FW isn't unbalanced. You're just butthurt because you're losing.

I agree mostly with 1 and 2.
The first #3 i think could be done just by making the ship that captures of the correct size for the plex. A t1 frig can capture a novice, but can't capture a small or up. A t2 frig can capture a small, but not a large, etc. That would atleast make the farmers have to commit larger ships for the LP. Add in the reverse timer when a plex is abandoned before capture, and you can atleast patrol and force farmers out.
The second #3 i think is also a good idea if they could figure out an offensive plex system.

If you notice most of my suggestions are to remove ISK farmers and does little to change any aspects revolving around PVP except bring more variety to it. It's balance by removing the ISK farmers from the Sov War which will leave only PVP.

I guess you are against it as long as the farmers favor your side which is very short sighted. In the past the rivers of tears flowed strong from the Gals when the farmers were on our side. One would think you would remember the days of Stabbed Merlins farming away with nothing you could do to stop them from taking your systems.

The problem with the tier system is and always has been the ISK farmers. Remove the ISK farmers and then we get a Sov war system that is worth fighting over and revolves around PVP.

Except your suggestions don't remove ISK farmers at all. You still have all the farming (some of it now in missions instead of plexes), but now the upgrade level of systems are determined by farmers as well. You've nerfed one of the most important ways that the organised part of the militia was deciding what happened.

In fact none of your suggestions actually solve the problems you've identified. All you're doing is reshuffling things a little bit in the hope that it helps your militia.

Hey look the people losing are crying about imbalance.

Hey look another troll that has nothing to do with FW and wants to be relevant to FW for some unknown reason.

This is the "Warfare and Tactics" forum. It is the PVP forum.

It isn't just about FW.

But this topic is about FW, now don't you feel relevant.

This isn't a troll post. It's a serious question. I'm new to Faction War, and just wondered.... Why are ISK farmers a bad thing? If all they do is flip systems of little strategic value for LP then why care? The only people bothered by lower tiers and lower payouts would be other ISK farmers. What am I missing?

This isn't a troll post. It's a serious question. I'm new to Faction War, and just wondered.... Why are ISK farmers a bad thing? If all they do is flip systems of little strategic value for LP then why care? The only people bothered by lower tiers and lower payouts would be other ISK farmers. What am I missing?

You know how small alliances who are crap like to talk about how the sov war is unfair because they don't want to participate in sov mechanics? You've seen them talk about how they "just want to pvp" and how the enemy has no life and all that?

Basically the caldari are mad because they are losing, but they are losing because they refuse to fight the sov war (plexes / flipping) and just do lolroams. The gallente fight both the sov war and the lolroam war.

Masternerdguy.. this is a FW topic offering solutions to a problem.. Perhaps if we started a topic about people whom lose Navy Ravens in Prism you might be relevant to the discussion. That is unless you have a solution rather than just being a useless troll.

So, the problem is that once you lose it's harder to make a comeback because all the fairweather friends switch sides for better LP payouts?

I guess you get to learn who your real friends are, then.

There is no point to try to fix FW anymore, CCP has done all they will done and thats it.

Better to look something else to do.

How do people feel about the following two solutions;

1-Rollback timer to be implemented for defensive plexing. If the person runs from the plex, then the timer rolls back to a certain amount of time

2-Increase the number of rats to shoot for offensive plexing. Obviously, we don't want a huge spawn like we did before this patch. But perhaps a couple more spawns with an extra NPC per spawn ? Some people say 'chained farming' is a tactic that people use and my solution would help minimize that but I have not seen chained farming on either side so I believe it's a nonissue.

GalMil seems to find it "worthwhile to engage in the Sov War". What you really mean is "CCP just needs to make it easier for Caldari to take on Gallente despite their inferior numbers and organisation"

Whine less, organise more.

GalMil seems to find it "worthwhile to engage in the Sov War". What you really mean is "CCP just needs to make it easier for Caldari to take on Gallente despite their inferior numbers and organisation"

Whine less, organise more.

How do people feel about the following two solutions;

1-Rollback timer to be implemented for defensive plexing. If the person runs from the plex, then the timer rolls back to a certain amount of time

2-Increase the number of rats to shoot for offensive plexing. Obviously, we don't want a huge spawn like we did before this patch. But perhaps a couple more spawns with an extra NPC per spawn ? Some people say 'chained farming' is a tactic that people use and my solution would help minimize that but I have not seen chained farming on either side so I believe it's a nonissue.

Edit: Also, I would like to see more plexes requiring a BC to run it. The Fast Forward patch really encouraged people to come out in BCs and pirate ships. However Retribution has discouraged that and it's all just cruiser fights and below

Mutnin if you spent half as much time in game actually plexing as you do crying on the forums about how FW is stacked against Caldari, well Caldari would be the faction about to hit T5 and Gallente would be struggling to keep one or two systems. What I am saying sir is you waste a lot of time crying on these forums. All my tear reservoirs have been filled by you, so thanks for that.

Believe it or not we both agree. It was mainly the farmers and the mechanics that encouraged people farming plexes in gunless frigates that made inferno so bad and kept the amarr from being able to keep economic parity.

I would like the the original inferno tier system but toned down. Instead of tier 5 being 75% discount maybe make it a 60% discount. But keep it so there is no lp for d-plexing and keep it where there is no reason to join a side that just did a tier 5 cashout because you will have just missed the boat.

The cashouts gave goals instead of this forever grind we have now. Perhaps the time between cashouts should be longer or shorter. I really don't care, but that could easilly be accomplished by changing the vp per plex. (yes i said vp not lp. vp is how much a system is contested per plex)

As for the other changes I would still recomend that they make plexing a pvp game as per my signature. But if they must have npcs I like what hans has proposed and what ccp is doing. Must kill them all etc. Another key is to start notifying us when plexes are attacked and a form of timer rollback. But these notifications and timer rollbacks will not be good if the war is lopsided. And unfortunately because they chose a lopsided financial system that sort of ruins the whole thing.

To the extent people say that there is no advantage to winning under the old system if everyone can hit tier five, I would say that if your side currently has over 50% of the systems you get full lp for pvp and a 50% bonus (over pre inferno rates) to the lp you get for missions. If your side has under 50% of the systems then you get half the lp for pvp and only preinferno pay for missions.

Plus the side that hold the majority of systems over a 12 month period would get some other perk. Perhaps an economic one like an additional item in the lp store, or just improve a unique item (make amarr plates or eg, minmatar shield worth buying) Or it could be a non-economic one like a statue in the fw system that was held by the militia long enough. The statue could be of the person who got the most kills or the most vp or the ceo or the corp with the most kills or vp or it could be a statue of all 4 or whatever. Other sorts of swag for winning could be an increase in your factions corporations in the war zone. So if minmatar win some of the carthum stations might become boundless stations. There are plenty of options.

The idea is that there would be very short term goals like capture this plex. Medium term goals like achieve a tier 5 cashout, and long term goals like memoralize our achievments permantently in the game through continued dominance. Because these goals all have different timelines people would always have more to fight for. The game would be economically balanced as long as everyside could achieve tier 5 cashouts.

If they did this and one side still couldn't hit a tier 5 cashout then they could do some tweaks like reduce the vp for d-plexing. Or they could say you can't start plexing a system for a set time after it flips, or if you do, you don't get as much vp. Which option would depend on the specific reason why a certain faction was unable to achieve any tier 5 cashouts.

But the original inferno system had a much more strategic nature than this current forever grind. You had certain stages to achieve to hit a tier five cashout. If you botch any of them you ruin it. But if you follow through you should be able to hit the tier 5 cashout. That was a very good thing.

FW doesn't need to be economically lopsided to make it meaningful.

You know how small alliances who are crap like to talk about how the sov war is unfair because they don't want to participate in sov mechanics? You've seen them talk about how they "just want to pvp" and how the enemy has no life and all that?

Basically the caldari are mad because they are losing, but they are losing because they refuse to fight the sov war (plexes / flipping) and just do lolroams. The gallente fight both the sov war and the lolroam war.

Because the farmers all gravitate to the side which gives them the most ISK per hour. This means guys on the losing side can't make a comeback due to anything they gain will be taken away by farmers. When you are dealing with hundreds of farmers that are around all hours of the day you simply can not stop them from taking the plexes, specially when the reward to the farmer is 150% more than the reward to the guy defending.

It's like Custard's last stand against the Indians or the British against the Zulus. The overwhelming numbers take their toll.

if we doo all theese changes you want :
dont forget to remove ecm from caldari mission rats....

ah and well move jita to gal space please
otherwise all theese little farmers will go caldari again

-> just decrease the money for plexes and add 1 low dps spawn and we will be fine


btw im just wondering are the FW guys the only ones who are posting with their main on the forums

If the situation was the opposite you'd not be here complaining.

Just saying.

Pre-Retribution, FW was Thrashers Online.

Now it is Thrashers & Mallers Online (with Augorors Online supporting them). So I agree there needs to be something done to encourage BC and BS usage in faction warfare space. I haven't undocked my Cyclone in months.

Not that this is all bad; the T1 cruiser buff has reinvigorated the class, and FW is now (due to the plex spawn frequency) the pre-eminent place to go for T1 cruiser PVP. Maybe that is how it should be and this is the lot of FW. Would I be completely disappointed if whenever I flew in FW it was in a T1 frig, dessie or cruiser? No.

As for the complaints about FW plexing and farmers. Well, people will farm, no matter what. Making missions more lucrative than plexing is not the solution; right now a bunch of strategists in the Minmatar militia subscribe to the theory that they need to push L4 to reattract the farming alts. They do this by farming basically risk-free 100K's worth of LP's from bulk spawning FW level 4's and bulk donating LP's to i-hubs, to push all systems to level 5 and toss up a massive buffer. This helps cement Tier 3 and soon Tier 4, and thus...farming alts.

The solution, to me, is to normalise FW missions or remove them entirely. This will make the game entirely about FW plexing. And yes, you will not get equality between opposing militias at all times. There will always be an underdog. There will always be vast swathes of territory heavily contested by the "losing" side, which can then push and flip and dump P's and cash out themselves once every so often.

But you won't have megatonnes of basically free LP's flooding into the market from missions, being spent on consciously attracting farmers, which then perpetuates inequalities with militias.

A peripheral change would also be to make effective covert cloaking ships in the destroyer and frigate class which are capable of ganking combat frigates. This will allow defenders to camp plexes and hotdrop people, which favors defenders.

But I don't think that the solutions presented by Mutnin are entirely plausible fixes or sensible changes to emchanics. Especially not biasing towards missions, which suits the rich who have alts and Tengus with covert subs.

There is no point to try to fix FW anymore, CCP has done all they will done and thats it.

Better to look something else to do.

The problem with factional warfare is the players and that one side can "win" factional warfare v0v

I've said this multiple times in the past. You might as well turn it into a complete arena like RVB with so many rules that its not REAL PVP.

I've always found people who cont. to go on about factional warfare and fixing it a joke.

To reiterate!

The dudes suggesting fixes are the problem. Corps or alliances working together to "win" is the problem. Making factional warfare just what it was and what its worth is. A big ******* war dec is the solution.

Which means. Allowing relatively easy and profitable factional warfare missioning. Removing everything to do with system control and loving each helps.

I've never under stood why you guys always complain about ECM rats specially now that there are skills to negate a lot of that. Let me give you a tip.. When you run Caldari FW missions solo in a bomber, you normally fit your ship with 2x sensor boosters with range scripts. This is because Gal NPC have damps and they make it so you can't target.

Lets just think for one moment .. Stealth Bombers have naturally high sensor strength.. So instead of adding those 2x sensor boosters you simply add 2x ECCM. I can't remember the exact fit but you can do quite a few of the Gal LVL 4's solo in a stealth bomber. Yes there are 2 or 3 that are too hard but that's due to the missile spam not the ECM.

With the new skills you could likely get away with 1 ECM & a sensor booster that would allow you to do all the missions.. However I bet you guys never actually tried and just complained about it instead.

You could of course always do the easy out and just take aggro with an alt in a ceptor and dps with the bomber. That's the most efficient way anyway.

that 2 pilot solution would meen caldari > gallente again so solo is the way:-)
i allways did missions in a Myrm when i was solo (to bad missile skills^^/dont laugh at me)
but : wouldnt caldari rats missiles murder you when you use the slots for eccm insteat of tank on you stealthbomber :-)
well whatever i was joking that if you do all the changes we still wont have it fair, because farmers will choose the easy side even if its just the jita access

lol dit you edit your post or am i too drunk you wrote that stuff about the missiles^^

I can't say that I disagree with what you have said about the giant war dec. I personally like FW more when it wasn't about the Sov war. It was nice when you just logged in and the focus was trying to get a fight rather than trying to get guys to go defend some system.

It's why I liked the old system TBH. If I needed to make ISK I did a mission run when ever I wanted and cashed out my LP's at my convenience. I then undocked and just had random PVP, be it in a gang or solo. Almost no one cared about who held the most systems out side forum trolling and the focus was about PVP.

It was never really about Sov War until CCP decided to use FW as their null sec test bed, the sov war was just a optional thing that was mostly done by the guys that wasted to RP for their faction.

I personally just try to offer some sort of solution because I miss the way FW used to be and hope we can get it back.

my 2 isk:

1. system upgrades need to be changed.
2. tier needs to be changed.
3. tier benefits need to be changed.

tier should be based solely on % of systems owned.
in other words there are 70 systems in amarr/minmatar FW.
amarr owns 21 and minmatar owns 49.
amarr have have 30% control so tier 2 and minmatar have 70% control so tier 4.

tier benefits
tier 1: 0% increased LP
tier 2: 5% increased LP
tier 3: 10% increased LP
tier 4: 15% increased LP, 0 LP for defensive plexing
tier 5: 20% increased LP, 0 LP for defensive plexing

change the system upgrade **** though.
level 0: nothing
level 1: 5% cheaper clones, 5% cheaper market orders, 5% plex rat dmg, 5% plex rat armor/shield repair, 5% plex rat armor/shield/structure
level 2: 10% cheaper clones, 10% cheaper market orders, 10% plex rat dmg, 10% plex rat armor/shield repair, 10% plex rat armor/shield/structure
level 3: 15% cheaper clones, 15% cheaper market orders, 15% plex rat dmg, 15% plex rat armor/shield repair, 15% plex rat armor/shield/structure
level 4: 20% cheaper clones, 20% cheaper market orders, 20% plex rat dmg, 20% plex rat armor/shield repair, 20% plex rat armor/shield/structure
level 5: 25% cheaper clones, 25% cheaper market orders, 25% plex rat dmg, 25% plex rat armor/shield repair, 25% plex rat armor/shield/structure

buffer: plexes time down when no enemies are inside (only times down back to original 0 time), plex NPCs scram and web in addition to their increased dmg, repping, and total armor/shield/structure hitpoints