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Eternum Praetorian
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
871
|
Posted - 2013.01.05 23:57:00 -
[1] - Quote
When people say "duh if you think we are alone in the universe you are stupid" it irks me. These people have spent to much time watching TV and not enough time educating themselves on what exactly it takes to generate intelligent life forms. The amount of time and the unique aligning of countless variables that make the earth as we know it possible.
They also do not seem to understand the difference between a "universe teaming with life" as in non intelligent life, and a "star trek universe" where thinking beings come a dime dozen. It is just as likely that the universe could be teaming with non-intelligent life, and there is no reason to simply presume otherwise absent of all evidence.
So here is a short list of variables that the average nerd, educated or not, does not consider when they blah blah about how stupid people are if they don't think they way that they do.
BEWARE THE WALL OF TEXT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1    ZOMGZOMGZOMG!!!ROLFWAFFLES!!!11111111111111111
1. Star Distribution Within Galaxies
There are stars that contain metals and heavy elements and there are stars that donGÇÖt so much. To make a long story short, galaxies seem to have GÇ£regionsGÇ¥ where the metal baring stars seem to gather farther out (in the arms) and no so much inward (near the bulge)
Ironically, the earth is in this zoneGǪ hmm.
Metal rich stars are younger because they are born of older stars that have died. Supernova is what is thought to make every element bigger then helium, from carbon, to iron and uranium. All of which is needed for you to existGǪyes, even uranium but we will get to that later.
So: the chances of generating a life baring planet is not spread uniformly throughout all stars in a galaxy. The likelihood various widely between regions and ages of stars.
2. Lets Say You Get A Metal Rich Star
The accretion disk must generate a planet within the habitable zone of that star. But that is not the end of the story by far.
I. The Planet Must Have Uranium (and other radio active elements) In ItGÇÖs Core
Radioactivity is what keeps the planets core hot. Without enough of it it will cool like it did in mars and the moon. No heated core and you get no Volcanoes, and no Volcanoes means no atmosphere.
II. The Planet Has To Spin Fast Enough To Create A Magnetic Field
Without a core containing adequate iron, and without a fast enough planetary spin you will get no magnetic field. A magnetic field acts like a force field that protects a planet from the solar wind. Without it, a world can lose itGÇÖs atmosphere like mars or it can lose itGÇÖs light elements like on Venus, leaving only greenhouse gases (generated from Volcanoes) in itGÇÖs place.
Mars died because it does not have enough radioactive elements in itGÇÖs core to stay warm Venus GÇ£diedGÇ¥ because a day lasts a year, and there is no magnetic shield from the solar wind.
So: Even if you do get a world in the habitable zone around the right kind of star by sheer random chance, that planet must also have A. the correct composition in itGÇÖs core and B. The proper rate of rotation.
Oxygen Does Not Occur Naturally
Whether you realize it or not, the Oxygen that you breath is what makes your complex thoughts possible. It is a highly reactive gas and that translates to packets of free energy. Without it you would be limited to alternative forms of energy consumption that are no where near as efficient and that could not support you, as you are.
Do you see how mars is red? That is because of oxygen. Oxygen is so reactive that it will be absorbed by everything. A planet cannot develop an oxygen rich atmosphere naturally, life has to generate it though photosynthesis.
You Need Big Bodies Of Water
This has nothing to do with evolving life, this has to do with the carbon cycle. Rain strips the atmosphere of carbon dioxide and turns it into calcium carbonate. It also hides the carbon inside of the surfaces of rocks. Without the GÇ£Atmosphere Scrubbing RainGÇ¥ we would be looking at a planet, oxygen atmosphere or no, that would have a runaway greenhouse climate. Photosynthesis cannot do the job alone. There must be rain and lots of it.
If the world is to hot, no oceans. If it is to cold, no oceans.
You Are Also Going To Need A Moon
Without a moon the earth world flip on itGÇÖs side as it spins like Mars does. There would be nothing resembling a stable climate and even the length of the days would change without our moon. There would be no hope for a civilization on a planet where the equator became the north pole and visa versa regularly. The climate shifts would be extreme and extreme heat and cold would visit every continent. This wobble would alter the flow of oceans, such as the Gulf Stream, that act as climate control conveyer belts that keep the planets climate in check.
The Moon CanGÇÖt Be To Close Or To Far
To close and the earth becomes a molten planet like Io, do to the heat generated by gravitational tides. To far away and it would stabilize the orbit.
Our Moon Has Not Always Been That Far Away
Our moon used to be allot close, and yes it is though that it heated the earth in such a way long before the dinosaurs existed. Since that time it has been steadily moving way, and eventually it will move so far away that itGÇÖs pull on our earth will lessen and the stabilization that it brings will lessen with it.
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Eternum Praetorian
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
871
|
Posted - 2013.01.05 23:58:00 -
[2] - Quote
Using Earth As A Model, Life Tends To Get Big Not Intelligent At First
It took a multitude of mass extinctions to bring about us. After each mass extinction event life once again became huge eating machines, be it plant eaters of predators. On earth at least, life has exhibited a strong tendency towards being big and hungry, not small and intelligent. So in theory, this could be repeated over and over again on planets stable enough to bear life for a period of billions of years. It never needs to yield an intelligent life form. It is not a given that it should.
And there are more factors involved but this post is getting to longGǪ
 To say that Gǣit is obvious that intelligent life exists out thereGǥ and even that Gǣit is abundantGǥ may be true, but it also, equally, may not be true at all. As the variables necessary for the creation of intelligent life increase though galactic location, age of the host star, position, core composition, carbon cycle, spin, moon, moon size, inevitable extinction events and many moreGǪthe statistical odds become smaller as the necessary target variables increase. Variables that are not being taken into account when people (PHD's included) go blah blah the odds are like this therefore aliens!
Although it is apparent that life has a tendency to spontaneously occur under the right conditions, it is not so obvious that life must yield large quantities of intelligent life and civilizations throughout the universe, given the universes presumed age and presumed size. The one thing does not follow the other as it has been made popular by modern day Sci-Fi literature and movies.
The universe does not have to be teaming with intelligent life at all. It is equally as possible, from our vantage point, that we are a rarity. Not necessarily unique in the universe, but rare in the universe.
Both is equally as possible from our vantage point and one is NOT more likely then the other. Welcome to real science.
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Eternum Praetorian
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
871
|
Posted - 2013.01.05 23:58:00 -
[3] - Quote
Reserved,
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Kitty Bear
Disturbed Friends Of Diazepam Disturbed Acquaintance
508
|
Posted - 2013.01.06 00:25:00 -
[4] - Quote
Life as it exists on earth today is a result of geophysical, astrological, chemical and several other different types of natural science "luck"
There is no proof of anything I believe, as that proof is currently unobtainable.
There are Billions of galaxies within the visible universe Each galaxy has billions to trillions of stars each star has the potential to support a planetary system.
Even using conservative laws of average and estimation, you are going to get the possiblility, of the correct conditions for life in more than 1 solar system, get enough of those and you increase the chance of intelligent life developing.
I think basic life will be far more pervasive than people currently consider it to be. Hydrothermic Vents fly in the face of a soler-driven macroverse, but at one time the sun was considered the ONLY source of energy to drive life, there is no sunshine on the ocean seabeds where the hydrothermal vents are, but theres still life there.
TL, DR We don't know **** & need to learn moar! |

Ion Crux
NERV Reborn The Predictables
20
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Posted - 2013.01.06 01:27:00 -
[5] - Quote
I do believe there is more life out there. Yes i get what you're saying but how unlike the it would be there is still a chance that there is something\some one out there......We made it. |

AlleyKat
The Unwanted.
812
|
Posted - 2013.01.06 01:40:00 -
[6] - Quote
There is also the incredibly high possibility that intelligent life once existed on other planets in our galaxy that came together to form a magnificent Empire which killed each other off several billion years before you were winked into existence behind the waste bins of the local niteclub.
Roll the dice. GÇ£You go into combat, and itGÇÖs NOT going to be WagnerGǪindustrial techno or really hard drum and bassGÇ¥ Reynir Hardarson, founding member of CCP Games, 2002. |

AlleyKat
The Unwanted.
812
|
Posted - 2013.01.06 01:41:00 -
[7] - Quote
dupe GÇ£You go into combat, and itGÇÖs NOT going to be WagnerGǪindustrial techno or really hard drum and bassGÇ¥ Reynir Hardarson, founding member of CCP Games, 2002. |

Surfin's PlunderBunny
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
6132
|
Posted - 2013.01.06 02:48:00 -
[8] - Quote
Image from the Hubble
that was aiming in 1 spot in the sky (a tiny spot between some stars that appeared to be blank). They saw 10,000 galaxies... each shiny spot is a galaxy, each galaxy contains about 10 billion stars, each star has the potential to have a solar system.
I'd say probability is working against the op on this one  "Little ginger moron" ~David Hasselhoff-á |

Alice Klein
12
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Posted - 2013.01.06 03:15:00 -
[9] - Quote
last time i checked our galaxy had 100 to 150 billion stars.
i dunno what other galaxies contain but obviously your 10 billion and some other post mentioning trillions is completely made up! |

Surfin's PlunderBunny
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
6132
|
Posted - 2013.01.06 03:29:00 -
[10] - Quote
Alice Klein wrote:last time i checked our galaxy had 100 to 150 billion stars.
i dunno what other galaxies contain but obviously your 10 billion and some other post mentioning trillions is completely made up!
LIES! I read it somewhere on the interwebs, that means it's automatically true  "Little ginger moron" ~David Hasselhoff-á |

Eternum Praetorian
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
872
|
Posted - 2013.01.06 15:07:00 -
[11] - Quote
AlleyKat wrote:There is also the incredibly high possibility that intelligent life once existed on other planets in our galaxy that came together to form a magnificent Empire which killed each other off several billion years before you were winked into existence behind the waste bins of the local niteclub.
Roll the dice.
It is also possible that Aurthur C Clark had a vision like the ancient Hindu Yogi's who claimed to have seen Vishnu during deep meditation, and Mr. Clark caught onto the real truth that a geometric monolith is the preferred form of god. He then made 2001 the space odyssey.
Roll the dice. Dup.
Imagination outside of any evidence can be fun!
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Eternum Praetorian
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
872
|
Posted - 2013.01.06 15:11:00 -
[12] - Quote
Surfin's PlunderBunny wrote:Image from the Hubblethat was aiming in 1 spot in the sky (a tiny spot between some stars that appeared to be blank). They saw 10,000 galaxies... each shiny spot is a galaxy, each galaxy contains about 10 billion stars, each star has the potential to have a solar system. I'd say probability is working against the op on this one 
And....
That is variable 1 being calculated. That is the entire point of my op. 1 requirement vs that amount of stars in 14b years of time is easy enough to come by, but now do the rest of the math for us!
Akita taught me that if you flipped a coin every second it would take far longer then the entire age of the universe to become reasonably certain of flipping 100 heads in a row. How do you think that compares to all of the variables needed to randomly generate the DNA of an intelligent life form?
You better start flipping!
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Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Operations
3283
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Posted - 2013.01.06 15:38:00 -
[13] - Quote
Kitty Bear wrote:
There is no proof of anything I believe, as that proof is currently unobtainable.
This. Also, OP argument is flawed from the outset with determining what is meant exactly by 'common' ? GÇ£Be yourself; everyone else is already taken.GÇ¥ GÇò Oscar Wilde |

Eternum Praetorian
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
872
|
Posted - 2013.01.06 15:48:00 -
[14] - Quote
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:Kitty Bear wrote:
There is no proof of anything I believe, as that proof is currently unobtainable.
This. Also, OP argument is flawed from the outset with determining what is meant exactly by 'common' ?
Awesome, now we get to do some classical philosophical nit picking with regards to definitions of commonly understood words. Do tell dear Krixtal, what alternate definition of the word "common" shall we entertain? I will be happy to better define the commonsense usage of such a term, following your elaboration. Afterward we will determine once and for all the meaning of "truth" 
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Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Operations
3284
|
Posted - 2013.01.06 16:10:00 -
[15] - Quote
Chances of organic life are very high. We find organic compounds almost everywhere we seem to look out there.
Chances of intelligent life, much less so.
Also, there is the chance that in some cases we may not even recognize it for what it is.
Although I personally believe we will eventually find some life out there at least, whether or not it is found period is the important question that must be pursued before we get to the discussion of it's commonality.
That's all I meant, and no harshing implied. GÇ£Be yourself; everyone else is already taken.GÇ¥ GÇò Oscar Wilde |

Eternum Praetorian
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
873
|
Posted - 2013.01.06 16:12:00 -
[16] - Quote
understood... and agreed 
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stoicfaux
2195
|
Posted - 2013.01.06 16:52:00 -
[17] - Quote
FTL Travel. If practical FTL travel existed, it would only take one civilization to spam itself across the stars. (Imagine if Humanity had "warp engines" for a million years.) Since we don't see other civilizations, practical FTL travel isn't possible, thus Humanity is limited to our solar system and will eventually go extinct here.
/deep_thoughts |

Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Operations
3284
|
Posted - 2013.01.06 16:57:00 -
[18] - Quote
stoicfaux wrote:FTL Travel. If practical FTL travel existed, it would only take one civilization to spam itself across the stars. (Imagine if Humanity had "warp engines" for a million years.) Since we don't see other civilizations, practical FTL travel isn't possible, thus Humanity is limited to our solar system and will eventually go extinct here.
/deep_thoughts
Wormholes could work if we have the technology to somehow control them. It's pretty far off in the future but personally I cannot discount the possibility.
Also, many things like neutrinos and tachyons go faster than light, so it is possible.
edit: there may be a method of instantaneous travel we have not even conceived of yet. "Travel" may not even need to be involved. GÇ£Be yourself; everyone else is already taken.GÇ¥ GÇò Oscar Wilde |

AlleyKat
The Unwanted.
812
|
Posted - 2013.01.06 17:44:00 -
[19] - Quote
Eternum Praetorian wrote:He then made 2001 the space odyssey.
No; he then wrote a short story called 'The Sentinel'.
My point stands - intelligent Empires could have risen and fallen through self-destruction across the entire cosmos long before our existence and looking for intelligent life is just as futile because of this.
I do not believe in space exploration, I believe in self-exploration.
Without an understanding of who we are, we have no place to visit someone else's house and bestow wisdom we do not posses. No more than we have the right to disturb an ancient tribe living in the amazon basin and tell them we are superior when we resolve differences through war and oppression.
If aliens do exist, and I suspect they do or have, the reason we haven't seen them on a global 'Hello' scale is because we are child-like savages to them.
Our descendants are going to mock us and call us pathetic losers that nearly wiped ourselves out multiple times and practically destroyed the planet from all recognition.
That is, if we have descendants of course.
So yes, I agree with you - things like space exploration should be left to the imagination as sci-fi writers should be the only ones looking in that direction, all other thoughts should be towards making the world better. This means that when sci-fi is no longer sci-fi, perhaps we will be ready.
AK GÇ£You go into combat, and itGÇÖs NOT going to be WagnerGǪindustrial techno or really hard drum and bassGÇ¥ Reynir Hardarson, founding member of CCP Games, 2002. |

Alpheias
Euphoria Released Verge of Collapse
1835
|
Posted - 2013.01.06 18:07:00 -
[20] - Quote
I find the whole model laughable because OP only establishes what we already know what conditions were required to give carbon based life, as we currently know it, a chance on this planet.
Looking to establish some kind of universal model for alien worlds with different conditions for extraterrestrial life is frankly deluded. Star Trek much OP? :p
While we are on the subject; define intelligent life for me? Because I see signs of intelligence in nature, like chimps using tools or dolphins using ingenious ways of catching fish and plenty of people displaying nothing that could be ever defined as intelligent. Allow me to be frank. You will not like me. You will not like me now, and you will not like men++ a good deal less as we go on. |

Fish Alabel
A Big Enough Lever
14
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Posted - 2013.01.06 18:18:00 -
[21] - Quote
op i don't think you get how it works. yes it's exstremly unlikely that a planet will have life but there are 10 of billions of trillions of billions of stars with planets in orbit so it's very unlikely that we are alone. |

Shalia Ripper
284
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Posted - 2013.01.06 18:20:00 -
[22] - Quote
Just remember that you're standing on a planet that's evolving And revolving at nine hundred miles an hour, That's orbiting at nineteen miles a second, so it's reckoned, A sun that is the source of all our power. The sun and you and me and all the stars that we can see Are moving at a million miles a day In an outer spiral arm, at forty thousand miles an hour, Of the galaxy we call the 'Milky Way'. Our galaxy itself contains a hundred billion stars. It's a hundred thousand light years side to side. It bulges in the middle, sixteen thousand light years thick, But out by us, it's just three thousand light years wide. We're thirty thousand light years from galactic central point. We go 'round every two hundred million years, And our galaxy is only one of millions of billions In this amazing and expanding universe.
The universe itself keeps on expanding and expanding In all of the directions it can whizz As fast as it can go, at the speed of light, you know, Twelve million miles a minute, and that's the fastest speed there is. So remember, when you're feeling very small and insecure, How amazingly unlikely is your birth, And pray that there's intelligent life somewhere up in space, 'Cause there's bugger all down here on Earth.
http://vimeo.com/1350717 Why can't I just delete my signature CCP? WHYYYYYYY?
Signatures have consequences - Malcanis
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Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Operations
3284
|
Posted - 2013.01.06 18:41:00 -
[23] - Quote
Shalia Ripper wrote:Just remember that you're standing on a planet that's evolving And revolving at nine hundred miles an hour, That's orbiting at nineteen miles a second, so it's reckoned, A sun that is the source of all our power. The sun and you and me and all the stars that we can see Are moving at a million miles a day In an outer spiral arm, at forty thousand miles an hour, Of the galaxy we call the 'Milky Way'. Our galaxy itself contains a hundred billion stars. It's a hundred thousand light years side to side. It bulges in the middle, sixteen thousand light years thick, But out by us, it's just three thousand light years wide. We're thirty thousand light years from galactic central point. We go 'round every two hundred million years, And our galaxy is only one of millions of billions In this amazing and expanding universe. The universe itself keeps on expanding and expanding In all of the directions it can whizz As fast as it can go, at the speed of light, you know, Twelve million miles a minute, and that's the fastest speed there is. So remember, when you're feeling very small and insecure, How amazingly unlikely is your birth, And pray that there's intelligent life somewhere up in space, 'Cause there's bugger all down here on Earth. http://vimeo.com/1350717
Great. Now it's gonna take another 30 years to get that tune out of my head again.
GÇ£Be yourself; everyone else is already taken.GÇ¥ GÇò Oscar Wilde |

Eurydia Vespasian
Nova Insula Mining and Industrial
425
|
Posted - 2013.01.06 21:00:00 -
[24] - Quote
Alpheias wrote:I find the whole model laughable because OP only establishes what we already know what conditions were required to give carbon based life, as we currently know it, a chance on this planet.
^this.
there is no reason to assume the way we evolved and out of what elements we evolved from are the end all, be all of the way life, intelligent or otherwise, can come into being elsewhere in the universe.
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Grimpak
Midnight Elites Echelon Rising
690
|
Posted - 2013.01.06 21:32:00 -
[25] - Quote
Alpheias wrote:I find the whole model laughable because OP only establishes what we already know what conditions were required to give carbon based life, as we currently know it, a chance on this planet.
this really. what if it's a silica-based lifeform that breathes nitrogen and proliferates in ammonia-rich environments? what if it's a lifeform that lives in an environment with 10 G's of gravity, or extreme atmospheric pressures?
it's all in the eye of the beholder. what one must know is, if you find intelligent life, prepare to be surprised, because it might not even have eyes, legs, arms or even mouths. it might even be a blob that breathes sulphur and communicates thru telepathy or any other type of communication method we don't know, nor even dream about. [img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]
[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right |

Lukas Flamesword
Hessian Public Relations Department
19
|
Posted - 2013.01.06 21:40:00 -
[26] - Quote
i actually read something that a guy calculated that there will be about 50 solar systems (out of 1 billion) in the milky way that can host intelligent (not considering that the people have colonized other systems) and many of them might have lower tech. |

Eternum Praetorian
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
873
|
Posted - 2013.01.06 22:44:00 -
[27] - Quote
Alpheias wrote:I find the whole model laughable because OP only establishes what we already know what conditions were required to give carbon based life, as we currently know it, a chance on this planet.
Looking to establish some kind of universal model for alien worlds with different conditions for extraterrestrial life is frankly deluded.
The stuff that makes us seems to occur naturally in space, everywhere and no planet is needed. Why are you presuming that the source of life as we know it is not the norm for life in the universe? You are using your creativity again instead of looking at what facts we have at our disposal.
That kind of behavior I find laughable.
Alpheias wrote: While we are on the subject; define intelligent life for me? Because I see signs of intelligence in nature, like chimps using tools or dolphins using ingenious ways of catching fish and plenty of people displaying nothing that could be ever defined as intelligent.
You may be the first person to suggest that when we look up to the stars and ask "is there anyone out there?" we are some how talking about monkeys. You get an A+ for creative ridiculousness and debate technique. But... no. Srsly. lol.
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Eternum Praetorian
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
873
|
Posted - 2013.01.06 22:46:00 -
[28] - Quote
Lukas Flamesword wrote:i actually read something that a guy calculated that there will be about 50 solar systems (out of 1 billion) in the milky way that can host intelligent (not considering that the people have colonized other systems) and many of them might have lower tech.
I mentioned this. He did not take into account all of the variables, and so it was a value pulled completely out of his ass. It has about the same worth as underwear lint, except it is worth even less because if you were lost in the woods at least you can start a fire with underwear lint. His hypothesis won't even save you in the wild.
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Eternum Praetorian
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
873
|
Posted - 2013.01.06 22:58:00 -
[29] - Quote
Grimpak wrote:it's all in the eye of the beholder. what one must know is, if you find intelligent life, prepare to be surprised, because it might not even have eyes, legs, arms or even mouths. it might even be a blob that breathes sulphur and communicates thru telepathy or any other type of communication method we don't know, nor even dream about.
Inventive... but again... No. Allow me to shed some reality on this.
Earth began as a planet that hosted a variety of primordial life forms that would seem very alien in our modern age. You can see them in the ponds of Yellowstone and in sea floor magma vents. They metabolized things that we would consider toxic, and some of them have metabolic processes that until recently, science thought was impossible.
All of these life forms were phased out by life forms that utilized the sun as an energy source. It was much more plentiful and much more abundant then any other form of consumption, and the by product was oxygen. Oxygen is extremely toxic to the predecessors of photosynthesis, and as they became more successful everything else was poisoned, replaced and died out.
Neither Can Generate Intelligence
"Sulfur breathers" for lack of a better term would not have enough energy to support complex biological processes that involve high energy. Photosynthesis also, is not high enough energy to support intelligence.
Oxygen is key.
Oxygen is free energy. It is a highly reactive gas that allows us to monopolize on the reactivity of said gas. It is that energy that allows us to burn the fuel required for complex thought and complex biological processes. So before you go spouting how "other beings can breath "insert randomness" consider what you are actually saying. Does said gas have enough raw reactive energy to be as effective as oxygen in the first place? Do you even know how many gases, if any, can be used in place of oxygen?
Or are you just letting your creativity run away with you like so many others that came before you? That is probably the case since you mentioned alien telepathy in a discussion about the likelihood of intelligent life vs non-intelligent life occurring in the universe.
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Bane Necran
Appono Astos
1407
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Posted - 2013.01.06 23:45:00 -
[30] - Quote
You might find this interesting. "The nice thing about quotes is that they give us a nodding acquaintance with the originator which is often socially impressive." ~Kenneth Williams |
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