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Vincent Lionhart	Posted - 2005.06.27 00:30:00 - [1] So today I tried to get my girl friend to play EvE as a break from Final Fantasy XI. The tutorial was...lacking, she was confused as hell on what to do and had no clue how to start up. I forgot how I started up to 10 million sp besides learning skills but I just realized how damn boring it is for her. She might as well go afk for the first few weeks because she is REQUIRED in order to have max efficency in skill training to do Learning skills first. I bought a lot of skill books for her but wtf is she going to do for the first few weeks besides log on and train skills... This game is fun and all but why is the beginning so damn boring.
juduzz	Posted - 2005.06.27 00:32:00 - [2] bull****, you dont have to train ya learning skills up at first, damn mine were still at lvl 3 with 8 mill skill points. for the first months or so train what you want to get used to the game giving yaself new goal AKA that frig/cruiser/Indy ect. ----------------------------------------------
Deja Thoris	Posted - 2005.06.27 00:39:00 - [3] I tend to agree. You can play the game and train at snails pace or you can do the learning skills and be pretty useless for a while. It's time new players got a "bit" of loving.
Andre Ricard	Posted - 2005.06.27 00:57:00 - [4] No offense, but if the Tutorial as it is now is lacking for her, she must be pretty dense. It's basically "Carebearism for Dummies" at this point. It tells you how to do EVERYTHING, with pictures and all. ____________________________________ Justice is the only thing I have left. The lives of thousands be damned.
Jobby	Posted - 2005.06.27 01:01:00 - [5] There's a new tutorial on Sisi atm, iirc. Coming up soon, I'd imagine.
Santiac	Posted - 2005.06.27 01:01:00 - [6] Edited by: Santiac on 27/06/2005 01:02:02 I didn't train my learning skills up before 2 - 3 months in the game, and was around 1¢ months before i joined a corp. I think the main reason i didn't find this boring or one long wait was that i never had anyone tell me to "Go train learning skills !!!1!1¢", and basicly that let me train what ever the didly i wanted or was aiming for, and blimey was it fun scraping enough ISK together to buy that shiny hen of a Moa, spotting the occasional megathron, look at the pretty skills, equipment, what not, things that i could still only just dream about, and what possibilities and adventure there were in store for me finding out what all these innumerable skills, turrets, etc. did and how to play around with them, and the beauty of it was i didn't feel i had to catch up to anyone to get ahead in the SP-****ing contest ;> Oh and for getting your girlfriend to play EVE aswell, play it with her - start a new character and do level 1 missions or what ever she fancy's to do in eve. That's what i did, and although she was very skeptical about EVE in the beginning, she simply loves it now. ________________________________________ <insert clever/witty comment here>
Deja Thoris	Posted - 2005.06.27 01:04:00 - [7] Originally by: Andre Ricard No offense, but if the Tutorial as it is now is lacking for her, she must be pretty dense. It's basically "Carebearism for Dummies" at this point. It tells you how to do EVERYTHING, with pictures and all. Does it teach you all about the aggro rules? No Now shut up.
Knukalz	Posted - 2005.06.27 01:07:00 - [8] Man, you've forgotten wot it was like to first play this game.
Aitrus	Posted - 2005.06.27 01:10:00 - [9] Don't do the learning skills first thing. Get her enough skills to pilot a frig well, or a cruiser passably, then start the learning skills. This will give her enough equip/skills to actually do stuff. Enjoying the game is more important than maximum skill training efficiency.
Lythius Arcturnus	Posted - 2005.06.27 01:13:00 - [10] Best way to get someone into Eve is have them give you 30 dollars and then tell them "Yeah, I got this great game for you to try. You'll be ready to play in 2 months once I get some skills trained for you." I would like to see all the advanced learning skills removed and everyone just start with 4 or 5 extra points in each attribute. The learning skills are really just a time sink, but I do admire the goal behind them which was to speed up skill training. The only problem is the 2 months of training you need for the learning skills before you can enjoy the payoff.
Vincent Lionhart	Posted - 2005.06.27 01:13:00 - [11] Originally by: Andre Ricard No offense, but if the Tutorial as it is now is lacking for her, she must be pretty dense. It's basically "Carebearism for Dummies" at this point. It tells you how to do EVERYTHING, with pictures and all. Sorry that we're not all as smart as you but if I recall correctly when I first got passed the tutorial I was simply overwhelmed trying to figure out what to do next. Eventually I decided to try to make money by mining. The main problem with my gf and I is that both of us can't play without the fact that we're being "efficent". When I first found out about training skills I felt like I had wasted so much time (when infact I was only 1 - 2 months behind in training without them). So training skills are a MUST. I've been doing courier missions with her and stuff but it's going to be a while before my corp would even think of accepting her. I'm just making a suggestion because I'm pretty damn sure she's not the only newb who entered the game and felt like "O.O What do I do now" after the tutorial.
Hllaxiu	Posted - 2005.06.27 01:29:00 - [12] You really don't need the learning skills first. Its easy to go up one or two on the learning skills and then get some of the basic skills for whatever you're going to do. Get balanced attributes, perception high, charisma low, and you can get skills in a fair amount of time. You really don't need your learning skills first - but you should be working on the advanced skills after the first month. IMHO anyways.
infused	Posted - 2005.06.27 01:32:00 - [13] The new tutorial in the new patch is much better. [World Domination]
Karn Mithralia	Posted - 2005.06.27 01:39:00 - [14] You seem to have forgotten the all important message: You are not your skills. EVE is great in that everything isn't handed to you on a plate and that you have enormous choice in how to play. You can train a few quick skills in teh first few hours and be swatting small rats in a frigate or mining ya carebear heart out. Getting bogged down in how to make the most efficient use of game mechanics is the best way to kill any game. Sure, play as best you can, but don't forget the aim is to play.
Santiac	Posted - 2005.06.27 01:39:00 - [15] higher attributes will help when you are about to train skills from 4 -> 5, and it'll help you get what you want a bit faster then, but saying that you cant be effecient without them is a bit far fetched ;o it's fine that you have goals but if look too far ahead you will make the game exhausting to play, instead of setting goals like joining a corp with a SP limit, why not get her to set a simple goal of a fully-fitted frig, getting to know rats, finding out what she'd want to be, researching what different modules do and how to work them, be effecient as she can be at that stage and not worrying about catching up SP wise as everyone else seems to be. If she spent a little time deciding what she wanted to do and what she needed to do it good she would right then and there save a whole hell of a lot of training time :) As for the tutorial, yeah i remember it was somewhat confusing (struggled for a few mins finding the Hangar :P), but after i had already looked a bit at the frigs and skills they needed and tried to pair up the different weapon types with the different races, not to be effecient exactly, more for the fun of getting in to the atmosphere of the game. Since i was a big fan of the whole "railgun" concept, i wanted to play with them and did agent missions, and i've only ever mined a bit while studying, or for corp ops - others might do it the other way around, all about finding out what you want to do, and you aren't going to find that out by training learning skills :) ________________________________________ <insert clever/witty comment here>
Vincent Lionhart	Posted - 2005.06.27 02:01:00 - [16] Originally by: Karn Mithralia You seem to have forgotten the all important message: You are not your skills. EVE is great in that everything isn't handed to you on a plate and that you have enormous choice in how to play. You can train a few quick skills in teh first few hours and be swatting small rats in a frigate or mining ya carebear heart out. Getting bogged down in how to make the most efficient use of game mechanics is the best way to kill any game. Sure, play as best you can, but don't forget the aim is to play. Holy ****...I think you're right. Maybe that's why I quit all my other games.
OffBeaT	Posted - 2005.06.27 02:05:00 - [17] Edited by: OffBeaT on 27/06/2005 02:11:00 Edited by: OffBeaT on 27/06/2005 02:05:54 yea, you only need too work them learning skills too 3 or 4 for now. take you what week if that too get them to 3. i am only now starting too do my learning skills too 5 then on too the others only because i have most of my main skills too 4/5 now. your rank 3 and under skills dont need too have learning skills worked as it will take no time too work them to 4. rank 4 and up skills yes i would say work your att skills for them after you get them too 3/4 in level. oh yea, dispite what some say your skills do matter alot in what you can take on in the game so work them wisly.
nahtoh	Posted - 2005.06.27 02:09:00 - [18] Originally by: Vincent Lionhart Originally by: Andre Ricard No offense, but if the Tutorial as it is now is lacking for her, she must be pretty dense. It's basically "Carebearism for Dummies" at this point. It tells you how to do EVERYTHING, with pictures and all. Sorry that we're not all as smart as you but if I recall correctly when I first got passed the tutorial I was simply overwhelmed trying to figure out what to do next. Eventually I decided to try to make money by mining. The main problem with my gf and I is that both of us can't play without the fact that we're being "efficent". When I first found out about training skills I felt like I had wasted so much time (when infact I was only 1 - 2 months behind in training without them). So training skills are a MUST. I've been doing courier missions with her and stuff but it's going to be a while before my corp would even think of accepting her. I'm just making a suggestion because I'm pretty damn sure she's not the only newb who entered the game and felt like "O.O What do I do now" after the tutorial. Oh boohoo...the choice of when to learn the training skills is down to the indvidual do em first and be bored ****less or do em later after you have had some fun and tried some stuff out... I really don't see the point of training them first you say what a couple of minutes off the basic skills? Big Whoop. As for the tutorial I finished it and thought "oh wow all this stuff to learn cool, a tutorial that does not treat you like you are retarded even better". If you have 10 mil SP you can help her tune her starting stats/skills to get a head start. As for the agro rules if not red and shooting at you don't shoot it, if you never make a mistake then you never really learn anything... "I am not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why can`t we just take the safety labels off everything and let the problem solve itself" (credits to mcallister TCS)
Vincent Lionhart	Posted - 2005.06.27 03:42:00 - [19] Heh, I remeber when I was a newb my friend opened fire at me for fun ignoring the warning. Guess what happened after that. Anyways, it just seems like it's still gonna be one or two days before I can get her into a Merlin and after that she's gonna have to do training skills anyways. I really wish CCP would just take out the training skills and just give us extra stat points. I understand that the intent behind training skills were to let us train faster but at the sametime, for new players, it's a HUGE time sink. Eventually everyone has to do Learning skills and during that time there's not much to do but log on and train skills since it takes around a month or so to get them all done. Hm...I mean, we all got through that part (I hope) but maybe it's a major turn off to others?
Gamer4liff	Posted - 2005.06.27 03:44:00 - [20] its not boring if you know the right people and wtf to do, its hard training your girlfriend in eve, take it from me, mine is starting to take to it, comp crashes all the time tho, damn inferior girlfriend PC's.
BlueSmok	Posted - 2005.06.27 03:54:00 - [21] Well it's been a year since my wife and I started playing at the same time. Our experience won't be the same as everyone elses but here goes. The first week we mined and trained up for Frigate skills waiting for that uber tier 3 frigate so we could finaly kill those dreaded NPC spawns in .8 systems where all the "Good" ore was. After that week we ran into some old friends that were playing already and joined their corp. What an eye opener that was omg you mean 1M isk isn't a lot of money and you're just giving it to me without anything in trade? omg thx!! We both split off on two different skill directions, I concentrated on the Industrial side hoping to become a master refiner for the ore I mined. She went for the combat pilot to protect my mining operations (she liked to make things go boom) :) We quickly learned about the learning skills and realized devotion to those skills would make the next few months of game boring. Especialy after the prospect of getting into cruisers became a possibility with the added income of participating in corp Operations, They usualy had us collecting cans on combat ops or Hauling during mining ops, the pay we got we were happy to have. After a month or two of playing and exploring on our own the cruiser level was achievd and we started ops of our own raking in loads of isk with mining ops and doing agent missions together. The key was the staggering of learning skills with desired "fun" skills. Get that Kick ass frigate, then train learning 4. Train for that kick ass Medium guns then train learning 5.. etc... Now we've got our own corp and are quite happy :) *Laws to suppress tend to strengthen what they would prohibit. This is the fine point on which all the legal professions of history have based their job security. Bene Gesserit Coda
Blind Fear	Posted - 2005.06.27 03:55:00 - [22] Edited by: Blind Fear on 27/06/2005 03:55:00 Originally by: Vincent Lionhart So today I tried to get my girl friend to play EvE as a break from Final Fantasy XI. The tutorial was...lacking, she was confused as hell on what to do and had no clue how to start up. Blonde, right?
OffBeaT	Posted - 2005.06.27 04:04:00 - [23] Originally by: Blind Fear Edited by: Blind Fear on 27/06/2005 03:55:00 Originally by: Vincent Lionhart So today I tried to get my girl friend to play EvE as a break from Final Fantasy XI. The tutorial was...lacking, she was confused as hell on what to do and had no clue how to start up. Blonde, right? omg.. your more evil then me *****!
Vincent Lionhart	Posted - 2005.06.27 04:12:00 - [24] Originally by: Blind Fear Edited by: Blind Fear on 27/06/2005 03:55:00 Originally by: Vincent Lionhart So today I tried to get my girl friend to play EvE as a break from Final Fantasy XI. The tutorial was...lacking, she was confused as hell on what to do and had no clue how to start up. Blonde, right? So you were a genius and knew exactly what skills to train, where to go, what to do after the tutorial? You were probably just as confused, if not more (seeing how I was helping her) compared to her. And no, she's asian with dyed orange/brown hair. Don't light the candle on fire, otherwise we can start exchanging pics of each other's gf and I assure you, yours is uglier then mine seeing how mine's a HK model =)
Liu Kaskakka	Posted - 2005.06.27 05:16:00 - [25] Originally by: Vincent Lionhart mine's a HK model =) HK as in Heintz Kuchler? I hear they use excellent rubber in their products.
Lorth	Posted - 2005.06.27 05:50:00 - [26] Originally by: Vincent Lionhart mine's a HK model =) Ever notice that everyone's significant other is a modal on the internet. My girl friend in paris hilton, I even have pictures of her to prove it. But onto the original subject. Eve is actually pretty noob friendly. Sure it has a steep learning curve, but its nothing most people can't handle. Not to mention there are litterally thousands of players willing to answer any question you have either on the forums, or in game. Newbies don't need all the answers, they just need easy ways to find things out on thier own. And frankly they have that. Half the fun of getting a new game is figuring it out, don't ruin that.
Vincent Lionhart	Posted - 2005.06.27 06:04:00 - [27] Originally by: Liu Kaskakka Originally by: Vincent Lionhart mine's a HK model =) HK as in Heintz Kuchler? I hear they use excellent rubber in their products. Hong Kong =P http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Ayumikagari Being in a HK magazine once counts as a model to me =P Ok on topic, I guess both her and I are used to traditional MMORPGs such as FFXI and WoW. When you enter the game you have one purpose, grind your ass off 'till you hit cap level. Guess it's time to get in a Merlin and go blow stuff up with her...
Messerschmitt facility	Posted - 2005.06.27 06:05:00 - [28] And you DONT NEED to learn the learning skills. They are just an anex to learn faster. Just learn your normal skills and after you have a base then do the learnings step by step. You want to be 100% efficient in learning? then do them and be afk 2 months and do nothing. Your choice. _________________________________ A conclusion is the place where you got tired of thinking...
TEALEAF	Posted - 2005.06.27 06:16:00 - [29] yeah i agree its very confusing for noobs,too much to get your head round in the begginin. get ya missus to train up for cruiser 1st then run misions mine whilst doin learnin skills.
Fellhand	Posted - 2005.06.27 06:29:00 - [30] You don't actually need learning skills to be useful. Train up for a decent frig or cruiser first, then do the learning skills if you want to. I actually think Eve is pretty unfriendly to newbies, mainly because it's so complex but since that's also the main reason I love this game, I'll live with it. The tutorial could use a bit of an overhaul but I gather that's on it's way. _______________________________________________ There is no such thing as too much cynicism Flame me if you wish, I laugh with scorn at threats... Beware of geeks bearing gifs
Shamis Orzoz	Posted - 2005.06.27 06:48:00 - [31] These threads come up every few weeks. And I always say, give the noobs some more skillpoints. It takes too long to be able to do anthing. Give em a million skillpoints to start off.
Sirilonwe	Posted - 2005.06.27 08:48:00 - [32] Beside the new tutorial I saw new civilian modules: civilian afterburners, and so on. And hell yes, don't do the learning skills first: enjoy the game. (BTW, i didn't know them for 6 months). _______________________ Forums DSU
Rod Blaine	Posted - 2005.06.27 09:02:00 - [33] Your sister started out with the wrong expectation. Even is not a game. Hence you don't start it with the rules explained to you in detail. You have to discover them and be taught them by others. You have to learn how to see how half the rules are made by players more then by CCP. And you have to accept that it's the experience that counts in the first months. She has no need to e4ven know agro rules in the first weeks, unless you dragged her into a corp right away, which would equal to killing the whole experience for her. Let her find out for herself, and make her read the above ten times. Even is not about being as efficient as you can in learning your skills. Eve is about being as efficient as you can in having fun. _______________________________________________ Yes yes, blogging is passÚ I know. Rod's Ramblingz on Eve-Online Solutions to your issues.
Discorporation	Posted - 2005.06.27 09:13:00 - [34] Eve has one of the steepest learning curves of all time, barring, perhaps the Master of Orion series when playing off illegal copies, without a manual. This fortunately weeds out the people that don't want to spend a few days/weeks to learn a game, but it does have the tendency to be unneccesarily frustrating. I hope the new tutorial is as awesome as it should be [Heterocephalus glaber]
Nafri	Posted - 2005.06.27 09:23:00 - [35] mhh well, what tutorial, I think I aborted it back then No sig today
Avon	Posted - 2005.06.27 09:29:00 - [36] re: learning skills. If you use the wonderful character manager you can see exactly when learning skills are useful. There comes a point when it is faster to train a level of one or more learning skill levels AND the desired skill than just training the skill. I ran an alt using this method and I think the balance is about perfect - learning skills don't become a timesink because you can actually see a direct reward. ______________________________________________ Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay.
Gigi Barbagrigia	Posted - 2005.06.27 09:35:00 - [37] Edited by: Gigi Barbagrigia on 27/06/2005 09:41:10 Surprised how "blonde" comment came in only on second page Had few friends starting over past 3-4 months and they did just fine. The only really long debate we had was around allocating attributes at char creation. Haven't checked if that was better explained since but if not, it should be. And n00b corp chats, although a mess at times, do help even if you're starting completely on your own. Go ultimate carebears! Plus, you can't really mess up a char in Eve. As for learning skills, telling people to max those before doing anything else is wrong. Get Eve Char Manager and play around a bit and you'll see why. Heavy FastPost Missile I belonging to Avon hits you doing 6 minutes ----- 42
Eris Discordia	Posted - 2005.06.27 09:37:00 - [38] Stay on topic, all of you I ♥ my pink dreadnought of pwnage Mail [email protected] if you have any questions.
Derisor	Posted - 2005.06.27 09:44:00 - [39] Originally by: Vincent Lionhart So today I tried to get my girl friend to play EvE as a break from Final Fantasy XI. The tutorial was...lacking, she was confused as hell on what to do and had no clue how to start up. I forgot how I started up to 10 million sp besides learning skills but I just realized how damn boring it is for her. She might as well go afk for the first few weeks because she is REQUIRED in order to have max efficency in skill training to do Learning skills first. I bought a lot of skill books for her but wtf is she going to do for the first few weeks besides log on and train skills... This game is fun and all but why is the beginning so damn boring. Have her recreate her char with the max specialization. Yes, she might loose a couple of days of training but she will be better off in the long run. Then get her into a tackling frig. You need very minimial skills and income to tackle in this game. She can help people fight by tackling the bad guys and learn the ropes of PvP. --------- The words "Exciting" and "Safe" are mutually exclusive; pick one.
Nev Clavain	Posted - 2005.06.27 09:44:00 - [40] Its a strange point - is EVE newb friendly or not? I would consider myself and EVE newb with less than 2Million sp, and playing for around 3 months. Some parts of the game are difficult to understand, while some parts seem a little too easy. My example is my recently acquired Battleship, a Dominix. It really wasnt hard to get to that level. It was certainly time consuming, but while you are mining millions of minerals gives you plenty of time to plot out the skills you need, and learn them. So to get to this size of ship is not difficult, but to actually make this ship something capable of defending itself is another matter. The tanking skills are relatively straight forward, but the gunnery skills and gun attributes confuse me no end as to how they are actually effecting the weapon in combat. Nowhere in the game (that i have discovered) does it explain tracking speed and accuracy falloff, and how they relate to optimum range etc. For example I have heavy blasters with an accuracy falloff which is more than their optimal range, and some railguns with an accuracy fallofff some 20km less than the optimal range and I dont really understand what this is doing. Thats just one thing I dont understand. All I'm saying is its pretty easy to get into a BS within a few months if you have the time, but to turn that BS into anything other than a slow target with alot of hitpoints takes alot of knowledge which is difficult to find from the game itself. Only because I am in a Corp with more experienced players am I starting to understand these things. However people should not be penalised for not being in a PC corp. Essentially,I am saying a device should NEVER have an attribute that is not clearly explained as to how that attribute effects the properties of the item. Clicking on a particular attribute of a module or weapon should bring up an info box explaining how the particular modifiers work e.g. where a figure of 2.8976 damage modifier comes from - how much is your skills, how much is the weapon, how much is the ammo, how much is ship bonus etc. Broken down like that it would make the modules and ship fitting a little less bewildering to a beginner. As to all you people saying 'bah carebears its easy enough' - all I can say is get over yourselves, looking at it objectively this game is more complicated than 99% of games out there, and when you say things like its soo easy learn it for yourselves - you are just trying to look clever and you are behaving like a teenager. :)
Derisor	Posted - 2005.06.27 09:50:00 - [41] Originally by: Vincent Lionhart So training skills are a MUST. I've been doing courier missions with her and stuff but it's going to be a while before my corp would even think of accepting her. If a corp wont accept your real life GF in corp then you need a new corp. Also why not get her into a hauling ship and you can turbo mine while she hauls and split the cash. Once she has 50 mil or so, she can decide to play the markets. Three things I will say to you man. 1) There are a lot of elitist ****s on the forum, dont let them get to you. 2) You are absolutely right in that Eve is newb unfriendly. That is something I have been flameds for saying more times than I can possibly count. 3) Once she gets into it, she will love it. Please feel free to give her my name in game and I can give her any newb advice I posess. --------- The words "Exciting" and "Safe" are mutually exclusive; pick one.*
corporal hicks	Posted - 2005.06.27 09:54:00 - [42] When I started I trained up to about 1 million sp in different skills most of them to level 1-2. remember you can have a starting character in a cruiser in about 2 days easy. got cruiser up to level 3 med guns to level 3 and mining up to level 4 i think got most of the other basics to level 2-3 and then did learning ran missions and mined and npc hunted in 0.5 or above and then started on learning while raking in the isk doing other stuff. " Stay Frosty "
Ombey	Posted - 2005.06.27 10:34:00 - [43] I disagree with the original post. It's damn boring for a vet, sure. I got my wife to have a go at the game. I purposely didn't give her any ISK, skillbooks etc, and let her find things out for herself and make money for herself, asking me if she needed something clarified. Basically, it's not boring for a new player, as there is so much to take in. The market screen alone is a great source of info. When you are doing the tutorial missions, you are learning to fly and shoot stuff, one step at a time. I told my wife to forget learning skills and have fun with skills that can mean you can add stuff to your ship. Do the learning skills after a week or 2. She is having a blast now, and enjoying it. ---------------------------
Spanker	Posted - 2005.06.27 10:51:00 - [44] Edited by: Spanker on 27/06/2005 10:53:07 Mine and train skills so you can buy and fly a Kestrel with missile launchers. You'll do this in a day or so. Never mind the MWD which takes ages to learn. Then do missions while waiting for your learning skills to get to lvl 4. This takes some time but I'll bet those missions are a blast for a newbie, plus said newbie will be teh richz0r in time for cruiser upgrade. My point is that you get cash and skills sufficient to put you in the thick of the action within just a day or two. After that, if you haven't tired of the game, you'll most likely be hooked and will start building your empire
Pihls	Posted - 2005.06.27 11:10:00 - [45] mm EVE needs too be more Newbie friendly at start. I agree with Vincent here. maybe loosen up on the skill req for those newbies at the begining soo well they get some fun "while training skills"

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