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Dev Larren
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Posted - 2005.06.15 22:30:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Dev Larren on 15/06/2005 22:36:19
Edited by: Dev Larren on 15/06/2005 22:32:26
I am quite interested in the little hornet's nest my quote - which has been used to originate this thead - has stirred up.
I approach this with the smile of one who enjoys the privilege of being vindicated by events but also with the discomfort of being right in predicting a tragedy. It is enjoyable to read the illogical ramblings of those who ultimately - come on admit it - know they are wrong but are too proud to abandon their entrenched starting position.
Let me start a discussion of logic and law based on our common heritage whatever your bloodline.
Let us consider the idea that someone in this affair is guilty of a crime.
All guilt is based on mens rea which for those who do not understand the ancient languages means "the gulity mind." It refers to intent. What was the intent when the act was committed? If the intent matches the outcome in terms of the crime committed then the party is guilty. This is simple logic that goes beyond individual prejudice.
CAIN is guilty of killing Dr Hnolku. I am prepared to admit that and a logical examination of facts supports it. We sought to avoid it - as the public record will show - but our mens rea was to stop Dr Hnolku and we must bear the guilt.
What of subsequent events? Who bears guilt in the death cause by the Blood Raider actions?
CAIN sought - and as CO I can confirm this was our primary mission - to stop Dr Hnolku's agent falling into any hands because of the danger it presented. This is a matter of public record for anyone who wishes to pursue it. In terms of mens rea we are free from guilt as subsequent events were exactly what we sought to avoid. At best our enemies can accuse us of negligence (but a charge I would still protest) but in terms of pure logic we can be accorded no guilt.
The H'K alliance sought to make the agent available and active. Subsequent events have seen that happen. What they actively sought has happened. Mens rea exists in this case and therefore they are open to accusations of guilt. They can defend themselves as is their entitlement but pure logic demonstrates that they have a case to answer.
To summarise:
Any action taken by CAIN that resulted in a sequence of events (and this i would deny) that led to the tragedy at Mabnen can at most be called negligence. There is no guilt.
Any action taken by the H'K alliance that resulted in the events at Mabnen is a question of guilt. The outcome matched their intent. Even if they did not intend it to be "quite like that" they are guilty becase of the original mens rea.
I would ask that any reply to this argument match my standards of legal argument and logic rather than some simplistic "we are right and you are wrong" statement.
Commanding Officer
Channel: CAINCOM |
Dev Larren
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Posted - 2005.06.16 06:14:00 -
[2]
 Originally by: Herko Kerghans
This "intention" rubbish sounds so Gallente I'm sure you were under so kind of intoxicating effect while writing it...
But don't hide behind contorted arguments. That is not the Caldari way.
I resent your slander against my race suggesting they are not capable of reasoned argument! Please, if you don't understand something refrain from personal insults. It is so base.
Commanding Officer
Channel: CAINCOM |
Dev Larren
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Posted - 2005.06.16 06:51:00 -
[3]
You got the legal argument (sorry I asumed that you were the sort of person who uses the tactic of insult when they fail to comprehend the point) but you are mistaken about "our" race. I assumed you had disowned your bloodline given the crass statement you made about us being incapable of reasoned debate.
In any case I am not going to get into a "I'm a better Cladari than you" slanging match. Everyone has their own prejudice about identity and nationality. It is a pointless argument. Instead I stand by my actions and the actions of my pilots in the service of our State.
Although you must admit that it is amusing that I have one small group accusing me of being the head of a bunch of Caldari extremists and fanatics where-as you are now accusing me of having devolved into a Gallante. Most amusing.
Commanding Officer
Channel: CAINCOM |
Dev Larren
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Posted - 2005.06.16 19:04:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Khaldorn Murino
We have made you pay for the death of the doctor.
Hmmm... despite my preference for this distracting war to end as an utilitarian CEO I would see it differently.
My pilots are recording more kills in terms of total "tonnage" than our losses. My pilots are getting invaluable experience. Morale is high. Our increased profile has been good for recruitment. We are even receiving private donations from loyal Caldari who seek to support the cause with their isk.
Please could you send me a personal message to tell me when you think we might start to "pay."
However in all seriousness the main problem with the U'K war is that it was made without a clear goal. That is poor leadership and betrays their many fine pilots.
They can choose to continue it out of pride or do the more honourable thing that benefits their own cause and also stops them rendering indirect assistance to the Blood Raiders.
Commanding Officer
Channel: CAINCOM |
Dev Larren
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Posted - 2005.06.16 22:28:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Witch Doctor
Lastly, we have great tales of the "tonnage" destroyed by CAIN, and how that is somehow indicative of strategic success. CAIN forces are frequently driven to cower in remote corners of prime Caldari space by even the smallest sortie of U'K ships
Excuse us for being an intelligent enemy. My time at the SWA was not wasted. I studied hard and know how to conduct a war. I know not to let the enemy choose the conditions of a battle. This is why we have been so succesful despite being outnumbered in this conflict.
When the enemy is weak attack, when they are strong retreat.
This is basic military theory. I have a good reading list I am willing to share with you if you would like to learn more.
Given that our war is now soon to be over I have a long list of basic strategic faults committed by the U'K alliance leadership in their pursuit of war against us. Your pilots were usually good tacticians on the battlefield but your strategic leadership is very weak.
For a fee I am willing to provide you with a critique. It also seems fair given that we did learn many good tactical lessons from your pilots.
Commanding Officer
Channel: CAINCOM |
Dev Larren
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Posted - 2005.06.18 09:20:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Dev Larren on 18/06/2005 09:27:47
You make a good point about low-sec Cladari Space. I will have to reflect on that one. My manner is not generated by arrogance but was merely a straight-forward observation about the conduct of war. Obviously I do not want to tell my enemy how to improve their strategic thinking while we are in a state of war (for a few more hours) but there will be no harm in telling you that only a foolish leaderships thinks it is incapable of making mistakes and only complete imbeciles think they have nothing to learn from their enemy. One of your other major faults in your stratgeic thinking is restated in your very message... but you will have to work that one out.
You need to review the timeline in how events transpired as that reflects whether the right decision was made. No-one knew what the Blood Raiders had at the time. What we did know is that U'K members had threatened to use the agent in exactly the way it would subsequently be used at Mabnen I.
Fortunately for many Minmatar and Amarr lives we stopped that happening but it was unforseen by all at the time that the Blod Raiders had already gained the insorium. In fact their press releases suggested they still wanted to lure Dr Hnolku to them. Again CAIN made the logical and sensible decision based on events at the time.
We can all sit back with our knowledge of how things turned out and make "what if..." scenerios and , in the case of the U'K alliance, reinvent the historical record about what you were planning. Before events unfolded U'K publicly stated it wanted to commit a Mabnen incident if you could just get the insorum. Now that you see the consequences U'K has flip-flopped.
CAIN was analytical and logical at the time and we stand by our actions. We will stand applauded or condemned for what we did. Unlike U'K we will not seek to reinvent the record and flip-flop on our position.
Commanding Officer
Channel: CAINCOM |
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