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Bloody Wench
124
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Posted - 2011.11.06 07:49:00 -
[31] - Quote
I've found a few ways people make life hard or harder when I do one.
Completely ignore the buy/sell prices and continue like nothing has happened. It's annoying but not the end of the world.
EG: if the item is worth 1000 isk generally and I've relisted at 2000 they will not play the game and list new items at 1999.99 but go to something like 1100. This means I have to buy thier items to maintain the artificially high price. This gets expensive fast. They are making 10% while I take on more and more liability.
Import items from an adjacent region if margins permit, and list items somewhere between 1000-1500.
Ignore the margin buy order and continue to buy at the regular price and relisting 10-20% above thier regular purchase price. You can slightly counter the above by placing your own buys in this regard.
The worst though is when there's a large dump by a manufacturer in the order of several days worth of stock at or near the regular sell price. When this happens you either have to go under them meaning your profit is cut substantially or you have to buy them out increasing your liability significantly. Neither of which are desired outcomes.
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Dr Halberstam
Nine Eyes Medical
0
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Posted - 2011.11.10 17:01:00 -
[32] - Quote
This, too, has a learning curve, both on the scammer and the scammed-counterscammer side. Apologies if this was written up before, i had not bothered to look it up.
The scammer tries to create an illusion of demand (illusory buy order) for an overpriced item of his.
The scammer is relaxed in the knowledge that their illusion has only a limited amount of isk in it, thanks to the margin trading skill and empty wallets. Sellers not educated in the scam will find that they cant fulfill the illusion at the listed price, as it "fizzles at the touch"
The damage is done, and the seller (mark) is stuck with the items he bought at the inflated price (or sourced from somewhere else at not so inflated prices, which is a lesser loss, but still, the demand is usually rather small for the items used in these scams - which in turn is a conscious choice by the scammer in order to avoid the illusion fizzling too often, as would happen if supply was plentiful).
This was the elementary case.
However, if the illusion is set at an absurdly high price (which greedy and/or impatient scammers are wont to do), the actual isk remaining in it after margin trading can still be rather substantial - even with the skill at 5 and an empty wallet, this amount is not zero, as can be calculated from the skill description.
At this point the counterscammer estimates the skill level of the scammer, and figures out the actual isk likely to still be in the illusion. He looks for sources of the required item which are not the scammers inflated sell orders or contracts.
The counterscammer knows, that things can be sold for a lower price than the highest buy order. In a normal situation this would be silly, but now it means he can sell the items in question at a price that matches (volume taken into account) the smaller amount of isk still in the illusion.
The counterscammer can make a profit, if he sources the items in question for less than what the illusion is worth. In other words, the illusion will act like a normal buy order - materialize, so to speak - if its not asked by the seller for more isk than what is still in it.
This was the usual scenario. Its not over though.
The scammer can also be even more informed, and can know how to simply empty the illusion, even of the small amount otherwise left in it after margin trading. It can be done within game mechanics, and isnt even terribly difficult. This means that the illusion is indeed just an illusion, with no (or infinitesimal) actual value.
The counterscammer ends up losing.
The counterscammer can realise that this is happening. At this point he can give up trying to counterscam, not knowing when he might stumble upon an emptied illusion.
Or, he can figure out how to tell the vanilla illusions from the emptied ones. This also is easily done within game mechanics (no social engineering or somesuch required), allowing the counterscammer to keep looking for the occasional not-empty illusion.
So far goes the usual working of the scam. Its still not over though.
This is where I slide into theorycrafting. I think there might be a method that allows for the emptying of an illusion in an undetectable manner, but I have not tested it yet. If so, this advanced emptying of the illusion could make it impossible to tell if an illusion is empty or not - I will post the results later when I find out.
Fun little minigame, I made a lot on a couple of lucky counterscams. Best single take was 4 bill on an illusion with a shedload of faction ammo.
Great fun when one spots the occasional non-empty, and races to source the items required (usually from the arse end of the universe) before the illusion fizzles again Can be quite the adrenaline rush, barreling down the Jita pipe in a BR with hundreds of millions worth of some trash tag from Molden Heath in the hold, franticly checking the Jita market on the alt if the illusion is still up, and pondering if Rancer is ok or not... Good times. |
Dane El
Daneco Inc.
4
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Posted - 2011.11.10 21:19:00 -
[33] - Quote
In theory you can punish these scammers by putting enough isk in their wallets to cover the order and then dumping stock on them. You'll get your money back from the sale plus their escrow. Problem is you can't be sure who posted the order and what wallet it is assigned to. Smart scammers will do as the OP and use a corp order not assigned to the master wallet (where your isk will go if you give the corp funds).
Best bet is to just leave it alone unless you already have stock on hand to pop it. You'll make them lose the broker fees to relist the order but no major damage done. |
Bloody Wench
135
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Posted - 2011.11.23 06:02:00 -
[34] - Quote
Dr Halberstam wrote:.....Good times.
Dude...how wasted were you when you wrote this?
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Aerocuker
Global Economy Experts Stellar Economy Experts
2
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Posted - 2011.11.23 22:16:00 -
[35] - Quote
The first few times I found margin trade buy orders in an item that I had stockpiled, I promptly filled the fake buy order to waste the "scammer's" time. But then I realized a better idea was to join in on the fun and try to make some isk by putting my stockpile for sale just under the scammer's sell order. This works quite often, yesterday for instance I made 400m profit on a stack of Cryoprotectant Solutions. I've never set up a margin trading buy order myself, but I've made billions off others doing this scam. |
Zeta Zhul
Preemptive Paranoia
13
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Posted - 2011.11.24 01:23:00 -
[36] - Quote
One interesting variant that I thought of, but have never put into practice, really doesn't have anything to do with trading at all.
Instead the object is to draw in traders and opportunists looking to make a fast isk on a Margin Trading scam.
1. Find an isolated and not usually popular highsec system that has one jump gate.
2. Put a Margin Trading buy order scam in the system for something popular that you want including the associated sell orders.
3. Assemble a gank team that will camp the gate.
4. Gank any transport or Industrial that comes through the gate because most likely it'll be carrying items to fill the buy order -or- to take advantage of the buy order in order to undersell you. Leave the other ships alone because they're probably carrying people who will buy from your sell orders.
You profit from people who buy from your sell orders. You profit from people who bring items to fill your buy order. You profit from people who bring items to undercut your sell orders. |
SileconBridgeBurner
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
2
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Posted - 2011.12.01 16:15:00 -
[37] - Quote
schurem wrote:durrrr i dont get it. ****. i'll never get to play the market if im even too dumb to understand a scam if its laid out for me.
but good for you m8. i dont really see the evil in this scam, but then i dont understand it, so there.
Nice Signature, also, very interesting subject. |
Ilinea
Jovian Labs Jovian Enterprises
2
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Posted - 2011.12.01 17:13:00 -
[38] - Quote
Ms Freak wrote:Tyrnaeg en Varche wrote:So, say normal price for item A is 10k isk. I buy all available items that are being sold below 20k isk. Then I set several SELL orders at about 25-30k isk, and a huge BUY order at 40k.
What stops a player that already has a large stock of item A (bought at normal price, 10k), to set a SELL order at 15k isk? This would fulfill my BUY order, even with Margin Trading applied.
So, he ruins my scam, i end up with DOUBLE the qty of item A -- and gets nice profit too (in this example 5k isk / piece).
Also, if by setting his sell order he sees that the huge BUY order is not fulfilled, he modifies the price until its total value gets below the escrow i've given with Margin Trade. (At level 5, 24% of normal escrow is given for the BUY order)
EDIT :: I just saw that OP says to set BUY order at 80-100% above SELL orders, which takes order of what i've written above. But, I leave this here as a way to counter the scam under certain circumstances. You obviously didn't read the OP properly, let me clarify for you: The BUY order (the inflated one) is created at say 100m isk total and a MINIMUM of 1000 items. The WALLET the buy order is for only has 50m in it because of the margin trading skill. If someone was to attempt to sell 1000 items to that buy order it FAILS because there's only 50m in the wallet and 100mil is needed to pay the seller. If someone tried to sell 10 items to that buy order it FAILS because theres a minimum sell quantity of 1000. The whole point of this scam is that you CANT counter/ruin it, it's simply not possible because there is always at least 1 condition (namely that the wallet the buy order uses never has enough isk in it) that cannot be met. Whoever originally found this was a clever puppy!
See, that is where you definetely are wrong and the one you replied to is right. This buy order CAN be fulfilled under some conditions, if you know each and every mechanic of the market!
Those who aren't able to spot a scam like that on the market, should better think twice if daytrading is for them. Because, when you use every information already available in the game (like the price history), you won't fall for this.
Btw, this is the oldest trick of the world, invented in ancient times already.
They told me to mine... and I started to mine, the market ;) |
Fat Buddah
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2011.12.02 03:05:00 -
[39] - Quote
It is a well known trick, and one way to counter this is to guesstimate the escrow value and sell under the escrow price. Careless scammers will be burnt by this simple counter, but careful ones empty their own escrow by selling to their own buy orders to empty out the escrow. Once the escrow money is spent, the buy order pulls the money directly from the scammer's wallet, which is empty. Hence the order fails.
Another way to counter is, as mentioned, is 0.01 isking the sell order.
However, both countermeasures require one to have sufficient quantity (min. buy qty, remember?) of the item in stock for sale. So always keep that in mind before you go on an anti-scam crusade...just saying.
But seriously, when you see a buy order for an item with a higher-than-sell price and a minimum quantity set up, ask yourself
"Why the f**k does she/he need this many **** in one go?" "Why doesn't she/he buy off from those cheaper sell orders?"
Also, look at the item in question. Do any of us really need, let's say, minimum 1000 ECM drones per go? Well, if you are a trader... maybe. But then again, if you buy your trading items at a price higher than the market sell value, what f**king idiot of a trader are ya?
So obvious scams are obvious, but the real nasty stuff is a margin trading scam with 1 unit order. ex: ships, plex, anything that has high value. This is very hard to tell.
If it looks like a scam, it is a scam. This is EVE. You are not paranoid. Everyone REALLY is trying to kill you. |
Shuluman
Haggard Enterprises
0
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Posted - 2011.12.04 09:43:00 -
[40] - Quote
This doesnt strike me as a scam as much as it does an exploit. The person on the recieving end of this has no way of being able to tell if they will lose out when there is a perfectly legitimate order on the market. Its not the same as contract scams or trade window ones where carefull checking will show up a problem.
Using a method to create an order with the express intention of not allowing it to be fulfilled through current game mechanics suggests that it isnt being used in the way it was intended.
Gaining an advantage through a flaw in the way the game works should be fixed by CCP. They did it with the warp bubble stacking trick in nullsec not so long ago.
Just to clarify i havent been caught by this but making an observation based on what i have read in this thread. |
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Boris Ginnungagap
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
13
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Posted - 2011.12.04 11:53:00 -
[41] - Quote
Scammers are worthless scum, just like pirates. |
Callduron
18
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Posted - 2011.12.04 13:00:00 -
[42] - Quote
Always look at the regional average, it's your first clue. Buying when it's red should set alarm bells ringing.
If CCP want to fix it probably the most elegant way might be to cause orders to fail as soon as there is insufficient isk to cover them, rather than waiting until it's tested. |
Bloody Wench
156
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Posted - 2011.12.04 13:42:00 -
[43] - Quote
Callduron wrote:Always look at the regional average, it's your first clue. Buying when it's red should set alarm bells ringing.
If CCP want to fix it probably the most elegant way might be to cause orders to fail as soon as there is insufficient isk to cover them, rather than waiting until it's tested.
They should just remove the Min QTY part. There's no good reason to have it. |
Derpette Algaert
Republic University Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2011.12.04 15:16:00 -
[44] - Quote
And I thought min. buy orders comes in quite handy for regional buy orders to not need to dock on every station for 1 tritanium
TIL |
OllieNorth
Recidivists Incorporated
16
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Posted - 2011.12.04 16:09:00 -
[45] - Quote
I still don't understand why people want to take a mechanic that is working well and change it because they are too stupid to catch the scam. If you fall for it once, well, welcome to EVE. If you fall for it twice, you're ******** and deserve it.
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Patri Andari
Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer
7
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Posted - 2011.12.04 17:53:00 -
[46] - Quote
Margin Trading does not scam people. People do!
Despite the best attempts by white knights like the O, CCP has so far allowed this skill to exist pretty much as it has from the start. I see no need to break one of the most strategically useful trade skills in the game.
All those claiming there is no way to know.... Uh... Minimum quantity?
Happy transactions. |
DrRuby
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
3
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Posted - 2011.12.07 01:18:00 -
[47] - Quote
I almost fell for one of these the other day but I noticed the minimum item requirement was higher than the total units even available in the region.
I didn't even consider margin trading. Does anyone even use that skill for what its intended for? Buy orders magically disappearing when it goes south seems like a pretty big risk to me. |
Xcen
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
14
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Posted - 2011.12.07 06:24:00 -
[48] - Quote
Funnny that this thread pops up. Someone tried to do this with a meta 2-3 energy neut. I saw the buy order with a min. purchase of 250 units at double the sell price. Tip of advice for the scammer, don't make it so someone must invest 3billion to accommodate your buy order...you need to make it reasonable so people take the bait. (It's like baiting in a maller or drake... to obvious) |
Bloody Wench
171
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Posted - 2011.12.19 18:01:00 -
[49] - Quote
With school being out, now is a good time to give this topic a little nudge for the holidays. |
Whang'Lo
Set Sail to Epic Fail
0
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Posted - 2011.12.30 11:59:00 -
[50] - Quote
Thanks for posting this.
I've seen quite a few of these buy orders around and a couple of times thought about trying to fill them.
Glad I never tried it
I was thinking that people were trying to drive up market averages or something, never knew you could place a buy order that was impossible to fill.
How about this for a simple way CCP could fix this:
Disable the option to set a minimum volume on any margin trade.
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Iria Ahrens
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2011.12.30 13:17:00 -
[51] - Quote
Will Strafe wrote:Teklas Romani wrote:This is brillant even though its nothing new. I think the exspansion of this game is unreal and outright amazing as to the imagination of people. Whats sad is that there are scams like this in the real world...just laid out in this forum for EVE. Awesome to me! Really...? This scam was arguably invented by 2 kids playing Diablo II. One kid enters game and writes in chat: WTB Uber sword of Slashing, paying 10 SoJ!!! 10 SoJ is about 10 times the market price. Other Kid enters and starts spamming: Selling Uber sword of Slashing 3 sojs. The dupe starts thinking.
Different scam.
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Coresti Uthlan
ARK Coresti Star Corp
2
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Posted - 2012.01.17 19:51:00 -
[52] - Quote
Bloody Wench wrote:David Grogan wrote:Bloody Wench wrote:I'm stunned. 180 views and nobody has anything to say. that scam has been known about for years And yet I had a Nanofibre II go off yesterday. Wasn't overly successful but covered costs and now I have some 2500 units that are pure profit no matter what I sell them at.
Thank you. One less person will be scammed.
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Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2012.01.18 06:12:00 -
[53] - Quote
i got scammed tonight by Industrial Mining 750million hard earned l4 mission isk down the drain
wish i knew about margin trading sooner
at least this scammer has a heart
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Jarnis McPieksu
Aliastra Gallente Federation
214
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Posted - 2012.01.18 06:34:00 -
[54] - Quote
The main reason this scam keeps working is because it presents a bait for the greed that is present in virtually every EVE player - even those cute little newbies that have just gotten their feet wet and are actually accumulating some ISK.
It goes something like this; When you have 200 mil ISK to your name and you do not fully understand the complex market system of EVE, you have an idea that perhaps most have the same problem; making mistakes and bad buy/sell orders because the system appears to be so complex.
You already know enough so that you've made some profitable trades and are confident that the market is a way to make more ISK. While scanning the market for potential trades, there is suddenly a trade, right there, that seems like a sure thing to double your money. Greed takes over and there is an immediate pressure to quickly do some clicks to "make money fast" before someone else notices this "great trading opportunity". There is no time to think and consider the why and, well...
Cue tears.
I would be otherwise perfectly fine with this but it actively does drive away fairly new players from the game that manage to lose most of their net worth when falling for it and the game mechanics themselves appear legit. Unlike your average contract scams in Jita which can be avoided by just reading what you are accepting, margin trading scams appear to be what it says on the tin - the only red flag is the "too good to be true" price which is hard for newbie to see (and even if he'd understand that the price is not right, the obvious assumption is a fat finger when setting up the order or something).
The whole concept that the game could potentially allow you to set a bogus order that can't be completed is impossible to figure out without outside warning. Hence I think CCP should probably stomp on it through changes in game mechanics.
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Anderron Shi
Orb-Disc Industries Ltd New Eden's Industrial Alliance
5
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Posted - 2012.01.18 06:57:00 -
[55] - Quote
Bloody Wench wrote:You're right it's not new, and yet every time it takes less than a day for someone to fall for it. Lol, you can buy 2.7 billion ISK with $100. Why would anyone spend a whole workday trying to scam someone for a Plex's worth in ISK? I mean it happens, so obviously there are reasons...It's just so funny, and sort of sad...I've not been scammed yet, but I'm sure every capsuleer gets scammed in one small way or another eventually..
I mean, sh*t, with all the time these people spend trying to scam people on EVE, they could be on the streets of RL scamming businessmen out of real $$ with stories about trying to get back home, lost jobs, hungry kids, sick wife, etc.
Sorry for my rant, but if I was a scammer, I'd have to look at my life and ask myself....
Umadbro?
Don't mase me bro! |
Tasko Pal
Spallated Garniferous Schist
185
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Posted - 2012.01.18 19:00:00 -
[56] - Quote
Anderron Shi wrote:Bloody Wench wrote:You're right it's not new, and yet every time it takes less than a day for someone to fall for it. Lol, you can buy 2.7 billion ISK with $100. Why would anyone spend a whole workday trying to scam someone for a Plex's worth in ISK?.
Note that the actual effort exerted by the scammer is a few minutes. They can spend the rest of that day doing something else such as what you suggest.
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Shar Tegral
72
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Posted - 2012.01.18 19:49:00 -
[57] - Quote
Anderron Shi wrote:Umadbro? Wow.
So firmly said. So firmly clueless.
Ugotbrainbro?
As Tasko said, the scam in question only takes minutes to setup.
Equally, not everyone who plays the game has excess cash to toss on the game. (I.e. I pay by isk made - What I'd spend to pay for Eve I put into charities.)
Personally, I love the idea that some people toss cash into their poor isk management so that other, probably not advantaged players, can use their brains to pay for their recreation. Not free but it is cashless for one side! |
Anderron Shi
Orb-Disc Industries Ltd New Eden's Industrial Alliance
5
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Posted - 2012.01.19 02:03:00 -
[58] - Quote
Shar Tegral wrote:Anderron Shi wrote:Umadbro? Wow. So firmly said. So firmly clueless. Ugot brainbro? As Tasko said, the scam in question only takes minutes to setup. Equally, not everyone who plays the game has excess cash to toss on the game. (I.e. I pay by isk made - What I'd spend to pay for Eve I put into charities.) Personally, I love the idea that some people toss cash into their poor isk management so that other, probably not advantaged players, can use their brains to pay for their recreation. Not free but it is cashless for one side! yay! Don't mase me bro! |
Tanya Powers
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
784
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Posted - 2012.01.19 09:24:00 -
[59] - Quote
Bloody Wench wrote:I've found a few ways people make life hard or harder when I do one.
Completely ignore the buy/sell prices and continue like nothing has happened. It's annoying but not the end of the world.
EG: if the item is worth 1000 isk generally and I've relisted at 2000 they will not play the game and list new items at 1999.99 but go to something like 1100. This means I have to buy thier items to maintain the artificially high price. This gets expensive fast. They are making 10% while I take on more and more liability.
Import items from an adjacent region if margins permit, and list items somewhere between 1000-1500.
Ignore the margin buy order and continue to buy at the regular price and relisting 10-20% above thier regular purchase price. You can slightly counter the above by placing your own buys in this regard.
The worst though is when there's a large dump by a manufacturer in the order of several days worth of stock at or near the regular sell price. When this happens you either have to go under them meaning your profit is cut substantially or you have to buy them out increasing your liability significantly. Neither of which are desired outcomes.
Undercuters might hurt this as well |
Jienna Sarain
Hedion University Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2012.01.20 12:09:00 -
[60] - Quote
Jarnis McPieksu wrote:The main reason this scam keeps working is because it presents a bait for the greed that is present in virtually every EVE player - even those cute little newbies that have just gotten their feet wet and are actually accumulating some ISK.
In my opinion there's nothing wrong with the games market mechanics.
Human greed tempted by the quick gain of a lot of isk for seemingly small amount of effort is why people fall for the margin trading scams.
It just takes a bit of thought to not fall foul to these tricks, the same with item price manipulation you see every week on various items in Jita etc and of course the contracts that look like your buying something that your not.
It's the tricksters fault but it's your mistake!
Yes, I fell for it once and know of other that have
my 2 cents
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