EVE Search - Passive shield tank V Active shield tank against a Raven in PvP

All Channels

Ships and Modules

Passive shield tank V Active shield tank against a Raven in PvP

» Click here to find additional results for this topic using Google

Monitor this thread via RSS [?]

Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 :: one page
Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
Nomen Nescio	Posted - 2005.06.02 20:55:00 - [31] Originally by: Imhotep Khem You have to BREAK the tank of the Raven. No easy task. 4 large noses will break raven tank like a ocean breaks sand castle on a beach
Nomen Nescio	Posted - 2005.06.02 20:58:00 - [32] Originally by: Pottsey ôim sorry i must have missed something, but what exact setup did the passive Domi had with active hards on?ö 7 power relays T1, 3 large T2 shield extenders, 1 Em, 1 Thermal active hardeners. Weapons or Nos + Cap Neutralizes What about T2 shield power relays? I thought you used them, are they in the game? Because I saw their stats pretty long time ago, but yesterday on a SISI I didnt find them. (well market lags in SIS like hell). If they are in, r they expensive and do they get a lot of advantage over T1?
Pottsey	Posted - 2005.06.02 21:07:00 - [33] Edited by: Pottsey on 02/06/2005 21:38:51 ôWhat about T2 shield power relays? I thought you used them, are they in the game? Because I saw their stats pretty long time ago, but yesterday on a SISI I didnt find them. (well market lags in SIS like hell). If they are in, r they expensive and do they get a lot of advantage over T1?ö If my maths are right I would be invincible 1v1 against a Raven even a gank setup if I had a full load out of T2 relays, think solo lvl 4 mission point blank among the rats. Relays are not for sale and oddly they get a massive advantage over T1 not just a bigger shield recharge boost but also a 2nd bonus of 10% more powergrid per module. Something tells me they will get nerfed before we can buy them. ôIs the setup entirely devoted to tanking, though? No webs, warp scramblers, etc?ö My version is a full tank but it can be modified to fit webs and warp scramblers. Edit: trying a few webs and scrambler setups now. will edit them into this post soon. Update: The hitpoint based ship with a Webber and warp scrambler has 13543 hitpoints 765 recharge Regen 44.2 regen. Or 9625 hitpoints 298 recharge 80 Regen 1 hardner, 7 shield relays, 337 free CPU. ( no weapons and 2 empty mid slots for EW) 6045 free powergrid. 3rd option 10511 hitpoints 390 recharge 67.3 Regen 1 hardner, 5 shield relays, 2 PDS T2 modules, 518 free CPU. ( no weapons and 2 empty mid slots for EW) 11698 free powergrid. I believe the named shield relays use up 0 CPU If you need more CPU are dirt cheap. _________________________________________________ Gallente defensive innovation comes from unexpected source.
Alexander Reikson	Posted - 2005.06.02 21:15:00 - [34] This is arcane magic. I fear to even read all of it. ;)
Nomen Nescio	Posted - 2005.06.02 21:16:00 - [35] You probably should stop talking about your setups then and delete all your posts, so no1 will suspect that T2 relays are uber and we will have some time to enjoy them before the nerf comes.:) Extremely good work Pottsey. PS Those who say "you used all slots for tank", oh come on, that friking point of all the damn testing is to show that PASSIVE full tank is better then ACTIVE full tank. no1 said this is "domi of doom best in everyhing"
David Goodwill	Posted - 2005.06.03 11:14:00 - [36] Pottsey you are my hero. I have actually bought a Domi to try out this stuff! ----------------------------- Mating call of a pirate... "rarrggghhh, omg r0x0r, ph34r meeeee" Average age: 12..
Papermate	Posted - 2005.06.03 11:43:00 - [37] Why do u need a webber one the domi? More likely u need a AB or mwd to get into nos range. Drones dont need a webber, and if u want guns, fit dual 250's/350's(if u cant afford to fit mwd/web) "Master of Papercuts"
Pottsey	Posted - 2005.06.03 11:50:00 - [38] Edited by: Pottsey on 03/06/2005 12:09:25 ôWhy do u need a webber one the domi? More likely u need a AB or mwd to get into nos range. Drones dont need a webber, and if u want guns, fit dual 250's/350's(if u cant afford to fit mwd/web)ö Not sure. Someone was complaining that I might be able to out tank the Raven but not kill it without webber and scrambler as it would just warp away so I made a setup with both on. I guess you could take a MWD and warp scrambler instead. The hitpoint ship should have enough cap to run the MWD. I will see if I can fit and run one and edit the results into this post. Anyone else got anything they want me to try? Update: 1 solution to the CPU problems might be an using those cheap hardwire implants like the KUA1000 or KUA 2000. As for the MWD yes itÆs fit's but even with PDS modules cap would run out. But then again I assuming anyone doing this would use Nos and have Navigation skills past lvl 2 to reduce cap usage. _________________________________________________ Gallente defensive innovation comes from unexpected source.
Ki Chung	Posted - 2005.06.03 12:24:00 - [39] In terms of the theoretical 1 vs 1 argument, was the Raven using its 6 heavy drones (and whatever was in the other two highslots)?
Thyro	Posted - 2005.06.03 12:32:00 - [40] good topic about tanks, but... Did you know that only less than 10% of the torps/cruises launched from a Raven would eventually hit the target? (And I'm not talking pos-patch "missile nerf". No! this can occur today!) If you have a good setup to counter measure missiles (not even is necessary to tank your BS at all) So the fact is even a gankgeddon wins a tanked raven. It's just a matter of right setup, attention, preciseness and above all how the raven pilot engages in pvp. If the raven pilot launches like the 90% of the raven players do. Then for sure that would lose his raven independent of how good the shields are. Now if the raven pilot has a good launching sequence then will be hard to counter act and eventually defeat the raven. So in effect if the raven pilot doesn't go against an tank BS then might have some chance of success. So from what I read so far, some good points were made. However, even without a tank you can easily defeat or make a raven pilot wish to run away from the place and fast. All ends up how you/he engage in pvp. But for sure after that, tank might play an important part if the pvp engagement fails.
Pottsey	Posted - 2005.06.03 12:41:00 - [41] ôIn terms of the theoretical 1 vs 1 argument, was the Raven using its 6 heavy drones (and whatever was in the other two highslots)?ö I would assume a Dominx would out drone the Raven. IE its drones kill the Raven drones. The Dominx loserÆs a few then launchÆs more and focus on the Raven. Assuming the Raven sent his drones to the Dominx then smart bombs on the Raven wouldnÆt work. If the drones donÆt go towards the Dominx then they are not shooting so it doesnÆt matter. Yes the Raven could use the other two high slots but assuming it had the cap to after the Domi used Nos. But thatÆs assuming the Domi got into range with MWD/AB. What do Ravens normally take in the 2 highs lots? To many assumptions. _________________________________________________ Gallente defensive innovation comes from unexpected source.
LUKEC	Posted - 2005.06.03 12:47:00 - [42] ravens usually have 1 heavy nosf and empty slot or small gun. That is if they have 1 bcu. Else they have 2 nosfs if 5pduII. Gankaraven with xl booster has 2x empty hislots, as he does not have cpu for nothing really.(well if it is ecm raven with mwd, then it has no pg) This was with standard stuff(ok cheap named nosf maybe, don't remember).
XpoHoc	Posted - 2005.06.03 12:56:00 - [43] Pottsey, I find your work very interesting. I do not believe that passive tanking is good for PvP, but I would like make sure about it. Sorry but your tests are just a few numbers, that's not PvP. If you have some spare time I would like to do some tests with you on test server, real battles. PvP has too many variable to cover to do it all on paper, having enough grid to use good guns, doesn't mean you can deal any damage with a ship ect. Just drop me a mail (test or tq server) on where you will have some time, if you like.
Thyro	Posted - 2005.06.03 13:13:00 - [44] Originally by: Pottsey ôIn terms of the theoretical 1 vs 1 argument, was the Raven using its 6 heavy drones (and whatever was in the other two highslots)?ö I would assume a Dominx would out drone the Raven. IE its drones kill the Raven drones. The Dominx loserÆs a few then launchÆs more and focus on the Raven. Assuming the Raven sent his drones to the Dominx then smart bombs on the Raven wouldnÆt work. If the drones donÆt go towards the Dominx then they are not shooting so it doesnÆt matter. Yes the Raven could use the other two high slots but assuming it had the cap to after the Domi used Nos. But thatÆs assuming the Domi got into range with MWD/AB. What do Ravens normally take in the 2 highs lots? To many assumptions. Drones are easily dealt destroyed by FOFs or even with a SB The 2 high slots usually have these 2 types: 2x Named Nosferatuns (large/Medium) or 1x Named Nos (large) + 1x Smartbomb If a raven gets into NOS range then its a killer and might survive otherwise has a very reduced chance of survival. Jst avoid to rely your survival on drones. Because they only work "better" if the targeted ship doesn't have launchers or smartbomb. 2 cruise FOFs and a heavy drone is gone 2 blasts of large smart bomb and the heavy drone is gone.
Pottsey	Posted - 2005.06.03 13:31:00 - [45] ôIf you have some spare time I would like to do some tests with you on test server, real battles.ö I am up for that if anyone else wants to do the same add me to your friends list and look me up when I am online. But I do have a few ground rules. Stop firing at 50% amour or even after the shields drop, replacing ships is a pain on the test server and someone else might want to have a go at beating me or test. Also itÆs an old build I only started training for combat 3 months ago which is about how long old the test server build is. I am around Ouelletta sector on the test server. ôDrones are easily dealt destroyed by FOFs or even with a SBö I agree but what I meant the Dominix drones should last long enough to kill all the Ravens drones. _________________________________________________ Gallente defensive innovation comes from unexpected source.
Nekhad Jormuzzar	Posted - 2005.06.03 13:55:00 - [46] Edited by: Nekhad Jormuzzar on 03/06/2005 13:59:49 IMHO shield power relay IIs should be that good. For two reasons: active tanking will enjoy cap relay IIs as well and passive tanking takes up more slots and has a peak recharge in contrast with a constant recharge, which leaves it vulnerable to burst damage as you already witnessed. <edit> By the way, my (very much limited) experience in 1v1 agaisnt ravens on a domi indicates the active tank would be performing better with a couple multispecs.
Sobeseki Pawi	Posted - 2005.06.03 13:56:00 - [47] * ponders about passive tanking a Typhoon * ~Sobe Captain Cutie, Razor's Kiss What is your Radical Dream?
XpoHoc	Posted - 2005.06.03 14:03:00 - [48] Originally by: Pottsey ôIf you have some spare time I would like to do some tests with you on test server, real battles.ö I am up for that if anyone else wants to do the same add me to your friends list and look me up when I am online. But I do have a few ground rules. Stop firing at 50% amour or even after the shields drop, replacing ships is a pain on the test server and someone else might want to have a go at beating me or test. Also itÆs an old build I only started training for combat 3 months ago which is about how long old the test server build is. I am around Ouelletta sector on the test server. Go to PF-346. Join Fight Club Co., there you have anything for free. We will adjust our test on your skills, that's no problem. I don't want to see how good you are at PvP, I want to see how good passive tanking is at it.
Pottsey	Posted - 2005.06.03 14:12:00 - [49] As soon as the test server is back up I will head to Fight Club. I wonder how many people will turn up to shoot at me.? _________________________________________________ Gallente defensive innovation comes from unexpected source.
Magunus	Posted - 2005.06.03 14:16:00 - [50] Originally by: Pottsey As soon as the test server is back up I will head to Fight Club. I wonder how many people will turn up to shoot at me.? I'm already there. :D Come and get some. :P --- In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -- Douglas Adams, 'The Restaurant at the End of the Universe'
XpoHoc	Posted - 2005.06.03 14:16:00 - [51] Originally by: Pottsey As soon as the test server is back up I will head to Fight Club. I wonder how many people will turn up to shoot at me.? Fighting on Sisi server is consentual only, everyone attacking you without asking will get banned, if you petition him. There is a FFA beacon for pure fighting without agreement, everywhere else nobody will touch you.
Inspiration	Posted - 2005.06.03 15:29:00 - [52] Edited by: Inspiration on 03/06/2005 15:33:19 Originally by: Pottsey I was surprised at how much a difference losing 12.5% resistance makes. If 12.5% has that big an impact I think I made a mistake overlooking T2 active hardeners at 3% more or even the named hardeners. You are not the only one in EVE, the effect of hardeners are hugely underestimated IMHO. Let me clarify with an easy EM damage example as it is the most easy one show the effect: Assume we hot a hypothetical weapon doing 100 HP EM type damage. It will do the following damage on different ammounts of shield EM resistance. 0% = 100 HP damage 50% = 50 HP damage, 50% improvement over 00% resistance 55% = 45 HP damage, 10% improvement over 50% resistance 60% = 40 HP damage, 11% improvement over 55% resistance 65% = 35 HP damage, 12% improvement over 60% resistance 70% = 30 HP damage, 14% improvement over 65% resistance This clearly demonstrates that stronger hardening requires far less shield regen/boosting. What you should also considder is a setup that does not rule out limited active boosting. If as you say you got cap to spare, then it stands to reason that 1 slot fitted with a efficient active booster migh work very well. Of course the sustainable boost rate must be higher then the implicit loss of passive recharge rate cause by removing a shield extender. Try a sinlge gisii a-type small shield booster, as it can boost 28.5 HP/sec without ever running out of cap. Or try 2 hardener in combination with it. This would not cost you a single passive recharge (shield extender) slot and still increase recharge rate per second considerably. Drop the hardener for the strongest base resistance or the least expected damage type. Check out my Shield/Armor resistance calculator.
Nomen Nescio	Posted - 2005.06.03 15:42:00 - [53] The most amazing thing about hardening is that people do understand that if you have 0 resist and add 50% hard you will take twice less damage. AT THE SAME TIME, if you have 50% resist and you add 50% hard you get "only" 25% more resist, BUT in fact it works as good as first 50%. Because you actually will take again twice less damage (4 times less damage then with 0 resists). So for example if you add one hard you need half of HP boosting to maintain same tank, and if you add another hard you need 1/4 of HP boosting for the same tank (arguably stacking makes it a bit less, but in general it is true). So cap wise with any active tank hardening is very good and every small addition of resistanse counts.
Dewar Scrabulous	Posted - 2005.06.03 15:59:00 - [54] Edited by: Dewar Scrabulous on 03/06/2005 15:59:46 That would be true if there weren't stacking penalties. The penalties muck things up pretty bad. It doesn't keep me from using uber-resistance AF though. -Dewar PS: I see I was an idiot and skipped a paragraph when reading the post. Whoops. ---
Dimitri Forgroth	Posted - 2005.06.03 16:18:00 - [55] The stacking penalty isn't too bad when using 2 hardeners. The second will still give ~36% reduction in damage, which imo is well worth it. \| Don't be a bad loser \|
Shayla Sh'inlux	Posted - 2005.06.03 16:33:00 - [56] Edited by: Shayla Sh''inlux on 03/06/2005 16:33:55 Edited by: Shayla Sh''inlux on 03/06/2005 16:33:33 So what did you prove? You proved that passive tanking works under the following conditions: 1) You sit in a Dominix. A ship with a lot of cpu and the perfect passive tank slot layout. 2) You have the shield skills maxed, and use shield implants along with gang skills. 3) You fight in a limited environment (ie 1v1, knowing each others ships beforehand). Also, in real PvP you run into 4 damage, so that kinetic weakness is gonna hurt. For example,a Megathron throws out up to 500-600 dps easily in a standard light tank blaster fit and up to 900 in gank fitting with rails. Assuming you have 50% resistance, that's still 300 dps received, or 200 more that your tank can handle at its peak. Sure, it'd last a while, but die for sure. 4) You settle for not being able to keep your opponent where he or she is, IF you are able to kill that person in the first place. I see you throw out new numbers; one for where you have a scrambler fitted, one for where you have an AB fitted, one for where you have actual guns fitted. The shield/sec numbers dwindle pretty fast. I seriously doubt you can kill a Raven with that setup, let alone a tanked Apoc. So this passive tank tanks really good in 1v1. What use is that if you can't kill anything? I'm also getting curious on what you have fitted in that Thorax. 2 Extenders and a Hardner? Awesome PvP setup =/ I think everyone pretty much agreed it can be useful for the lazy kind of PvE, but no matter how you twist and turn it, passive tanking is not a workable setup for PvP. Proof me (and others) wrong with actual killmails. ------------------------------------------------------- "Do you really think that's air you're breathing?"
Jennae	Posted - 2005.06.03 16:56:00 - [57] Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux Edited by: Shayla Sh''inlux on 03/06/2005 16:33:55 Edited by: Shayla Sh''inlux on 03/06/2005 16:33:33 So what did you prove? You proved that passive tanking works under the following conditions: 1) You sit in a Dominix. A ship with a lot of cpu and the perfect passive tank slot layout. 2) You have the shield skills maxed, and use shield implants along with gang skills. 3) You fight in a limited environment (ie 1v1, knowing each others ships beforehand). Also, in real PvP you run into 4 damage, so that kinetic weakness is gonna hurt. For example,a Megathron throws out up to 500-600 dps easily in a standard light tank blaster fit and up to 900 in gank fitting with rails. Assuming you have 50% resistance, that's still 300 dps received, or 200 more that your tank can handle at its peak. Sure, it'd last a while, but die for sure. 4) You settle for not being able to keep your opponent where he or she is, IF you are able to kill that person in the first place. I see you throw out new numbers; one for where you have a scrambler fitted, one for where you have an AB fitted, one for where you have actual guns fitted. The shield/sec numbers dwindle pretty fast. I seriously doubt you can kill a Raven with that setup, let alone a tanked Apoc. So this passive tank tanks really good in 1v1. What use is that if you can't kill anything? I'm also getting curious on what you have fitted in that Thorax. 2 Extenders and a Hardner? Awesome PvP setup =/ I think everyone pretty much agreed it can be useful for the lazy kind of PvE, but no matter how you twist and turn it, passive tanking is not a workable setup for PvP. Proof me (and others) wrong with actual killmails. I was also thinking this.. I just would have said it nicer!! lol :)
PASTOR TROY	Posted - 2005.06.03 16:57:00 - [58] Thanks again Pottsey for your hard work, I applaud you for keeping going even though youve gotten alot of forum abuse for trying to prove that passive shield tanking is valid. Keep the test results coming in. Youve won over a few more people. Once again, thanks alot.
Finix Jaeger	Posted - 2005.06.03 17:10:00 - [59] Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux Edited by: Shayla Sh''inlux on 03/06/2005 16:33:55 Edited by: Shayla Sh''inlux on 03/06/2005 16:33:33 So what did you prove? You proved that passive tanking works under the following conditions: 1) You sit in a Dominix. A ship with a lot of cpu and the perfect passive tank slot layout. 2) You have the shield skills maxed, and use shield implants along with gang skills. 3) You fight in a limited environment (ie 1v1, knowing each others ships beforehand). Also, in real PvP you run into 4 damage, so that kinetic weakness is gonna hurt. For example,a Megathron throws out up to 500-600 dps easily in a standard light tank blaster fit and up to 900 in gank fitting with rails. Assuming you have 50% resistance, that's still 300 dps received, or 200 more that your tank can handle at its peak. Sure, it'd last a while, but die for sure. 4) You settle for not being able to keep your opponent where he or she is, IF you are able to kill that person in the first place. I see you throw out new numbers; one for where you have a scrambler fitted, one for where you have an AB fitted, one for where you have actual guns fitted. The shield/sec numbers dwindle pretty fast. I seriously doubt you can kill a Raven with that setup, let alone a tanked Apoc. So this passive tank tanks really good in 1v1. What use is that if you can't kill anything? I'm also getting curious on what you have fitted in that Thorax. 2 Extenders and a Hardner? Awesome PvP setup =/ I think everyone pretty much agreed it can be useful for the lazy kind of PvE, but no matter how you twist and turn it, passive tanking is not a workable setup for PvP. Proof me (and others) wrong with actual killmails. She/he proved that it works. But just as everything in eve it is all dependent on the circumstances. Under the right circumstances I can out tank an Apoc with my ibis. I would be very interested in the possibilitys of passive tank on a Tempest. Sorry for any spelling mistakes, you should know what i mean
Nekhad Jormuzzar	Posted - 2005.06.03 17:37:00 - [60] Wish I could help you guys test, but my battleship skills on Sisi are non-existant.

Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 :: one page
First page \| Previous page \| Next page \| Last page

COPYRIGHT NOTICE
EVE Online, the EVE logo, EVE and all associated logos and designs are the intellectual property of CCP hf. All artwork, screenshots, characters, vehicles, storylines, world facts or other recognizable features of the intellectual property relating to these trademarks are likewise the intellectual property of CCP hf. EVE Online and the EVE logo are the registered trademarks of CCP hf. All rights are reserved worldwide. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners. CCP hf. has granted permission to EVE-Search.com to use EVE Online and all associated logos and designs for promotional and information purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not in any way affiliated with, EVE-Search.com. CCP is in no way responsible for the content on or functioning of this website, nor can it be liable for any damage arising from the use of this website.