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Caya
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Posted - 2005.06.14 12:21:00 -
[1]
I want to start this thread for people to comment new ECM system. It has been here for some time now and i think many experiments and combat test were done. I am quite surprise, nobody started one like this. Does it mean everyone is satisfied?
I personally think the system is completely bugged or definitely not as it was ment to be. Of course, i may be wrong ;-) But what makes me think that:
We did some experiments with the chance for jamming.
Attacker is using anti-radar jammer (strength with skill cca 8.6). Malediction with radar strength 12 was jammed with 80% chance. Malediction with 1 radar ECCM (total strength 16+) ...75% chance. Malediction with 2x radar eccm (radar 20+) ... 75% chance. Tests were made 20-40 times.
Now, lets look at Omni ECCM. Malediction with single Omni (16,4,4,4 sensor strength) and chance to jam dropped rapidly to 50%.
Experience from combat shows that its easy to jam even Scorpion with anti-radar jammer. Thats 2.8 vs 24. Theory says the chance should be a bit over 10% but practice is a bit different.
As it works now, frig duels can be only about who jamms the other one first.
In original TomB's report about EW changed there was a note about jamming a lot harder than scrambling cause scrambling does not prevent ship from fighting. What is the point of other EW systems when jamming rules them all.
Comments please?
And excuse typos and english grammar mistakes pelase :-).
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Monty Tomasi
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Posted - 2005.06.14 14:26:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Monty Tomasi on 14/06/2005 14:26:44
 Originally by: Caya
As it works now, frig duels can be only about who jamms the other one first.
Does this comment scale to larger engagements as well? In other words, in fleet engagements has it become a case of "he who jams first, wins"?
Yours,
Monty
edit: spelling
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Hakera
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Posted - 2005.06.14 15:01:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Caya
Attacker is using anti-radar jammer (strength with skill cca 8.6). Malediction with radar strength 12 was jammed with 80% chance. Malediction with 1 radar ECCM (total strength 16+) ...75% chance. Malediction with 2x radar eccm (radar 20+) ... 75% chance. Tests were made 20-40 times.
Now, lets look at Omni ECCM. Malediction with single Omni (16,4,4,4 sensor strength) and chance to jam dropped rapidly to 50%.
those figures are about as expected (ew str/target str), the omni eccm is a very useful mod in many circumstances as is increasing a sensor strength not typical to your ship, for eg, 2*ladar eccm on your apoc, whilst it will have an effect on racial jammers, not so much on multi's if they are successful.
EW is more versitile now as we have all realised in our little skirmishes, with even Amarr ships now equipping the odd or full rack of jamming. However in my experience, jamming can go very badly and there have been amny close battles where on my jamming setups, the jamming failed all times. Frig vs frig is different, 1 jammer is extremely powerful in frig duels.
I did suggest ages ago that ECCM strength may need a boost, as it stands they make marginal difference as they do not provide absolute protection anymore but neither can we arrive at a point again where they would.
I wouldn't mind a 25-50% boost to eccm, i believe you will get more value out of using up a med/low slot then for eccm.
Dumbledore - Eve-I.com |
Riddari
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Posted - 2005.06.14 15:14:00 -
[4]
ECCM modules need de-nerfing badly.
A t2 ECCM is only 2.4 strength while a t1 is 2.0
Adding an ECCM module only improves your resiliance against jamming by a tiny fraction. A +1 to all sensors (multi lowslot) is so pathetically weak it's not funny.
¼©¼
a history |
Caya
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Posted - 2005.06.14 15:22:00 -
[5]
I am only wondering about the math here.
8.6 jamming strength vs 20 sensor strength = cca 40% chance to jam. well, that is as it should be (if original thread about EW was true). But it is definitely not 40%.
Also one omni eccm should make ship almost resistant to jamming with racial jammer. theoreticaly though. if the ECM has to break sensor strength of all 4 classes, that is.
But as Hakera mentioned, these changes brought nice setup variations even for amarr ship, and it has been very visible in our recent engagements. ;-)
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Caya
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Posted - 2005.06.15 14:29:00 -
[6]
TBH i was expecting a bit more reactions to this. This looks like no1 is using ECM. Is there really no1 who made tests like me?
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Gaius Kador
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Posted - 2005.06.16 00:34:00 -
[7]
I have, and agree that ECCM needs lovin ;)
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Hakera
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Posted - 2005.06.16 16:36:00 -
[8]
yes, this does need more attention.
Dumbledore - Eve-I.com |
Grizwold
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Posted - 2005.06.16 19:42:00 -
[9]
ECCM is basically useless atm. I did tests with 3 racial ECCM on my scorp and it made basically no difference to being jammed.
Re jamming, I have had battles with tech2 multis where i got success in 4 strait cycles vs a BS and easily killed it. I had other matches where I was lucky to have it jam in 1 out of 3 cycles.
I have actually had better luck with multi than the racial which is strange but...
I would be interested to know if the math is actually true re what the mods are doing..i.e. I know the stats say they rate as x points, but in the number crunching within the game code, is that data correct or input incorrectly?
It really is a roll of the dice, I just am not sure the numbers are right tbh.
Does make combat interesting though lol
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Hooded Claw
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Posted - 2005.06.16 23:29:00 -
[10]
Agreed atm the best ECCM is jamming first, what i would like to see was perhaps somekind of manual targetting...etc. pointing your big guns at that big target at close range shouldent need a lock........just reduced accuracy......of.c hipshooting a frigate with a tachyon should be impossible........also why does jamming affect nosferatus/neutralizers, Tracking disruptors....
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Golan Trevize
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Posted - 2005.06.16 23:34:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Golan Trevize on 16/06/2005 23:35:08
Agreed atm the best ECCM is jamming first, what i would like to see was perhaps somekind of manual targetting...etc. pointing your big guns at that big target at close range shouldent need a lock........just reduced accuracy......ofc. hipshooting a frigate with a tachyon should be impossible........also why does jamming affect nosferatus/neutralizers, Tracking disruptors....
And why does jamming affect your ability to target other ships when most of the other ECM does not........
And why is there no effective missile decoys like a chaff disperser/Phalanx system there is ofc. defenders but many ships cannot afford that luxury... ??
The Gallente ideals of Freedom, Liberty and Equality will be met by the Amarr realities of Lasers, Armor and Battleships. |
Gaius Kador
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Posted - 2005.06.17 02:16:00 -
[12]
Hows the hauling scne, old golanatos??
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Golan Trevize
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Posted - 2005.06.17 08:02:00 -
[13]
Spacetrucking is sweet 
The Gallente ideals of Freedom, Liberty and Equality will be met by the Amarr realities of Lasers, Armor and Battleships. |
Sanaen Eydanwadh
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Posted - 2005.06.17 10:54:00 -
[14]
just to add one more "signed": yes, ECCM are almost completely useless now. We did some testing one more time a few days ago with a corpmate who still hoped for something with these modules, and they are definitely pathetic.
I'm quite fine with the "new" ECM mechanics, even if the fact that pure luck ruling many battles is quite disturbing, but ECCM would need a real boost to be usefull again; maybe a simple x2 to their bonusses (or so) would be hard to balance, and could be replaced with a shortened jamming time? (just a random idea, but the jamming cycles are really long, a way to take control back during them would be interesting)
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Sforza
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Posted - 2005.06.17 12:24:00 -
[15]
Supersigned!
ECCM's need a massive boost, and right now.
Sforza
CEO - Vronsky Brothers and Sons
Council Member - Ushra'Khan |
Caya
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Posted - 2005.06.17 15:23:00 -
[16]
i still dont think its problem of ECCM modules only. I see the problem in the mechanic of generating chance to jam. There must be problem somewhere else when anti-minmatar jammer can jam Scorpion(24) or Purifir (18) in almost every seccond attempt.
oh and from the origin of posters, it seems that jamming is used by CVA and UK only.
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Blind Fear
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Posted - 2005.06.17 16:30:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Caya
As it works now, frig duels can be only about who jamms the other one first.
With the cap use of EW, and the fact that it sucks down a midslot that you need to hold someone in place, the only frigs I can possibly forsee using EW effectively in frig duels are the 3 and 4 midslot Assault Frigs.
The massive nerfbatting of backup arrays is fun though, I wonder why people always try to fight outside of EW range now. There is no possible way that the two are connected in any manner.
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Dionysus Davinci
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Posted - 2005.06.17 16:50:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Dionysus Davinci on 17/06/2005 16:53:29
Please to be signing thread that ECCM and Backup arrays are ******* useless. Let us not even forget about the cpu usage for a useless mod that at least takes 2 to see ****ty results.
As it stands now, whoever has the most mids and faster lock wins.
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Ronin Woman
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Posted - 2005.06.22 18:24:00 -
[19]
Battles rarely last long enough for counter measures to be as effective as say... harsh language. |
Shirei
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Posted - 2005.06.22 18:31:00 -
[20]
Yes, for some reason ECM is not very popular currently, although it can be incredibly effective - especially if you don't put the jammers on pure EW ships, which will be targetted first and die in seconds, but put racial jammers into the few spare mid slots of damage dealers (which are occupied mostly by tracking computers currently).
ECCM is also pretty useless right now and should be boosted IMO.
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