet the MUST for combat and eliminate these massive sniping battles. The close range ships like the blastethron which people cry about having no place would be a vital part of fleet engagements as it is the counter assault battleship. Holding ground is now the key rather then running around like mad people SS jumping into snipe positions. Think fo the amazing tactics.. think of it!
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Vel Kyri
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Posted - 2005.05.31 20:37:00 -
[14]
Mercade.. I salute you.
That is one of the very best ideas i've read for a long long time.
i LOVE that idea.
Awesome, truly awesome.
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spiritfa11
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Posted - 2005.05.31 20:41:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Mercade
OMG! I just had an epiphane. If you could equip a fleet of blasterthrons with these modules the warp away gankers would be dead. Think of it this way. Your fleet is set to warp to it's opimal range. Their fleet is sniping. You engage them. If they warp away you can pursue and come in on them again at your optimal. So a fleet of 10 tempests set up to kill at 100km better kill everything before they warp away or any time they try and evade a close range counter strike team can come in on their heels again and again.
It would make a balanced and diverse fleet the MUST for combat and eliminate these massive sniping battles. The close range ships like the blastethron which people cry about having no place would be a vital part of fleet engagements as it is the counter assault battleship. Holding ground is now the key rather then running around like mad people SS jumping into snipe positions. Think fo the amazing tactics.. think of it!
aye, tactics 4tw! id like to see alot more tactics and alot less who has more battleships that can target faster, hit harder, from farther away fleets.
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Mercade
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Posted - 2005.05.31 20:53:00 -
[16]
You both just made my day. Of course I've gotten nothing done at work at all... period. But I really appreciate the responses. Personally right now I'm so just thrilled at the idea of fleet combat being more dynamic then range and withdraw and reassault that I can't think clearly. Second only to local chat that aspect of combat is one of my greatest frustrations as it weathers down tactics to a very simplistic blob mentality. Numbers should be a strength yes, but this hit and run sniping stuff eliminates so much of the beautiful intricacy of this game.
The ability to call a bluff basically, to have your fleet ready to take the advantage of the other fleet folds their position would make fleet battles enormously different. Think of it, the first fleet to warp out will most likely be broken down and hunted, much like the break of ranks and coordination in military formations.
And god forbid, the ability to survive in a position effectively would be as important as being able to deal out massive damage. You could have small calvary groups that would pursue those of theirs who try and escape and eliminate them. Covert ops would have time to position themselves as warp in points for close range assault ships to come in as second waves. I'm almost dizzy.
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DeODokktor
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Posted - 2005.05.31 21:29:00 -
[17]
What's the "Insta-Idea"..
Your post doesnt seem to have anything about "Instas" in it.. only Bookmarks where people pre-align for warpout.
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Mercade
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Posted - 2005.05.31 21:37:00 -
[18]
Originally by: DeODokktor
What's the "Insta-Idea"..
Your post doesnt seem to have anything about "Instas" in it.. only Bookmarks where people pre-align for warpout.
Heh. No prob let me show you. Instabookmarks are so you can land on top of a gate. Like Oveur said they have no rammifications against you and are almost a requirement to have. Well the nav mods and warp engine mods coupled with this different approach to warping would allow ships to be configured at cost to their combat ability to nearly insta-warp to a gate on autopilot but also allow multiple varieties inbetween including the ability to warp away faster which instas don't help with.
So in the end instas around gates could be dealt with however they wish to deal with them, or instas in general. If you can't produce an insta based on the location of your ship or a can then you're limited to pretty much permanent astro bodies. I think POS components should be an exclusion, treating them as a BM's able point. so people could use nav's on haulers to get in an dout of belts to POS sotrage arrays etc.
So the short answer is you give up the ability to instantly warp to gates with bookmarks in exchange for ht eabiity to use these mods to get away from things faster and closer in the end. Did that help any in clarification?
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DeODokktor
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Posted - 2005.05.31 22:04:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Mercade
Did that help any in clarification?
Aye..
Short and Simple..
I sent in a letter to No9 telling them they should mod sex ed in britania .. Using a Ikea leaflet as a model
Dowel A goes into Dowl Hole B, a little glue, and you have created something.
Simple ..
high slot modules in exchange for better warping would work ..
Warping away faster tho.. ccp doesnt wanna do that.. Reading his post it looks like he wants "possible" survival instead of "possible" death..
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Mercade
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Posted - 2005.05.31 23:33:00 -
[20]
Well not quite that simple. That's missing the whole point of untethering normal drive and warp drives.
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Hermia
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Posted - 2005.06.01 01:50:00 -
[21]
Lov your idea Mercade.
More control over the way your ship warps would be great 
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spiritfa11
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Posted - 2005.06.01 13:13:00 -
[22]
friendly bump =)
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MikeDK
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Posted - 2005.06.01 15:37:00 -
[23]
Skill or module based instas doesn't solve much I think. It just postpones the problem until everyone owns the module or has the skill at level 5, at which point we'll be right back where we are today.
We have to find a way to introduce an element of chance to those users who use insta bm's to travel through gates, while at the same time not inconveniencing too many users who are not part of Oveurs problem. I believe system security level is a useful parameter and it might all by itself solve the problem. You might simply say that the lower the system security is, the less accurate bookmarks become. Accurate meaning "risk of emerging +/- 15 km from the bm target increases".
In 1.0, there is no deviation from the bm target. In 0.5, there is a 50% deviation risk. In 0.0, there is a 100% deviation risk. Spice up with a skill to reduce that risk (5% per level) and the problem would appear to be solved.
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Mercade
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Posted - 2005.06.01 15:38:00 -
[24]
Spiritfa11 I'm gonna try and summarize this whole idea, rebuild it more fluidly and post it in the commments on the blog. I know The devs read that, but I think since this got moved here it may not be seen, or so it feels. Looking at the number of replies proportionate to the other threads on the same topic it seems this gets less attention. Maybe it gets the same, or the devs look here. It'd be nice to know, perhaps -Eris D can post here and let me know if this is the appropriate forum for getting ideas back to them.
Oveur called out for anyone who thinks they have the answer to shout like they got a pair and I'm trying. Maybe I can post this on the comments of the blog with my high speed connection here at home after work where it was timing out on dialup at work.
Either way put up any points we created in our discussion you would like to make sure are hashed out or included. I like your input and your early support has kept me in on this thread where normally the responses much of the community offers get frustrating to the point I can't handle reading my own thread replies =P Thankfully everyone who seems to read it this time are the kewl people hehe.
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zaqq
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Posted - 2005.06.01 15:40:00 -
[25]
A very interesting idea. :)
I'm guessing the "mouths" of the forums are hoping this post will simply go away quietly.
Sacrficing their damage mods, OMG unheard of 
Nice work Mercade.
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Mercade
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Posted - 2005.06.01 15:46:00 -
[26]
I disagree and I'd like to say you should read his blog again and pay attention to the points he's pushing for. Not chastising you just pointing out he stated the following.
He wants something that is nearly safe when sacrifice is made to be safe. Skills are NOT the solution because all that does is put a greater initial skill burdon on new characters and raise another must have bar. Bookmarks are a dead commodity route to take as the current method illustrates. That leaves modules and a restructure of travel entirely. Deductive reasoning.
With that in mind being able to address it specifically to it's nature is the key. The developers need more of an ability to affect how certain ships warp. By untethering normal drives and warp drives as being speed engaged you can then make those adjustments. Just like it took removing absolutism from ECM and making it bonusable in ships allowed frigates to become feasible but not overly powering EW platforms etc.
The biggest thing is there needs to be a system where people CAN be almost safe if they have the risked equipment and the adaptation to their ship that gives up something else. Most people would say combat or other security based features. If you can fight and run you are too powerful. So with that in mind you ahve to hit highs or low slots. Problem is if you hit one or the other you tip ships. and specific ships and races become way too overly powerful. I think that the nav computers for the high which allows you to warp in closer per unit to your target and the warp drive boosters which allow you to get into warp quicker which go in the low slots allows a more dependable solution in all aspects of travel. Instas only assist with the arrival, many people die in ships like an industrial trying to get into warp.
THer eis already a solution that is being worked on very hard to make it feasible to stop any ship. Once warp bubbles are fully resolved you'll be able to stop people quite effectively in low security. But this fix will affect all areas of travel well and bring a better system to the board. Also with the addition of the timed delay to warp and the invent of the warp coordinate scanning module you can eliminate the static sniping SS jumping combat system currently overwhelming. That right there is worth it I feel. And I don't know many PVP'rs who like a fight and not just a gank who wouldn't agree.
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Oveur
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Posted - 2005.06.01 21:49:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Mercade
I disagree and I'd like to say you should read his blog again and pay attention to the points he's pushing for. Not chastising you just pointing out he stated the following.
He wants something that is nearly safe when sacrifice is made to be safe. Skills are NOT the solution because all that does is put a greater initial skill burdon on new characters and raise another must have bar. Bookmarks are a dead commodity route to take as the current method illustrates. That leaves modules and a restructure of travel entirely. Deductive reasoning.
With that in mind being able to address it specifically to it's nature is the key. The developers need more of an ability to affect how certain ships warp. By untethering normal drives and warp drives as being speed engaged you can then make those adjustments. Just like it took removing absolutism from ECM and making it bonusable in ships allowed frigates to become feasible but not overly powering EW platforms etc.
The biggest thing is there needs to be a system where people CAN be almost safe if they have the risked equipment and the adaptation to their ship that gives up something else. Most people would say combat or other security based features. If you can fight and run you are too powerful. So with that in mind you ahve to hit highs or low slots. Problem is if you hit one or the other you tip ships. and specific ships and races become way too overly powerful. I think that the nav computers for the high which allows you to warp in closer per unit to your target and the warp drive boosters which allow you to get into warp quicker which go in the low slots allows a more dependable solution in all aspects of travel. Instas only assist with the arrival, many people die in ships like an industrial trying to get into warp.
THer eis already a solution that is being worked on very hard to make it feasible to stop any ship. Once warp bubbles are fully resolved you'll be able to stop people quite effectively in low security. But this fix will affect all areas of travel well and bring a better system to the board. Also with the addition of the timed delay to warp and the invent of the warp coordinate scanning module you can eliminate the static sniping SS jumping combat system currently overwhelming. That right there is worth it I feel. And I don't know many PVP'rs who like a fight and not just a gank who wouldn't agree.
You, Mercade, are a sight for sore eyes
Just to take this a bit further, think of adding longer "warp to" distances, effectively increasing the playing field around all objects in addition to gang leaders suitably equipped having the ability to select a warp destination for his gang members anywhere within 250km's radius of his sphere of influence.
It promotes long range combat as well as short ranged combat, increased accuracy of warping means you land dead-on for those 7.5km scramblers, different "time to warp" means he might be fast enough to esacape, but probably not. All at a cost (modules) to achieve the benefits but not something as simple (and boring) as copying a bookmark.
Your suggestion has merits and is exactly the kind of input I was hoping for. You replaced the functionality while at the same time enabled new gameplay (At least in theory). I think it might be worth a prototype to evalute it!
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I say hey sky, s'other say I won say, I pray to J I get the same ol' same ol. |
zaqq
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Posted - 2005.06.01 23:26:00 -
[28]
WOOT, now we getting somewhere, awesome 
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Drizit
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Posted - 2005.06.02 01:48:00 -
[29]
So if warp drive charging time was based on mass, how would this help a large ship like an Indy or a Barge? They have scant hit point protection as it is but adding hull mods to reduce weight and increase speed on the ship also results in some severe cargo space loss and hit point cost as well.
As standard, they are big and cumbersome so your formula would mean they would take as long as a cruiser to warp. While a cruiser could take the punishment for a short time, an Indy would be torn apart. It means that an Indy would need to have some radical changes in strength to weather it out until the warp drive kicks in.
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Mercade
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Posted - 2005.06.02 02:13:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Mercade on 02/06/2005 02:20:25
Oveur,
I'd like to thank you for those words. I've tried to draw up ideas in the past and they seem to have slipped through the cr-ac-ks (evidently that is a bad word). I know you guys are extremely busy and the amount of time you spend on the forums and the tangible presence that is goes a long way I know for making me feel very confident in CCP.
I'm going to try and coalesce what is in this thread, take additional ideas, refine and provide as much assistance as possible regarding as many aspects as I and anyone else who wants to help can. Anything that would allow a greater flexibility for player ingenuity in tactics in this game will be a feature well worth implementation.
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Loth Kothl
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Posted - 2005.06.02 06:32:00 -
[31]
I must say, that I really love these ideas. Sounds like you've got something there. I hope CCP looks into this solution... *fingers crossed*
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Zernin
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Posted - 2005.06.02 08:44:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Drizit
So if warp drive charging time was based on mass, how would this help a large ship like an Indy or a Barge? They have scant hit point protection as it is but adding hull mods to reduce weight and increase speed on the ship also results in some severe cargo space loss and hit point cost as well.
The trick here is the industrial ship could easily equip warp enhancing mods (which would be all the more viable on the blockade runner indys) and have a good chance of outrunning anything trying to chase it. It would not only warp faster then its enemies, but it would emerge from warp closer to the gates. Yes, you would be sacrificing some cargo space, but I believe many would agree that should be a necessary sacrifice for greater security. More importantly, I don't see a reason for many of these warp specific mods to carry a direct cargo reduction, so you would only be sacrificing your expander slots for added security and speed rather then taking a direct negative hit to your cargo space.
In fact, we could take this a step further and give pilots a purpose to fly indys other than the It5. Indys with smaller carrying capacities would have naturally faster warp times, or indy skill bonuses for certain races could even give direct bonuses to warp entry speed.
Barges on the other hand aren't meant for moving around a whole lot. They are meant to be floating targets that don't move between systems too well. This probably won't help barges, but I don't see barges as needing a whole lot of help.
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Scorpyn
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Posted - 2005.06.02 09:23:00 -
[33]
I had a similar idea : Making a delay to warping after jumping if using an insta.
Your idea however is probably a lot easier to implement properly and it seems to be solving some other problems at the same time.
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Nemiah
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Posted - 2005.06.02 10:44:00 -
[34]
Mercade's ideea is very good..sounds very real life, and if it gets implemented it will be a success from my point of wiew.
On the other hand, maybe CCP should look-in on some Sci-Fi series (like Battlestar Galactica) for some awsome FTL ideeas.
The upcoming jump-drive is a good ideea...too bad it will be limited to a very small category of ships.
In my opinion they should release a set of modules ( low, mid and high slots) that in cooperation would make ships able to jump, and make the modules ship-specialised, each set for a diferent class of ship.
Also to make-it impossible to have weapons on a jump-enabled ship (we do not want jump-sniping-tempests...no?? )
I think that will encourage a large number of Empire-only players to attempt 0.0 space :D
The warp-tracking sugested before is also a good and realistic ideea (engine ion traces ??) and would make the game a lot more intresting...like tracking empire-camping n00bs :D
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Chidori kun
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Posted - 2005.06.02 11:04:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Chidori kun on 02/06/2005 11:10:55
Edited by: Chidori kun on 02/06/2005 11:05:33
Mercade really like your idea's this week started my first war (and was not happy about it) in the Empire still even when i'm outnumbered outgunned i'll try to fight ;) anyway the idea's posted would have been a great help if it was working... that said...
IBM may go away i really do not care if they did.. but in return there must be some other way to travel faster with indy's or other slow ships i have seen great idea's about that and yours but few of them i'm missing or did not find them in the threads about IBM
Great idea's are beside yours:
1. Shorten the warpout distance, be it with skills or just implimenting them.
2. take away IBM to large collidable objects (Stations, Gates etc..) within a range of 15 km or more.
now 3 of my:
1. Give indy's MWD without fitting all kind of modules to let it work.
2. Give the autopilot controle over the Afterburner and MWD
this gives also a shorter travel time.
3. Give more controle to warp to something in the system
now you can only warp to a object be it a planet, sun, station or gate. if you can open the map and warp to empty point in space you do not need IBM for safespots.
And give some way of relaying the coordinates to a friend or a corpmember with out the use of gang's.
I have kept it general and put it in this thread because here there is nobody yanking your chain about IBM's
sorry about my bad english
my 2 isk
Chidori
"Are you Living in the real world?" |
Simon Illian
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Posted - 2005.06.02 11:22:00 -
[36]
good idear, really what i was expecting for the things like that :
=> Travel must be longer, but not so longer, reduce the time by modules is good, you must sacrifie cargo space for an indys, DPS for fight ship .... but in exchange you get a fast travel
=> I thinks devs doesn't want insta, they want to be able to implement COSMOS, and if you can travel so fast and so easy, cosmos can't exist, but the other side is with hard travel you will destroy a lot of things that have been build (i think about POS and market from 0.0 to empire). With you'r solution we have the both part happy (i can travel fast wit han indy fitted just for that .... but i've little cargo space in exchange, and my cover loose some power to be able to travel fast.
IBM is boring (i love them, i use them all the days ... it's a facility) when you think just away of yourself, you loose a part of the game.
i will make a +1 for you'r idea.
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Laendra
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Posted - 2005.06.02 13:17:00 -
[37]
A well thought out suggestion...
I feel, however, that you're just duplicating the problems with instas...all the people that you WANT to catch (i.e. loaded with valuable cargo) are going to be rigged for quick warp/accurate warp in anyway, so this very well could be an exercise in futility.
Having said that, however, perhaps we should take this idea a little further...once you have engaged your warp engines, your offensive modules and large energy consuming ones (such as microwarp, afterburner, etc.) should shutdown, as theoretically, establishing the warp field around your ship and powering up your warp drive should consume a very large percentage of your resources.
Also, having said that, I have always liked the idea of customizing the ship even further...split the Warp Drive, Propulsion System, Power Core and Computer Core from the base components of the ship (with a default generic ones coming with the ship), and make them replaceable. Want a Warp Drive that gets to warp quickly, or travels faster in warp, or consumes less cap, or is better shielded against jamming, or any combination of the above? Pay for an upgrade, but, it consumes differing amounts of PG/CPU and affects cap consumption. Want a larger Power Core, or one that is better shielded against power draining, or both? Pay for an upgrade, but it consumes more CPU. Want a larger Computer Core? Pay for an upgrade, but it consumes more PG. Want to fly faster? Pay for an upgrade to your propulsion system, but it consumes more PG. Adds an enormous amount of customization, which is a good thing, no?
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spiritfa11
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Posted - 2005.06.02 15:46:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Laendra
A well thought out suggestion...
I feel, however, that you're just duplicating the problems with instas...all the people that you WANT to catch (i.e. loaded with valuable cargo) are going to be rigged for quick warp/accurate warp in anyway, so this very well could be an exercise in futility.
Having said that, however, perhaps we should take this idea a little further...once you have engaged your warp engines, your offensive modules and large energy consuming ones (such as microwarp, afterburner, etc.) should shutdown, as theoretically, establishing the warp field around your ship and powering up your warp drive should consume a very large percentage of your resources.
Also, having said that, I have always liked the idea of customizing the ship even further...split the Warp Drive, Propulsion System, Power Core and Computer Core from the base components of the ship (with a default generic ones coming with the ship), and make them replaceable. Want a Warp Drive that gets to warp quickly, or travels faster in warp, or consumes less cap, or is better shielded against jamming, or any combination of the above? Pay for an upgrade, but, it consumes differing amounts of PG/CPU and affects cap consumption. Want a larger Power Core, or one that is better shielded against power draining, or both? Pay for an upgrade, but it consumes more CPU. Want a larger Computer Core? Pay for an upgrade, but it consumes more PG. Want to fly faster? Pay for an upgrade to your propulsion system, but it consumes more PG. Adds an enormous amount of customization, which is a good thing, no?
Thats a great idea, i really like the customization thing. I remember when i first started playing eve, the universe seemed so big, there were so many ships, so many modules, i thought wow theres so much stuff you can do, how can i ever learn what all these modules do and the best way to use them all? that feeling is long since gone, but with this ship system customizations maybe you can bring a little more of that 'wow this game is so huge' factor that i think we all miss.
Unfortunately it doesnt really seem Eve has ever catered to customization over cookie-cutter as far as ship setups. However I think you should keep this idea going and see what Oveur says.
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Vel Kyri
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Posted - 2005.06.02 17:02:00 -
[39]
honestly thats the direction i think we are headed / probably for tech3 stuff.
already for tech 2 we are getting various components we need to include, and there are vaious versions of those component, usually on racial lines.
tech 3, i guess, will be more variants of those components, and depending on how many you put in your ship it will modify the stats.
at least, thats what i hope. . Advantage would be able to get better stats *speed, warp, cpu of whatever* but the disadvantage is it wouldnt be able to be changed...
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Maxine Stirner
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Posted - 2005.06.02 17:27:00 -
[40]
We still have a problem of ships not being able to warp out from gatecloak without being blown up in one or two volleys. I think the main trouble of this is that people are always within the optimal (or falloff) of the sphere of turrets.
Personally, I think general EW and warp disruptors should have much greater range than turrets. This will encourage people who intend to fly through hostile territory to have nimble, and fast ships rather than just heavier hulls and bookmarks. The smaller ships would be appropriate for smaller or solo groups slipping through the *****s, while larger vessels would be more specialized support for larger operations in PvP.
I can't imagine that people were once annoyed when unfriendlies camped out within touching distance of gates. In those cases, system spawn in points should have been adjusted to a radius greater than 20km from the gate rather than just sentries.
New field commander abilities as suggested by Oveur are interesting, but I don't quite understand how they relate to travel issues.
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Captin Biltmore
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Posted - 2005.06.02 18:51:00 -
[41]
Honestly, this is a very bad idea. You have obviously never tried to fight some of the corps in game who are known to load up with WCS's. Imagine trying to fight someone with this mod and a load of WCS's. They'd be uncatchable.
Actually, put this into game....I'll go to yulai with one of these and keep warping away from concorde instantly and pwning indys once my agro goes away.
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spiritfa11
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Posted - 2005.06.02 20:51:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Captin Biltmore
Honestly, this is a very bad idea. You have obviously never tried to fight some of the corps in game who are known to load up with WCS's. Imagine trying to fight someone with this mod and a load of WCS's. They'd be uncatchable.
Actually, put this into game....I'll go to yulai with one of these and keep warping away from concorde instantly and pwning indys once my agro goes away.
The whole point of this idea is supposed to be that you cannot warp instantly... Secondly, whats to stop you from loading up with stabs right now, making some bookmarks and going to yulai to pop some haulers. Mercade's idea will only slow you down because no matter how your ship is moving or aligned it takes you a certain amount of time to enter warp, and you must sacrifice offensive ability to enter warp any faster... As it stands at the moment you enter warp if you are aligned and at full speed the second you hit warp. So you would have a better chance of popping haulers in yulai right now than with Mercade's idea implemented. Please read more carefully.
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Noriath
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Posted - 2005.06.03 05:22:00 -
[43]
Copied from the giant insta-thread in General since it was pointed out that any ideas are collected here.
Originally by: Noriath
A typical formula in other games is that you can travel anywhere slowly for free, and you can also fast-travel if you spend money.
Maybe there could be acceleration gate-hubs next to the jumpgates. Whenever you leave a jumpgate you would pop out over one of those, and you would have the option of paying a fee that's derived from size of your ship and value of your cargo to use the acceleration hub, which would then activate and warp you to 1km of a gate you choose from a list in the hub.
It would have a dropdown menue:
Use hub to:
Stargate blabla (Price)
Stargate dumdidum (Price)
You could instruct your autopilot to always use the hub and pay the fees and travel extremly fast (You autopilot would give you the total price of travel to your destination), or you could travel slowly - but for free.
This would combine a moneysink with fast a fast travel option. Also this would make hauling goods for other players into a better buisiness, because if someone doesn't want to spend an hour hauling some very expensive cargo slowly so they don't get slapped with extreme acceleration-hub fees for expensive cargo it might acctually be cheaper to just take the hubs with a shuttle (where the fee would be like 10 isk) and hire someone to slowly ship the goods to where you want them.
Fast travel at the expense of money is a proven system for almost every MMORPG out there.
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Grismar
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Posted - 2005.06.03 06:08:00 -
[44]
Since we're collecting options here, I'd also like to mention the system A Tale in the Desert uses. Like EVE allowing skillpoints to accumulate even when you are offline, ATITD allows you to "use" the time you spend offline to perform simple tasks, like picking grass (which is very boring) at a fixed rate. But one of the options is to spend offline time accumulating "travel time".
Whenever a player wants to use the travel system, he can pay either with money or with offline time. The amount of time you pay is equal to the amount of time it would take you to travel there walking.
A major advantage of such a system is that it is not limited to wealthy (and experienced) players. New players can access it too. You could even link the amount of "Interbus Credits" that accumulate per time-unit to a special skill, requiring a player to train it to level 5 to get everything out of it, but limiting the ability for people not dedicated to travel.
I would however, like to point out one problem with any system that results in people having different traveltimes. Especially if you implement instant travel, war situations will become very different. Corps will be able to log characters that have accumulated a lot of travel time and they will be able to instantly arrive in the theatre of operations.
Another problem with such a solution would be the perfect safety of it. In fact, it would be worse than the invulnerability issues we're having now, as pointed out by Oveur. You could prevent this in part by limiting instant travel to systems that you've (recently?) visited.
Just a thought, not really gets my vote, but it works very well for a game like ATITD.
Rats - Corp/Implants - Agents |
Chidori kun
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Posted - 2005.06.03 13:23:00 -
[45]
friendly bump 
"Are you Living in the real world?" |
Nomen Nescio
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Posted - 2005.06.03 15:00:00 -
[46]
Edited by: Nomen Nescio on 03/06/2005 15:00:37
Initial idea is very good, I would really love to see very agile ships which spend a lot of time to start warping.
I would add "shutdown of all ACTIVE mods |
Yith Solarius
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Posted - 2005.06.03 20:48:00 -
[47]
This is ever so slighty off topic but here goes - going back to Mercade's suggestion of 'warp hackers' another addition to the eve that I would love to see is a sensor view (in much the same sense as Homeworld 2) tie this view into you ship sensor data an |
elFarto
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Posted - 2005.06.03 22:04:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Yith Solarius
This is ever so slighty off topic but here goes - going back to Me |
ArcticFox
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Posted - 2005.06.03 22:12:00 -
[49]
I love the idea Mercade. Don't have anything to add right now but I just thought I'd throw in my support. It's startlingly balanced all around and is a great step towards more tactical battles (though I have to say, a bit off topic, that the biggest thing |
MIstress Saki
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Posted - 2005.06.03 23:25:00 -
[50]
Hi
The idea is very good, esp. the "warp out time" and the possibility to disrupt it.
You would also add an other variable to balanced out the ship classes. The current problem that BS, which are suppose to be slow, with BM are almost as fast as |
Mercade
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Posted - 2005.06.04 03:46:00 -
[51]
Terribly busy right now to finish the summary and begin a well displayed summary of all the aspects of this topic. But I'm never too busy to come on and say thank you!
All the support goes very far. Let's keep the good ideas rolling on. I'd like to foc |
peepee man
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Posted - 2005.06.04 04:29:00 -
[52]
Edited by: peepee man on 04/06/2005 05:55:44
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peepee man
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Posted - 2005.06.04 04:31:00 -
[53]
Edited by: peepee man on 04/06/2005 04:31:31
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Neko Makai
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Posted - 2005.06.04 05:32:00 -
[54]
Edited by: Neko Makai on 04/06/2005 05:55:16
i have a some ways to get rid of instas without sacrificing travel speed.
1. Change the way overdrive injectors work or make a similar INDY module. Instead o |
Alban Monasu
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Posted - 2005.06.06 12:58:00 -
[55]
Oh a good suggestion AND a positive dev answer. Now that is like christmas in june. More options on the battlefield in terms of navigation sounds good. And if we get rid of insta bms but gain the same functionality with modules, Im all up for it. Where do |
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