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Typherin laidai
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Posted - 2005.06.08 07:51:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Typherin laidai on 08/06/2005 08:05:11
Ok now first off lets try and keep this thread flame free (rich coming from me but meh)
Imoh the outlaw lifestyle could do with a bit of loving from the Dev's for reasons which Il try and point out.
Please note I am discussing "Outlaws" not 'Pirates' as such as they can effectively come under many different descriptions.
Whats 'Borked' about being an Outlaw ?
Barrier to entry
As it stands at the moment within the game only a player with a battleship or I suppose you could say a tanked BC stands any chance of being able to tank sentrys for any amount of time.
Frigs/Cepters/cruisers etc have no place in gate combat at all.
That and due to the level of fire from the sentrys no 1 battleship stands ANY realistic chance of killing another battleship at a gate unless their target is clearly stupid or afk.
Lowered Proffesion Options
The outlaw in eve has a far lowered amount of available options to him than any of the other proffesions. Ie a lot of pirates have no accessable decent agents in their region as a lot are out of reach due to sec status's. they also cannot effectively war many targets as they retreat to empire. So Mercing is not possible , Nor is production & mining unless your prepared to sell in Low sec with a very limited demand and poor general market prices. Unless of course your prepared to do your hauling to high sec with an alt... which was not how the game was intended 
Barrier To Leaving ?
Now I realise the whole "You lowered your sec deal with it" comments are going to flow. but anyway.
As it stands the time taken to 'repair' your status is so great thats its just really not worth bothering with. Becuase lets not forget that not everyone has access to 750k spawns. A lot of Outlaws play as just that.. An Outlaw... and have no place or time for alliances and all the pathetic politics that come with it Thats not a flame at alliances... they create good depth and feeling within the game, but theyre not for everyone.
My Proposals < Note 'Proposals' for discussion... not "I WANT THIS NOW"
Significantly Lower Sentry Dmg
But increase the range to the 250km .. (max lock range afaik for players) this will not stop sniper setups.. (Why should it.. its a valid setup) just make them require some sort of tank for the sentrys.
this should hopefully allow a well tanked cruiser to have a chance of actually being a  around gates in low sec.
Add More Low Sec Content
Include some of the lower high end ores
Better NPC Spawns
Decrease Sec status repair time
Add more of an increase for NPC kills
Or bring in Bribes
[EDIT] Forgot to say.
Outlaw Vs ummm CareBear Outlaw ?
As it stands at the moment there is Absolutely no reason for a player to go Outlaw. There is nothing that they can achieve by this that they cant do in empire simply war deccing Industrial/Production corps... they keep their status and have free travel through empire. And also cannot be attacked at whim.... Surely this isnt what CCP wanted 
Feel free to discuss.... please keep it flame free, I havent insulted anyone on iether side of the argument. Id just like to know other people opinions.
Thx
Typherin LaiDai Care Negotitations Expert level 5
'Give me a position of power and I'l abuse it in an instant' |
Finix Jaeger
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Posted - 2005.06.08 08:04:00 -
[2]
Yeah, I'd love to do some pirating in my pirate ship (rupture) but the only other targets in lowsec is other pirates and they mostly (read: always) gatecamp in battleships.
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MutationZ
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Posted - 2005.06.08 08:14:00 -
[3]
I generally agree with what you are aiming for. Many won't.
I agree with the "barrier to leaving". Very college like description I'd like to see this being a bit of loving. It would open up doors to change proffesions in this "game".
I'm not sure I agree with the sentry gun bit. Perhaps have the damage ramp up over time so a nasty pirate has chance to web, scramble and ransom (as opposed to a quick gank). People whose sole intention is to gank will get hit harder and harder the longer they tank making it unfeasable.
My thoughts anyway, for what they are worth.
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Typherin laidai
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Posted - 2005.06.08 08:20:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: MutationZ
I generally agree with what you are aiming for. Many won't.
I agree with the "barrier to leaving". Very college like description I'd like to see this being a bit of loving. It would open up doors to change proffesions in this "game".
I'm not sure I agree with the sentry gun bit. Perhaps have the damage ramp up over time so a nasty pirate has chance to web, scramble and ransom (as opposed to a quick gank). People whose sole intention is to gank will get hit harder and harder the longer they tank making it unfeasable.
My thoughts anyway, for what they are worth.
Not a bad idea 
Would making dmg increase through time not require additional coding though ? (if so prob not going to happen lol  )
Typherin LaiDai Care Negotitations Expert level 5
'Give me a position of power and I'l abuse it in an instant' |
ollobrains
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Posted - 2005.06.08 08:25:00 -
[5]
Improved player owned stations(small POS) and pigs in space (ie floating roaming agents) should solve that problem.
What you need to do is set up a POS (manufacturing slots with limits, research slots, etc are a good idea eventually)
If operating in low sec space this way simply sign an agreement with a low sec corparation to act as youre haulers - buyers etc it can work.
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Eris Discordia
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Posted - 2005.06.08 08:31:00 -
[6]
*gives Typherin some loving*
I ♥ my pink dreadnought of pwnage
Mail [email protected] if you have any questions. |
Typherin laidai
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Posted - 2005.06.08 08:33:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Eris Discordia
*gives Typherin some loving*
/emote hugs eris 
Typherin LaiDai Care Negotitations Expert level 5
'Give me a position of power and I'l abuse it in an instant' |
Nikolai Nuvolari
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Posted - 2005.06.08 09:30:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Eris Discordia
*gives Typherin some loving*
OMG Typherin you lucky bastard. I hate you now.
___________________________________________
^^^***---All things serve the Beam---***^^^
GDBT is recruiting! |
Famine Aligher'ri
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Posted - 2005.06.08 11:33:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Famine Aligher''ri on 08/06/2005 11:36:43
It's fine the way it is. It IS rather simple to "Pirate" in "Low Security Empire" space as is. The security status decrease (That decreases rapidly) balances out the trade. It keeps people in line with really wanting to do this trade or not. Being if your status is to low, you obviously can't enter good trade systems to buy supplies. So in giving pirates like myself who have -5.0 status or lower more easy oppertunities to increase our status. Would obviously give the trade no real downfall. Security status reflects your character's alignment. Good or Evil basicly. You wish to give all the evil players easier ways to prentend to be "Good". Which I don't agree with. Evil should have to work harder to get good status. That means going to 0.0 to fend for yourself or begging some alliance or corp to let you hunt.
Quote:
Killing haulers makes profit yes. but they dont fight back which isnt very fun... Confused
I think your missing the point.. "Barrier To Entry"
Not all players own a battleship...
Not all players wish to fly a battleship
As I stated! You don't have too, to gate camp a gate (If that's what you were refering too). I currently own a Tempest and I don't fly it. I rather chill in my A) Prophecy with Cloaking Technology B) Maller with Tanking Technology or C) Claw that rips your face off. Piracy isn't about having worthy fights. It's more about making isk. I stress, if you want someone to fight back. Join a pvp war or some corp that is all about ***** sizes
Famine Aligher'ri, of The Aligher'ri
-The Frig- |
Typherin laidai
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Posted - 2005.06.08 11:36:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Dred 'Morte
i have small idea:
small to moderate loss when losing a ship (right now it is big)
high to very high reward when destroying a ship (right now very low)
Im sorry what ?
the current loss for a battleship ..
your insurance 30mill ish
your mods (nothing too expensive for me) 15mill ish
a 45 mill loss for a battleship is trully pathetic...
Dont even get me started on insurance (as I believe it should be removed)
and the gains for the kill depend on who/what you killed. I dont kill many haulers as I find it boring and only do it to make some cash. So far ive been lucky and the ones ive come across have netted me about 100mill - 150mill for a cppl of them.
Typherin LaiDai Care Negotitations Expert level 5
'Give me a position of power and I'l abuse it in an instant' |
Typherin laidai
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Posted - 2005.06.08 11:40:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Famine Aligher'ri
Edited by: Famine Aligher''ri on 08/06/2005 11:36:43
Quote:
Killing haulers makes profit yes. but they dont fight back which isnt very fun... Confused
I think your missing the point.. "Barrier To Entry"
Not all players own a battleship...
Not all players wish to fly a battleship
As I stated! You don't have too, to gate camp a gate (If that's what you were refering too). I currently own a Tempest and I don't fly it. I rather chill in my A) Prophecy with Cloaking Technology B) Maller with Tanking Technology or C) Claw that rips your face off. Piracy isn't about having worthy fights. It's more about making isk. I stress, if you want someone to fight back. Join a pvp war or some corp that is all about ***** sizes
Im sorry but your cloaked prophecy has no use on a gate. Gimped lock time... No abilty to cloak after you have agro'd .. and cloak timer before you can lock if you where cloaked to start with ?
And as for your maller... dont make me laugh. Your average badger is going to own you.
Typherin LaiDai Care Negotitations Expert level 5
Originally by: Eris Discordia
*gives Typherin some loving*
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Famine Aligher'ri
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Posted - 2005.06.08 11:50:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Famine Aligher''ri on 08/06/2005 11:51:12
You're kidding right? Like to know how a "Badger" that has 175 shield HP, 475 armor HP is going to with stand a instant lock with tech II weaponry. Like eatting cake. Then again, they could multi-jam you. What are the chances of people actually doing that ::Famine glances at his hauler kill list:: Not very often... Havn't seen a badger fly by in a while heh.
Speaking on Cloaking Devices. The sensor recab time is pretty high. The scan resuliton bonus however means nothing with obviously 1 sensor booster. You actually have gained more when using a sensor booster. However, cloaking devices means you pick your target. You know how slow some people are to get from 15km to the target? You know how easily fooled people are when you uncloak and they think you're about to warp away because you didn't instant lock them? It's all about like I said, picking your targets. Also like to remind you, cloaking devices are optional.
So to sum this up. You have no concept of anything you posted. You seem to think "Haulers" own "Cruisers" now. You obviously seem to think, you can't tank sentry gun fire when your "Resisted out" as well "Tanked out" with massive armor mods. You also seem to think "Piracy" for one, is about having targets that actually put up a fight. I was trying to be more sensable with you. But now, it's just becomming another thread of "You don't know, why are you speaking".
Famine Aligher'ri, of The Aligher'ri
-The Frig- |
BuRnEr
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Posted - 2005.06.08 11:54:00 -
[13]
Better ore in low sec belts will bring back some "content" for the bad boys.
Originally by: d'hofren
Barrier to leaving - Yes, (I never though I would say this), sec hits are borked. Ideally sec status should be faction based. If you arrived at -7 after beating on people in matar space you should be able to nip over to amarr space in a shuttle, (where they would great you like a hero)
OMG yes, that would be SOOOO cool.
I wish CCP would stop this over protective sentry gun/aggro timer, Give pirate hunters better tools to track outlaws. Make a better bounty system so pirate hunters can make a livin hunting down outlaws but that will only work if there are outlaws to hunt.
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Typherin laidai
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Posted - 2005.06.08 11:59:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Famine Aligher'ri
You're kidding right? Like to know how a "Badger" that has 175 shield HP, 475 armor HP is going to with stand a instant lock with tech II weaponry. Like eatting cake. Havn't seen a badger fly by in a while heh.
Speaking on Cloaking Devices. The sensor recab time is pretty high. The scan resuliton bonus however means nothing with obviously 1 sensor booster. You actually have gained more when using a sensor booster. However, cloaking devices means you pick your target. You know how slow some people are to get from 15km to the target? You know how easily fooled people are when you uncloak and they think you're about to warp away because you didn't instant lock them? It's all about like I said, picking your targets. Also like to remind you, cloaking devices are optional.
So to sum this up. You have no concept of anything you posted. You seem to think "Haulers" own "Cruisers" now. You obviously seem to think, you can't tank sentry gun fire when your "Resisted out" as well "Tanked out" with massive armor mods. You also seem to think "Piracy" for one, is about having targets that actually put up a fight. I was trying to be more sensable with you. But now, it's just becomming another thread of "You don't know, why are you speaking".
Lol actually I do... right first off how many decent pilots fly through low sec without insta's ? if you wanna catch them you catch them as they try to leave your gate.... you say your proph setup is fine cos your Sensor booster negates the cloak... yes it does.. and woo you gain a 5% bonus. Dont know if you checked the scan resolution on a Proph but its pathetic... I can guarentee you you WONT catch a hauler before it warps.
As to Badger pwning cruisers ? Ummm im sorry but your "tanked" Maller even with tech II guns isnt going to kill a decent hauler pilot before it iether Jam's you... and your dead. Or simply warps off. no way you can fit a decent amount of scramblers on a sentry tanking proph.
So iether your attacking noobs or your not being entierly truthfull. And as to your Cloaked Proph...  Rofl. Come attack me anytime in it m8
Im sorry if this seems to be a flame... its not meant as one
But ive never found a decent target with any sort of decent loot that hadn't got insta's to get through the system....
The only small ship ive ever had fun with at gates was a retribution... which can tank for a fair while to be fair... but not everyone can fly tech II friggies 
Anyways il stop arguin now..
Typherin LaiDai Care Negotitations Expert level 5
Originally by: Eris Discordia
*gives Typherin some loving*
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Dred 'Morte
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Posted - 2005.06.08 15:28:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Dred ''Morte on 08/06/2005 15:28:25
Edited by: Dred ''Morte on 08/06/2005 15:28:03
Originally by: Typherin laidai
Originally by: Dred 'Morte
i have small idea:
small to moderate loss when losing a ship (right now it is big)
high to very high reward when destroying a ship (right now very low)
Im sorry what ?
the current loss for a battleship ..
your insurance 30mill ish
your mods (nothing too expensive for me) 15mill ish
a 45 mill loss for a battleship is trully pathetic...
Dont even get me started on insurance (as I believe it should be removed)
and the gains for the kill depend on who/what you killed. I dont kill many haulers as I find it boring and only do it to make some cash. So far ive been lucky and the ones ive come across have netted me about 100mill - 150mill for a cppl of them.
Oh oh oh! ur ******* rich, 45mill is nothing
And its more like 10millions (if not more) just for armament, cap rechargers II / xlarge c5 in meds... large accos in lows or pds II in lows.. crystals in case of lasers... more like 20-60mill in equipment
Insurance 30mill, it pays 115mill, BS costs more like 125-135mill
so its more like of a 60-120million isk of a BS loss
Guess what, even in a well fited apoc, i take weaks to make that amount of money, and thats playing evryday
u friggin nerd...
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Typherin laidai
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Posted - 2005.06.09 06:13:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Dred 'Morte
Edited by: Dred ''Morte on 08/06/2005 15:28:25
Edited by: Dred ''Morte on 08/06/2005 15:28:03
Originally by: Typherin laidai
Originally by: Dred 'Morte
i have small idea:
small to moderate loss when losing a ship (right now it is big)
high to very high reward when destroying a ship (right now very low)
Im sorry what ?
the current loss for a battleship ..
your insurance 30mill ish
your mods (nothing too expensive for me) 15mill ish
a 45 mill loss for a battleship is trully pathetic...
Dont even get me started on insurance (as I believe it should be removed)
and the gains for the kill depend on who/what you killed. I dont kill many haulers as I find it boring and only do it to make some cash. So far ive been lucky and the ones ive come across have netted me about 100mill - 150mill for a cppl of them.
Oh oh oh! ur ******* rich, 45mill is nothing
And its more like 10millions (if not more) just for armament, cap rechargers II / xlarge c5 in meds... large accos in lows or pds II in lows.. crystals in case of lasers... more like 20-60mill in equipment
Insurance 30mill, it pays 115mill, BS costs more like 125-135mill
so its more like of a 60-120million isk of a BS loss
Guess what, even in a well fited apoc, i take weaks to make that amount of money, and thats playing evryday
u friggin nerd...
7 MegaPulse I / 7 heat Sink II - the only remotley costly bits of setup on my geddon.
Price ... about 15 mill + insurance cost .
As I said. Now that really isn't a lot of money... your avergae mission runner can make it an one night and your average PvP'er can make that fairly easily if they get a nice catch...
How does pointing out that people dont lose enough when a ship goes down make me a nerd 
Your lack of ability to make money in a game where its damn easy is your problem... And just for the record... I aint rich ! far from it
Typherin LaiDai Care Negotitations Expert level 5
Originally by: Eris Discordia
*gives Typherin some loving*
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Nytemaster
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Posted - 2005.06.09 06:57:00 -
[17]
I think they should allow -5 and lower into empire space but make them attackable with no real means to defend themselves. If they fire on anyone they will be shot themselves as they are granted no protection. Would be a much better system than just getting shot by sentries and police upon entering invalid systems and still protect the populous from warmongers in high sec space.
Nytemaster |
Maxine Stirner
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Posted - 2005.06.09 07:21:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Maxine Stirner on 09/06/2005 07:26:19
This would take a bad situation, and take the bandaid solutions in a far worse direction.
Pirates want: lot's of prey coming through, ability to run and hide. Except for instas.. they have this.
Travellers want: Ability to run and hide, opportunity to not sit around with their thumb up their butt in a safe system, not to run into a pirate or enemy every time they run a route, Or if so, to have the ability to make the right decision during the encounter to have an opportunity to escape from them. Except for instas.. they have none of this.
I personally despise instas.
Many of your evaluations I agree with, your solutions, however, I find to be horribly unworkable.
1)Pirates shouldn't have to pilot battleships in order to be pirates.
-Agreed. Nerfing sentries should be to tracking or something. No apoc smartbombing the entrance to 0.4 for 3 hours a day please. Sentries all in all are a poor solution to a bigger problem. However, simply going back to the days when people randomly warped anywhere into a system needs to be compensated by better follow-into-warp or system scanning (passive or active) tools. I don't like gate environments.. but I don't want them nerfed.. I want them supplanted with a better and more exciting travel system.
2)Infrastucture in 0.0 or low sec.
-I disagree. I hope agents, excepting research or any kind of service agents, never come to the badlands of player generated content. Player stations should be player built and maintained too. As for markets, we need dehubbing mechanics to allow merchants and buyers to cut their apron strings with Yulai. Then we won't even need hubs in 0.0 space or low sec. We will need a few more markets however, especially non-public ones. -- If you don't wanna maintain it.. you have to find someone you can tolerate not shooting at who will let you use those services.. for a fee. You could take it over, but it will quickly fall into disrepair without real carebears around. (It'll make them feel all warm and fuzzy inside to be needed.)
3)Repairing sec.
-The inability of a person to operate proficiently with negative security is the real problem.
The ability to correct is not what should be addressed. No npc intercession should be possible. Sec should only rise when you destroy those of lower security (i.e. don't be the baddest motha out there) and fall when you destroy someone higher. Pirates shouldn't even have to want to visit Yulag.. even with alts. Probably, Empire is too centralized. It should be divided into several parts and have huge swaths of unrulable space between all of them like as little empires separated by wilderness.
3)cont'd..
Pod killing and property destruction should be counted differently. Murder someone.. that particular clone is fubar forever.
Destroy property? Only sec changes should come from destroying property. Losing property is the real cost of sec changes, which are based on ship value. No podding an alt or corpie endlessly unless he or she has mucho cash (and minerals). I'm not sure that anyone should get a sec change just for losing a ship.. maybe only victory should be rewarded..
Simply shooting at a ship should not cause a sec change.. it should trigger flagging and nothing more. This will cause a necessary crisis that will push more individuals to the ransoming habit.. and betray manhy of those that probably can't be trusted. Pirates should have no qualms about the decisions they make in their profession anyhow.
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Typherin laidai
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Posted - 2005.06.09 07:29:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Maxine Stirner
Edited by: Maxine Stirner on 09/06/2005 07:26:19
-The inability of a person to operate proficiently with negative security is the real problem.
The ability to correct is not what should be addressed. No npc intercession should be possible. Sec should only rise when you destroy those of lower security (i.e. don't be the baddest motha out there) and fall when you destroy someone higher. Pirates shouldn't even have to want to visit Yulag.. even with alts. Probably, Empire is too centralized. It should be divided into several parts and have huge swaths of unrulable space between all of them like as little empires separated by wilderness.
The only problem I can see there is that i would be at 5.0 :D in a few weeks lol. Id just Pod my -10.00 alt over and over again
Typherin LaiDai Care Negotitations Expert level 5
Originally by: Eris Discordia
*gives Typherin some loving*
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Maxine Stirner
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Posted - 2005.06.09 07:40:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Maxine Stirner on 09/06/2005 07:46:44
*scratches head*
Might want to edit that.. you posted 3 minutes after I posted my edited post, so I guess you didn't really read it.
Unless you're alt has a ton of battleships lined up in his hangar, not much is gonna happen. His corpse is worthless and his noobie ships and shuttles are worth about 1/1000th of a point gain.. and only if he is -10.
However, murdering your alt will require death-warping back to somewhere even to get into empire should you desire to shed your implants, whereever you stick them, to do so. Clones are not their deceased owner, and thus are absolved of their crime.. but not their financial obligations or of their status of risk to property.
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Famine Aligher'ri
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Posted - 2005.06.09 09:19:00 -
[21]
Hey I wanted to post some logs up from tonights solo Maller ops.
-This is the ave damage untanked from Sentry Guns on my Cruiser-
combatGallente Sentry Gun places an excellent hit on you, inflicting 272.5 damage.
combatGallente Sentry Gun aims well at you, inflicting 178.4 damage.
-This is the ave damage armor tanked from Sentry Guns on my Cruiser-
combatGallente Sentry Gun aims well at you, inflicting 110.0 damage
-This is rare but frequent cases of damage from Sentry guns on my Cruiser-
combatGallente Sentry Gun barely scratches you, causing 52.8 damage.
-This is the ave hull damage from Sentry guns on my Cruiser-
combatGallente Sentry Gun places an excellent hit on you, inflicting 346.8 damage.
-Maller Specs-
Armor : 2688HP
EM : 66%
EXP : 66%
KEN : 68.125%
THM : 72.375%
I wanted to submit this, not to brag but to show how the damages arn't that massive to begin with. So there is no real need to drop the damages lower per ship class or as a whole. It's obvious frigates can't compete but cruisers on the other hand. Have the technology to atleast tank for a full min before warping out. If anything, sentry guns need OP range upped as I stated.
Famine Aligher'ri, of The Aligher'ri
-The Frig- |
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