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Lynn Kyle
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Posted - 2005.06.20 20:23:00 -
[1]
Ore theves are an anoying part of the game. Here are some suggestions to allow miners to combat them:
1. Make ore thieves lose security rating by stealing (maybe base the security rating loss on the value of the ore stolen).
2. Permit pod killing of ore theives with zero security rating loss.
3. Add mines to the game. Have two ranges for the mine; a warning range where ships receive a warning about a mine in the area and a detonation range where a ship needs to enter a password or the mine explodes. Mines would have to be area effect and do large enough damage to be of use (say 300+, maybe have different size mines). To prevent excessive mining of an area, limit the maximum number of active mines a player could have by a skill level (perhaps anchoring or a new skill: mine laying). Also, have mines decay over time (perhaps as long as 1 day or as short as 30 min).
4. Exploding cans. Combine a mine with a can. If someone tries to open the can and fails to enter the password, the can explodes. Again, a large damage amount would be required to make this worthwhile (say 300+, maybe have different sizes). These would not need to decay over time and probably would not need to be limited in number.
5. I don't see CCP ever implementing this, but it would be the best of all solutions: a death can. If a person fails to enter the correct password when opening this can, their account skill points are reset to their starting values. This would serve as an excellent and appropriate curb on ore theft.
Number 4 would be a nice solution, 3 would be interesting, but I can see it having serious side-effects.
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Artemis duLac
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Posted - 2005.06.20 21:59:00 -
[2]
Sadly, CCP seem to consider ore theft as a "valid play style". There isn't a day that passes without someone suggesting a method (some reasonable, some not) to help cut down on ore theft, allow the victim an avenue for retribution etc.
Until CCP wake up and realise that there are more people wanting ore theft out than there are wanting ore theft in, you're wasting your breath :(
Arte
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Deja Thoris
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Posted - 2005.06.20 22:24:00 -
[3]
When looking at ideas think about "what if"?
What if someone enters the wrong password? Under number 5 someone would be buggered.
Therefore your idea sucks because dev's have to take all sides of something into account.
Why dont you stop being lazy and go and mine slightly off the highway systems where you NEVER see ore thieves?
Go look in Crime and punishment. Theres an idiot proof guide to this stuff.
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Daniel Jackson
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Posted - 2005.06.20 22:26:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Daniel Jackson on 20/06/2005 22:27:06
what i think is that the kinda get the basic idea its just they probly dont know how to code it etc or what ever to make it happen, so if yall actualy help with the math or tell how it works in every bit of tiny micro detail and then that should make them actualy KNOW how to fix that prob.
Caldari will once again rise above the gallente and take back Caldari prime!
Image done by Denrace |
Artemis duLac
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Posted - 2005.06.20 23:02:00 -
[5]
Daniel, CCP have some pretty talented programmers, just look at the game we play and begin to imagine the complexity of the code that runs it! In addition there have been enough posts in here suggesting ways of reducing ore theft without requiring substantial programming changes. I for one do not believe that CCP lack the expertise to reduce ore theft.
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Lynn Kyle
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Posted - 2005.06.21 00:03:00 -
[6]
 Originally by: Deja Thoris
When looking at ideas think about "what if"?
What if someone enters the wrong password? Under number 5 someone would be buggered.
Therefore your idea sucks because dev's have to take all sides of something into account.
Why dont you stop being lazy and go and mine slightly off the highway systems where you NEVER see ore thieves?
Go look in Crime and punishment. Theres an idiot proof guide to this stuff.
If someone can't remember the password that they created (they can take notes in game) then they should not use an exploding can.
Only a goofball would forget the password. For careless users, all the user to set the explode threshold (the number of bad password attempts before exploding).
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Ajunta LEE
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Posted - 2005.06.21 02:46:00 -
[7]
i like threads on ore thieving, typically there is a carebear that comes up with an idea that has been developped in all the possible fashion 120 before during the past year.
while ccp already implemented a lot of stuff to make ore thieving less profitable you guys want the possibility to smoke thieves.
it is like you wanted death penalty for people who rob an apple on shelves or run away with your purse.
first it is not right, second you should make your purse more difficult to reach.
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Xian
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Posted - 2005.06.21 02:52:00 -
[8]
use Secure Containers dude that helps !
I like your Style ,but do u like mine?!
Member of [G] Alliance |
Bowcaster
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Posted - 2005.06.21 05:49:00 -
[9]
A giant secure can is a joke. And ccp won't let us use them in empire. I fail to see what is wrong with complaining about losing anywhere from 1-7 hours worth of mining? Maybe I shouldn't complain when I see macro miners?
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gfldex
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Posted - 2005.06.21 10:37:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Lynn Kyle
2. Permit pod killing of ore theives with zero security rating loss.
I want this! I would drop out a can in a noob system with an alt. Then i camp right next to that can for a noob who can't resist to take a look at it. He would find himself in a clone if he got one. Not a lot of profit but nice named fun. :)
Whenever you try to change something ask someone how is smart enough to break your idea _befor_ you post it. And remeber, the first idea is most prob. the worst!
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TuRtLe HeAd
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Posted - 2005.06.21 11:08:00 -
[11]
I think the only solution to it is Have password protected Jettison cans.
Or A skill that Allows you to password a certain amout of jettisoned canned (Obviously If you get ganked You dont have time to set a password so the loot is anybodys)
I cant remember if u can fire on a can but If you can it should be considered an act of agression if the Can is a jettisoned one (I.e Concordokken for destroying someone elses Jettisoned can.)
If the person that has jettisoned the can is in system Make it unopenable to anyone except his own corp members, If he leaves system or loses a Ship thats his own Fault.
Ore theivery is despicable but acceptable, We need to give the Theives a chance as well, its just at the moment there is no protection from them other than Sec containers that can't be used in High Sec Space.
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Ajunta LEE
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Posted - 2005.06.21 12:03:00 -
[12]
the only solution to me is to allow secured cans for a lap of time and in exchange of a space anchoring fee to compensate belt pollution.
and above all i think the busiest systems should have drastioc drops in the mineral spawning rates. that would also solve once and for all the idle mining issue.
it is a bit like if somebody started to seed and grow acres of corn in the middle of the new york megapole.
centrakl eve is were you sell it should not be where you harvest.
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Lord Sid
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Posted - 2005.06.21 12:06:00 -
[13]
here's an idea: don't mine into a can that isn't secure you stupid carebears. |
TuRtLe HeAd
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Posted - 2005.06.21 12:47:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Lord Sid
here's an idea: don't mine into a can that isn't secure you stupid carebears.
missed the point dude.
Firstly Im not a Miner.
Secondly there is no other option in high sec space because secure containers cannot be deployed.
There needs to be a way that is fair. Allowing a pilot to defend his own assets with out Concord intervention.
All that needs to happen is that a Theif gets flagged when he opens someone elses can. Then once flagged they show up red and can be attacked as per normal flagging rules. |
Ajunta LEE
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Posted - 2005.06.21 12:58:00 -
[15]
beware of the flag rule it is artificial and it does not work well.
i already laugh at the idea that if we implement this their will be a lot of carebears who will come back here because they got ganked by concord while killing a flagged ore thief.
why would concord attack them you will ask ? ?
those who played lineage 2 will answer..
because the flag has to wear off one time or another usually based on a timer, and when the flag wears off the ore thieve is no more free to be ganked so concord jump in and hammers the evil bastard who was revenging on him.
and second check this out, stealing ore and podding people is not on the same scale it does not seem fair to me that we apply death penalty to ore thieves. and just gunning down their ship.. well we all know they pilot dirt cheap ships.
and 3rd what is wrong with renting the right to anchor for some hours secured containers in high sec space.
and 4 what is wrong with the fact of depleting central eve 1.0 0.9 0.8 of ores these 1.0 systems especially have been far to more exploited for anything wothy to remain there the yields should be appalling, the spaning rates as well, moons should be polluted like hell, we all now man has a gift to spoil ressources wherever he is in too high numbers jyust like a tsunami of locusts.
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TuRtLe HeAd
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Posted - 2005.06.21 13:29:00 -
[16]
Its correct, its all about balance.
0.5 - 1.0 You have the security of concord protection but the risk of ore theivery.
0.0 - 0.4 You can exact your justice on the ore Thief but run the risk of pirates Ganking you in belts.
If you were able to sit in Secure space and do nothing Trust me you would get bored. You cannot remain innocent for the rest of your life !
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Cypherous
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Posted - 2005.06.21 13:50:00 -
[17]
Just create a free trial account and run an alt who can fly a hauler and just drop the ore in the can and then scoop it in to the hauler, its easy to do and i've done it myself. Plus you can use that bug whereby the alt can fly a hauler with expanders without having the skill to use expanders :)
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Carl Jidona
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Posted - 2005.06.21 13:52:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Carl Jidona on 21/06/2005 13:59:29
Well here is my take on yoru ideas and trust me I had a few cans looted and will tell you my solution to the ore thief at the end of this tell.
1) Ok you want people to lose security rating from taking stuff from a jet can. Well let me ask you this have you ever gone into a system and found jet cans with items in then just floating there?
If you have then by the game mechanics your no better than an ore thief does which is go into a can that is free to access by anyone.
Which means anyone that takes stuff from a jet can could using the game mechanics you want to create lose security status by just picking up left or forgotten loot.
2) Pod killing for ore theft? like was pointed out thats like shooting someone for having their dog take a dump on your yard and leaving it there.
3-4) This one kind of made me laugh, example: You and a friend are sharing a mining can to mine into your both pretty close to the can a guy flys up with an alt take's ore out of can, can explodes destroying all three ships; Can you see where this would go? people would do this instead of kessy killing.
Also who is to say that if mines were still in game they would not just mine whole belts and just watch the ships go pop when they insta into the field.
5) I have to say this one was the best IMHO, I can see all kind of lawsuits over this one new player has been playing a few weeks has gained enough skill points to get a nice frigate.
He goes to a belt and see's a can in a roid belt just sitting there no one around he goes to it opens it up see's 10-20k ore well in local he looks in local for the person that dropped the can but doesnt see him there see's that the can may pop.
He looks player up and sends a tell/email see's that the guy is not in goes ok maybe he didnt want this and take the ore, ZAPPP!!! he is in his pod outside his ship and when he tries to enter says he doesnt have the skill to fly the ship.
You then see a guy in a pod come into the belt say thanks for the frig and enters and flies away with the players ship he just bought a few weeks earlier.
He then petitions a GM who ask what happened, teh GM says you remember the tutorial and how that question and aswer was there? Oh I forgot you cant take from a free floating jet can or this happens. Yes were sorry this has happened to you but it is a game mechanic that was asked for by players who were fraustrated by ore thieves and its not an exploit since its part of the tutorial; Enjoy the game and he leaves.
I am sorry your fraustrated but all the things you want could be exploited in so many ways I just named a few of them; My advice is mine in a system thats not visted alot you wont get your ore stolen and you can still mine to a jet can but beware because jet cans are considered dumped cargo you really cant complaine about people taking advantage of it can you? I mean your taking advantage of the jet can issue yourself. 
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TuRtLe HeAd
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Posted - 2005.06.21 14:10:00 -
[19]
The easiest solutions are the Best. If you open a players Can. You get flagged the same as you would if you shot some one. Then The Owner ganks you.
Its that simple. its easier to implement and makes ore thiefs Think twice.
At the end of the day Ore thieves think twice if theres more than one person in a belt. So mine mine in Numbers. |
Carl Jidona
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Posted - 2005.06.21 14:20:00 -
[20]
Originally by: TuRtLe HeAd
The easiest solutions are the Best. If you open a players Can. You get flagged the same as you would if you shot some one. Then The Owner ganks you.
Its that simple. its easier to implement and makes ore thiefs Think twice.
At the end of the day Ore thieves think twice if theres more than one person in a belt. So mine mine in Numbers.
Only problem with that is I am sure it would be applied to all jet cans which include loot cans, which means you would be flagged and ganked by people setting people up. example: you fly into a system a guy is mining there, stops mining as you come closer to belt; He then tells you hey you want this ore? you say sure I can use all the help I can get.
You go up take the ore he then sets his drones on you and the pods you, your like WTF he says thanks takes whatever drops from your ship and leaves.
To make this feasible you would have to code it so that only gang members can take from your can you drop cause they would end up getting flagged otherwise. 
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Ralus
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Posted - 2005.06.21 14:31:00 -
[21]
I read a post on concord logic that had a fix to this on it
ore thief fix
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Little Brat
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Posted - 2005.06.21 15:02:00 -
[22]
Because of annoying and dishonest ppl stealing your hard work, I now mine with my alt in an indy. The can is used as a transfer point and never has more than 1 piece of anything in it. End of problem, tho I would also like to see a criminal flag on thiefs.
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Chaoskeeper
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Posted - 2005.06.21 15:19:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Chaoskeeper on 21/06/2005 15:19:00
just look it from this side
place a box full of jewelery in a paperbag in the middle of the streets of New York, do you think it will stay there for 10mins?
same with jettison cans, just use secured containers, nobody can open them, everyone (except the thefts) is happy.
Ore thefts are a part of the game, like pirates, traders, miners and fighters and if you wanna get rid of thefts, then please get rid of all the other professions too.
my 2 cents... now start the flamemachine
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Siri Danae
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Posted - 2005.06.21 16:00:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Siri Danae on 21/06/2005 16:01:35
Have any of you read the statement under 'Find an Answer' on the left-hand menu (Linkage?) that reads as follows:
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Question
Why is it so easy to steal ore ?
Answer
The regular containers were designed to jettison unwanted items into space or to hold loot from blown up ships. They were designed so that any player could take from them because that was essential for them to function as they were intended. Players later invented the "container mining" method after noticing that the containers could hold way more than any cargo hold. This use for the containers was never intended and it has the obvious flaw that any player with a reduced sense of right and wrong can come by and take everything from the container and no one can do anything about it.
This risk should be known to all players and there will be no reimbursement for ore lost this way. Also, ore "theft" is not considered harassment so no punishment will be dealt out to those who choose to "steal". Players who are thinking of taking up a career as ore thiefs should note that they will face a lifetime of unpopularity and unhappiness as a result.
CCP has decided to meet players halfway by implementing secure containers that can be bought on the market and have the advantage of being equipped with a password lock. These containers cost money and do not hold the vast amount of ore that the regular containers do. However, with good organization and frequent ore pickups using Industrial ships, they can be very useful for large scale mining operations.
The bottom line is: If you use regular containers to store your ore you assume all the risk. Having your valuables floating in space in an unsecured container is equivalent to throwing money on the street. Should you lurk nearby and wait for someone to take the money and then attack him, the police would deal with you, not him. The same goes in Eve. If you attack a player who just took "your" ore from a regular container in a system with a security level of 0.5 or higher. You will be destroyed by Concord.
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Ladies and Gentlemen, you already got your fix, it was the secure can. It was due to shortsighted abuse of these cans by corporations that they were made unanchorable in highsec space. If you could not be trusted with a secure can, why should you be trusted with life and death power over unorthodox mineral acquisition agents?
On another note, this has been beaten to death in the general forums, its been overdiscussed to no avail in the crime and punishment forum, why are you sullying this forum with another thread filled with complaints and overzealous vigilante dreams?
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pshepherd
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Posted - 2005.06.21 16:51:00 -
[25]
i hate ore theif threads: its a perfectlu legitimate way of getting people away from the central systems. tbh only idiots can't avoid ore thieves 
I want to be an ore-theif, but i enjoy 0.0 too much
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Ronin Woman
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Posted - 2005.06.21 20:16:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Artemis duLac
Sadly, CCP seem to consider ore theft as a "valid play style". There isn't a day that passes without someone suggesting a method (some reasonable, some not) to help cut down on ore theft, allow the victim an avenue for retribution etc.
Until CCP wake up and realise that there are more people wanting ore theft out than there are wanting ore theft in, you're wasting your breath :(
Well said
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Carl Jidona
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Posted - 2005.06.22 14:35:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Ronin Woman
Originally by: Artemis duLac
Sadly, CCP seem to consider ore theft as a "valid play style". There isn't a day that passes without someone suggesting a method (some reasonable, some not) to help cut down on ore theft, allow the victim an avenue for retribution etc.
Until CCP wake up and realise that there are more people wanting ore theft out than there are wanting ore theft in, you're wasting your breath :(
Well said
I think they are already woken up its the people who insist on expecting people to leave their jet cans alone that have not. 
In many post CCP has stated that the jet can is ment to be accessed by anyone; they are also used to dispose of items that the player doesnt want; THE reason is people's greed, they want a huge ass Can to do with what they want to make mining easier and save time. 
The thing is people are refusing, to say, compromise in how they mine, they want CCP to make all these new modifications to the game so that certain play styles can be done at the expense of others; (Ore stealing is a profession whether you want to believe it or not) do I ore steal? no! I mine in areas that I have charted people do not usually go to thus avoid the ore thief.
The thing is CCP does not want to hold your hand, if you want a safe enviroment then play a stand alone game that does not require you to play with others which is basicaly what this whinning is all about.
CCP has made secure cans that can be secured in 0.8 or lower systems, get out of the main systems use 10 Huge Secure Can's that will be the equivalent of a jet can but that locks.
The hand holding is over  you need to realize that like in life, their are people that will take advantage of you and if you are not willing to make some changes and figure out ways that someone wont be able to steal from you.
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