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Apocryphal Noise Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 4	Posted - 2013.01.01 07:13:00 - [1] - Quote DPS is very similar (3 sentries easily make up for the slight dps advantage of tachs and add a possible 3rd damage type), tracking is identical. Tanks are identical. Obviously lasers are cap intensive but these ships bring so much dps that it's really not an issue. Curious to here what the general consensus is.
Zoltan Lazar 109	Posted - 2013.01.01 08:17:00 - [2] - Quote Depends on what you're fighting. Do you want EM/Therm or Therm/Kin damage?
Apocryphal Noise Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 4	Posted - 2013.01.01 08:24:00 - [3] - Quote Obviously a Kronos in Gallente space and the Paladin in Amarr space.
PavlikX Shadows of the Day HeII Gate Alliance 35	Posted - 2013.01.01 09:26:00 - [4] - Quote Note. Kronos have advantage (sentries) in amarr space against Sansha because horrible made by CCP tracking disruption
Funky Lazers Shin-Ra Ltd 205	Posted - 2013.01.01 13:32:00 - [5] - Quote Kronos is much better because of damage combo. Lasers only do a good damage to mercs/sansha/BR. Encountering any other rats will bring you a lot of problems. Angels will be almost immune to your damage, just like Guristas and any other rats. The coolness on Kronos is you always do a decent damage to any rat. Therm/Kin combo works for any rat, while EM/Therm is not. Whatever.
Paikis Vapour Holdings 517	Posted - 2013.01.01 13:47:00 - [6] - Quote Funky Lazers wrote: Kronos is much better because of damage combo. Lasers only do a good damage to mercs/sansha/BR. Encountering any other rats will bring you a lot of problems. Angels will be almost immune to your damage, just like Guristas and any other rats. The coolness on Kronos is you always do a decent damage to any rat. Therm/Kin combo works for any rat, while EM/Therm is not. You will only have any trouble with Angels. Everything else is at least somewhat weak to Thermal damage.
Funky Lazers Shin-Ra Ltd 205	Posted - 2013.01.01 14:43:00 - [7] - Quote Paikis wrote: Funky Lazers wrote: Kronos is much better because of damage combo. Lasers only do a good damage to mercs/sansha/BR. Encountering any other rats will bring you a lot of problems. Angels will be almost immune to your damage, just like Guristas and any other rats. The coolness on Kronos is you always do a decent damage to any rat. Therm/Kin combo works for any rat, while EM/Therm is not. You will only have any trouble with Angels. Everything else is at least somewhat weak to Thermal damage. Wrong. Lasers only have 40% of Thermal damage, if you use Mutifreq. If you use others Therm damage ratio is even lower. The biggest part of that damage is wasted due to resists. Even if the rat has 0% Therm resist the damage will be awful. Lets say you do 100 damage, that is 60 EM and 40 TH. High bounty Gurista rat has resists like ~75% EM, 65% EXP, 45% KIN and 55% TH. Your laser will be doing 15 EM and 18 TH = 33 damage While a ship with only one damage type, like Domi with its sentries will be doing 55 damage, assuming it did 100 KIN damage. 55 vs 33 is just awful. You'll be doing 40% less damage with lasers. Whatever.
Gal'o Sengen State War Academy Caldari State 70	Posted - 2013.01.01 17:28:00 - [8] - Quote Paladin, because it works very well in Wormholes and doesn't chew Ammo like a Texan chews Tobacco. Plus it looks sexy. If you want Hybrids and Armour get a Vindicator, it's better even with Minmatar BS I and comes with the added bonus of not requiring you to train a 10x skill to V. It also looks better, it's a Batspacemobile.
hmskrecik TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance 60	Posted - 2013.01.02 09:01:00 - [9] - Quote Kronos pilot here. In my experience the biggest advantage of Kronos is fitting versatility. With just T2 modules only you have pretty decent tank and gank and then you can upgrade the stuff as you go. With deadspace repper, which you will invest in sooner or later, you will be able to free one or two mid/low slots for pure utility. It doesn't seem much but it's really convenient to use, say, AB without any compromise. Speaking of compromise, I've been poking around with Paladin in EFT and one thing which didn't win my heart is the fact that you can't fit tachyons without some PG extension. Also since the damage bonus is tied to the Marauders' skill there is some pressure to train this skill to 5, which can be pain (that being said, Kronos can benefit from it as well; I did it myself and I really enjoy the extra tank and tracking). Ammo usage isn't much issue. The amount you can carry in the cargo hold is enough for several missions at least. Rails' range of course is nowhere near that of tachyons, if you can fit them, but honestly there are only two missions which call for Spikes and they're crappy ones actually. For everything else there is not a problem which can't be fixed with a pair of scripted Tracking Computers. HTH.
Reiisha Evolution The Retirement Club 187	Posted - 2013.01.02 09:27:00 - [10] - Quote hmskrecik wrote: Kronos pilot here. In my experience the biggest advantage of Kronos is fitting versatility. With just T2 modules only you have pretty decent tank and gank and then you can upgrade the stuff as you go. With deadspace repper, which you will invest in sooner or later, you will be able to free one or two mid/low slots for pure utility. It doesn't seem much but it's really convenient to use, say, AB without any compromise. Speaking of compromise, I've been poking around with Paladin in EFT and one thing which didn't win my heart is the fact that you can't fit tachyons without some PG extension. Also since the damage bonus is tied to the Marauders' skill there is some pressure to train this skill to 5, which can be pain (that being said, Kronos can benefit from it as well; I did it myself and I really enjoy the extra tank and tracking). Ammo usage isn't much issue. The amount you can carry in the cargo hold is enough for several missions at least. Rails' range of course is nowhere near that of tachyons, if you can fit them, but honestly there are only two missions which call for Spikes and they're crappy ones actually. For everything else there is not a problem which can't be fixed with a pair of scripted Tracking Computers. HTH. You can fit Tachs if you use a navy repper. Works fine on my setup :) The lack of ammo use on a paladin also means yuou can salvage and loot stuff along the way, whereas with a Kronos you have to come back for that in another ship or wait for your ammo to dissolve - This is something to take into account, missions in Amarr space could bring in quite a bit more isk at the end of the day due to this (when fitting salvagers/tractor beam in the utility highs).
hmskrecik TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance 60	Posted - 2013.01.02 10:21:00 - [11] - Quote Reiisha wrote: You can fit Tachs if you use a navy repper. Works fine on my setup :) The lack of ammo use on a paladin also means yuou can salvage and loot stuff along the way, whereas with a Kronos you have to come back for that in another ship or wait for your ammo to dissolve - This is something to take into account, missions in Amarr space could bring in quite a bit more isk at the end of the day due to this (when fitting salvagers/tractor beam in the utility highs). I stand corrected about tachs. Thanks for clarification. I think though that you misunerstood what I was trying to say about ammo. Which is, marauders generally don't use much of it for their performance. The statement about how much ammo you can keep means how much ammo you can keep, not how much you should take. Normally I take enough to complete a couple of missions and reload at the station where my agent is. It that's too much effort for you, fine, I understand but please don't paint it as a deal breaker. On the other hand I have no other use for this space because I don't loot/salvage during the missions. I kill rats fast enough to consider other activities distracting. When I feel I like to clean up I launch Noctis, otherwise I focus on shooting. And lastly, I'm not saying whether Kronos is better than Paladin. I have first hand experience only with former and thus I refuse to make direct comparison. I just stated what advantages Kronos has. And one of them is crapload of PG. I can fit full rack of railguns, dmg. rig, deadspace repper and still be able to fit AB, MWD, MJD or heavy NOS, no implants required. Sure there are ships which can pull this trick too but I dare say there are not too many of them. Which doesn's say Paladin is worthless. I guess that when doing missions in Amarr space it doubly makes sense to fly this ship.
Aaarghaent Arraghanenet Hedion University Amarr Empire 0	Posted - 2013.01.02 13:58:00 - [12] - Quote Kronos is decent marauder, working really good in gallente space. Without pimping it out you you can easily get 700+ dps from turrets and slowly upgrade it . I always prefered marauders over pirate battelships and armor tank over shield tank due to more versatile style of gameplay. While you think that paladin easily gets 900 dps without max skills and shiny modules, its rather paper dps. Usually pack of ammo (5k-10k) will last for more than few long missions, so its not a big differnce in cost overally.
Kara Books Deal with IT. 306	Posted - 2013.01.03 05:06:00 - [13] - Quote hmskrecik wrote: Kronos pilot here. In my experience the biggest advantage of Kronos is fitting versatility. With just T2 modules only you have pretty decent tank and gank and then you can upgrade the stuff as you go. With deadspace repper, which you will invest in sooner or later, you will be able to free one or two mid/low slots for pure utility. It doesn't seem much but it's really convenient to use, say, AB without any compromise. Speaking of compromise, I've been poking around with Paladin in EFT and one thing which didn't win my heart is the fact that you can't fit tachyons without some PG extension. Also since the damage bonus is tied to the Marauders' skill there is some pressure to train this skill to 5, which can be pain (that being said, Kronos can benefit from it as well; I did it myself and I really enjoy the extra tank and tracking). Ammo usage isn't much issue. The amount you can carry in the cargo hold is enough for several missions at least. Rails' range of course is nowhere near that of tachyons, if you can fit them, but honestly there are only two missions which call for Spikes and they're crappy ones actually. For everything else there is not a problem which can't be fixed with a pair of scripted Tracking Computers. HTH. Im not a Kronos Pilot, but my alt is pretty much all 5's for pally and I love it in Amarr space. Iv got little problem ripping up everything except last angels room solo, I bet a single kronos is about the same. Currently Im using a Pulse fitted version link to fitting here: http://eve.battleclinic.com/loadout/62401-Paladin-Pally.html almost 1500 DPS after drones and Implants (read description for recommended Implants) I was also very upset with the Paladin's inability to fit a full set of Tach's without a PG, but THE I created a Tachy build that needs no PG implant, should be about 1200 DPS with Tachy range (9000M-50km-full DPS output) HERE: http://eve.battleclinic.com/loadout/64058-Tachyon-Paladin-no-PG-implant-100MN-855-DPS-no-drone-no-plant.html you can play around with the Tachy pally on your own, changing drones or even taking out some mid/high slots for more tracktor beams+5 salvage drones or More tracking computer, but the basic fittings are pretty solid. I also want to note, the paladin is by far completely the opposite from being inflexible, the Gallante Marauder is for Gallante space, where the salvage tends to suck, while the Pally is for Amarr space where the salvage is considered very good, I.E. its better ISK to mission in a Pally (but then again you could take the Kronos into Amarr space) I also want to note some more, I burn on average 1 X 800 charge every mission, or 5 every 5th mission, very tested and very tried... P.S. my apologies if bclinic links aren't allowed, if their not then leme know how people post their fittings without breaking rules. (edited some grammar) - if it isnt bad enough =)
Cage Man Evil Guinea Pigs 138	Posted - 2013.01.03 05:34:00 - [14] - Quote Why those 2 ships? if you have no plans to salvage while you shoot.. you could go either vindi or NM with some cross training. I find the pirate faction work much better.. I would recommend using a NM or mach for missioning.. I knw that is not what you asked.. but maybe should think about it.. Maybe try them on the test server and see what you prefer..
White Tree Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx 867	Posted - 2013.01.03 14:33:00 - [15] - Quote THE CORRECT ANSWER IS VARGUR. Former member of CSM6, Champion of the Gallente Master Race.
Apocryphal Noise Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 5	Posted - 2013.01.03 22:07:00 - [16] - Quote White Tree wrote: THE CORRECT ANSWER IS VARGUR. i love you white tree Pulse pally is terrible though. Outside of 20 km's you're doing worse damage than a 425 Kronos and you're still going to have to slowboat around (380 m/s l0l) to kill a lot of stuff. Think i'm gonna go with Kronos, thanks for the input everyone.
Apocryphal Noise Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 5	Posted - 2013.01.03 22:10:00 - [17] - Quote Cage Man wrote: Why those 2 ships? if you have no plans to salvage while you shoot.. you could go either vindi or NM with some cross training. I find the pirate faction work much better.. I would recommend using a NM or mach for missioning.. I knw that is not what you asked.. but maybe should think about it.. Maybe try them on the test server and see what you prefer.. I've thought about it, mostly I don't want to train ANOTHER battleship to 5. I'm almost done with Marauders 5 so at this point it's a matter of practicality. Also, I DO plan on salvaging on the go, no reason not too with a marauder, it can only help your isk/hour.
Kara Books Deal with IT. 310	Posted - 2013.01.03 22:28:00 - [18] - Quote Apocryphal Noise wrote: White Tree wrote: THE CORRECT ANSWER IS VARGUR. i love you white tree Pulse pally is terrible though. Outside of 20 km's you're doing worse damage than a 425 Kronos and you're still going to have to slowboat around (380 m/s l0l) to kill a lot of stuff. Think i'm gonna go with Kronos, thanks for the input everyone. 1200 under 50km, in general most Amarr stuff wants to be within 50 Want to note, I do plan to skip the Mach and go for a Varg on my up and coming alt, I hears good things and I want to have a crack at loading it out and shooting things in the face.
Hakaimono Stillwater Corporation 37	Posted - 2013.01.04 20:14:00 - [19] - Quote Forget the Kronos and Paladin and get a Vargur. Problem solved. Problem stays solved...until you lose it. Then you get another one because any idiot can make their isk back with that sexy beast of a ship.
Apocryphal Noise Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 6	Posted - 2013.01.04 20:48:00 - [20] - Quote Hakaimono wrote: Forget the Kronos and Paladin and get a Vargur. Problem solved. Problem stays solved...until you lose it. Then you get another one because any idiot can make their isk back with that sexy beast of a ship. I don't get why the vargur is so popular. You're shooting almost 100% in falloff. Even if the raw dps is higher than the other turret marauders its effective dps is probably the same or less. You're also going to spending the most on ammo with the vargur.
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE 192	Posted - 2013.01.05 10:42:00 - [21] - Quote kronos and paladin are both pretty good. I have way more time in the paladin (and nightmare) and in amarr space it is awesome (and pretty damn good in caldari space too) Kronos I've mostly just used in a few missions. pretty awesome on the assault and enemies abound 1, 3, 4. ones I can remember off the top of my head. my fits: (I have a 3% pg implant for a vindicator setup, as I cba to train hybrid rigging 5, before I put that in I just used a meta 4 rep on the paladin because I'm too cheap to buy a faction one) omni-tanked for laziness and slightly harder to gank, kronos with no shields and an exp hole has very little ehp. I'd probably put t2 cccs on the paladin at this point but I think I'm done with missioning for a long time, and drop a cap recharger for something, prob tc or sensor booster depending on mission. [Paladin, Tachys] Imperial Navy Heat Sink Imperial Navy Heat Sink Imperial Navy Heat Sink Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane Damage Control II Large Armor Repairer II Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L Small Tractor Beam II Small Tractor Beam II Salvager II Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Hobgoblin II x5 Curator II x2 [Kronos, 425s cap injec] Large Armor Repairer II Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane Damage Control II Shadow Serpentis Magnetic Field Stabilizer Shadow Serpentis Magnetic Field Stabilizer Shadow Serpentis Magnetic Field Stabilizer Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800 Republic Fleet 100MN Afterburner Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script 425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Plutonium Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Uranium Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Thorium Charge L Small Tractor Beam II Small Tractor Beam II Salvager II Large Hybrid Burst Aerator II Large Hybrid Metastasis Adjuster I Warden II x3 Hobgoblin II x5 Warrior II x5
McRoll Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic 72	Posted - 2013.01.05 12:16:00 - [22] - Quote Apocryphal Noise wrote: Hakaimono wrote: Forget the Kronos and Paladin and get a Vargur. Problem solved. Problem stays solved...until you lose it. Then you get another one because any idiot can make their isk back with that sexy beast of a ship. I don't get why the vargur is so popular. You're shooting almost 100% in falloff. Even if the raw dps is higher than the other turret marauders its effective dps is probably the same or less. You're also going to spending the most on ammo with the vargur. It is so popular because it doesn't suffer the problems of wrong damage types and is mostly unaffected by tracking disruption (it doesn't reduce falloff afaik). Also, its tracking and firing rate enables is to kill frigates comfortably up to 20 km in 1- 2 salvos, you are independent from drones in most cases. Add a great tank on top of it and you are golden. Also, only its on paper dps seems bad because of falloff. In reality you can comfortably shoot to 50 km and beyond and still doing fine damage. You guys really need to check up on the falloff formula, I don't have the numbers in my head but I guess I am doing around 80% of my maximum DPS most of the time. [Vargur, New Setup 1] Domination Gyrostabilizer Domination Gyrostabilizer Domination Gyrostabilizer Domination Tracking Enhancer Domination Tracking Enhancer Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script [empty med slot] [empty med slot] [empty med slot] [empty med slot] [empty med slot] 800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L [empty high slot] [empty high slot] [empty high slot] Large Projectile Burst Aerator II Large Projectile Ambit Extension I The core fit gives you a range of 4.2 +72 range with standard ammo without factoring in implants, I have some more because of falloff and 2x damage implants. If you need even more range, take barrage (8.2 + 108). You will be doing most of your paper DPS inside typical ranges of nearly every mission.
Unoob Udumb Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 15	Posted - 2013.01.05 15:47:00 - [23] - Quote McRoll wrote: It is so popular because it doesn't suffer the problems of wrong damage types and is mostly unaffected by tracking disruption (it doesn't reduce falloff afaik). It does reduce falloff since Retribution came out. One sansha TD and you're down to ~3 + 35 km range. More than one and you're almost screwed, since what will be in your range will be under your guns. I used to run missions in Amarr space with my Vargur. Well ... not anymore!
McRoll Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic 72	Posted - 2013.01.05 21:29:00 - [24] - Quote O wow, good to know. Now I need to check on Amarr missions which have TD's in them, what a bummer. But still, other than that the previous arguments are valid. I have a Pally myself but never use it, Vargur is just so much better overall
Fonac Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 9	Posted - 2013.01.06 01:48:00 - [25] - Quote McRoll wrote: Apocryphal Noise wrote: Hakaimono wrote: Forget the Kronos and Paladin and get a Vargur. Problem solved. Problem stays solved...until you lose it. Then you get another one because any idiot can make their isk back with that sexy beast of a ship. I don't get why the vargur is so popular. You're shooting almost 100% in falloff. Even if the raw dps is higher than the other turret marauders its effective dps is probably the same or less. You're also going to spending the most on ammo with the vargur. It is so popular because it doesn't suffer the problems of wrong damage types and is mostly unaffected by tracking disruption (it doesn't reduce falloff afaik). Also, its tracking and firing rate enables is to kill frigates comfortably up to 20 km in 1- 2 salvos, you are independent from drones in most cases. Add a great tank on top of it and you are golden. Also, only its on paper dps seems bad because of falloff. In reality you can comfortably shoot to 50 km and beyond and still doing fine damage. You guys really need to check up on the falloff formula, I don't have the numbers in my head but I guess I am doing around 80% of my maximum DPS most of the time. [Vargur, New Setup 1] Domination Gyrostabilizer Domination Gyrostabilizer Domination Gyrostabilizer Domination Tracking Enhancer Domination Tracking Enhancer Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script [empty med slot] [empty med slot] [empty med slot] [empty med slot] [empty med slot] 800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L [empty high slot] [empty high slot] [empty high slot] Large Projectile Burst Aerator II Large Projectile Ambit Extension I The core fit gives you a range of 4.2 +72 range with standard ammo without factoring in implants, I have some more because of falloff and 2x damage implants. If you need even more range, take barrage (8.2 + 108). You will be doing most of your paper DPS inside typical ranges of nearly every mission. Falloff is something many take for granted, i really do not understand why projectiles are so popular as they are. for example lets compare the vargur with the paladin: if you shoot at 4.2 +72 km's range on a rat with the vargur, you will do 50% of your total dps, with your fit that is 438 dps This means that at 4.2+36 you will do ~80% of your total dps, which on this particular fit is 700 dps without implants and all skills at lvl 5. Now the paladin at the same range With a standard tachyon fit you will do 849 dps, with an optimal of 43+41 km's. Chuck in Aurora (range crystals for lasers) And you get a range of 154+41, and a dps of 566, far superior of the vargur. even tho the range is not relevant it's still much better than what the vargur can do. Reason i say 4.2+36 is because i feel it's the maximum range you usually fight in, you could say less but it does not really matter because the vargur's dps even at optimal never reaches the paladin's anyway, so the paladin only gets better and better the closer the targets are(ofc without factoring in tracking) You could also say more, but the paladin still holds the upper hand by quite a far margin. I've personally flown the paladin, nightmare, machariel and the vargur... and i honestly think the projectile ships has become victim to far to much attention, as they really aren't that good as people say. The only real benefit the vargur has, is the fact that it has ammo for all NPC's this is a big thing, but in my opinion not enough to warrant its use over a paladin in amarr mission space.
Sobaan Tali Caldari Quick Reaction Force 136	Posted - 2013.01.06 09:04:00 - [26] - Quote Kara Books wrote: Apocryphal Noise wrote: White Tree wrote: THE CORRECT ANSWER IS VARGUR. i love you white tree Pulse pally is terrible though. Outside of 20 km's you're doing worse damage than a 425 Kronos and you're still going to have to slowboat around (380 m/s l0l) to kill a lot of stuff. Think i'm gonna go with Kronos, thanks for the input everyone. 1200 under 50km, in general most Amarr stuff wants to be within 50 Want to note, I do plan to skip the Mach and go for a Varg on my up and coming alt, I hears good things and I want to have a crack at loading it out and shooting things in the face. You'll love it. Better tank and doen't burn through ammo like a hot knife through butter and.....the Vargur looks sweeter now. Clear Skies eat your heart out.
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE 192	Posted - 2013.01.06 09:36:00 - [27] - Quote I can't stand to look at my vargur now :( okay it's not that bad, it just lacks the character of the old vargur.
Opertone Aurora Empire Fuzzy Nut Attack Squirrels 274	Posted - 2013.01.07 09:42:00 - [28] - Quote Autocannons are unholy Unholy grail.... No cap use )), the closer rats get, the heavier they get beaten. ACs cycle fast enough, so you can switch targets as needed. ACs have superior tracking, so even faster smaller targets get hit for more. PvP wise ACs do rainbow damage, which is hard to resist. EM and Explosive, thermal and kinetic. You can even split weapons by ammo groups, 2 for Explosive longer range, 2 for Therm/Kin closer range. It actually works for small scale PvP, you come top damage dealer because of extended damage projection range.

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