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Derisor
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Posted - 2005.06.27 11:34:00 -
[1]
I was hunting some rats last night in a mission and I noticed the usual lag that I have sometimes in frame rate. To combat this I tried to zoom quite a bit of the ways out until my ship was just a dot. (As an aside, it would be convenient if there was an icon for yourself as well as gang mates). Despite the fact that i zoomed out so far, I didnt notice a sizeable decrease in lag. This is with turrets and effects off as well.
This got me thinking and wondering if the even engine uses level of detail when rendering ships. IE: are the ships rendered as models that are very small and very far away or does the engine cull out model rendering and replace with icons at a certain distance where the ship or asteroid is no longer visible?
Just currious. 
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The words "Exciting" and "Safe" are mutually exclusive; pick one. |
Discorporation
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Posted - 2005.06.27 11:36:00 -
[2]
The latter 
[Heterocephalus glaber]
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Derisor
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Posted - 2005.06.27 11:38:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: Discorporation
The latter
They use a ladder ? That makes sense. Easier to reach things in high places but I dont understand what it has to do with the engine.
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The words "Exciting" and "Safe" are mutually exclusive; pick one. |
Discorporation
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Posted - 2005.06.27 11:40:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Discorporation on 27/06/2005 11:40:04
Originally by: Derisor
Originally by: Discorporation
The latter
They use a ladder ? That makes sense. Easier to reach things in high places but I dont understand what it has to do with the engine.
Originally by: Derisor
IE: are the ships rendered as models that are very small and very far away or does the engine cull out model rendering and replace with icons at a certain distance where the ship or asteroid is no longer visible?
The latter.
If you zoom out, the target 'plops' out and leaves only an icon. Sometimes you notice it, when lag is bad allready, the client freezes just a lil more.
(Pure observation, ofc)
[Heterocephalus glaber]
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Derisor
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Posted - 2005.06.27 11:42:00 -
[5]
I was trying to be funny... anyway how could you know? Have you seen the source code or a quote from the devs somewhere? Dont assume the naturally correct thing is done. (Well at least no professional consultant with experience would assume it)
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The words "Exciting" and "Safe" are mutually exclusive; pick one. |
Avon
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Posted - 2005.06.27 11:45:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Derisor
I was trying to be funny... anyway how could you know? Have you seen the source code or a quote from the devs somewhere? Dont assume the naturally correct thing is done. (Well at least no professional consultant with experience would assume it)
It is perfectly easy to look the code Derisor, you make it sound difficult.
There are no different LOD's for the models.
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Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay. |
Kunming
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Posted - 2005.06.27 11:50:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Derisor
I was trying to be funny... anyway how could you know? Have you seen the source code or a quote from the devs somewhere? Dont assume the naturally correct thing is done. (Well at least no professional consultant with experience would assume it)
You will see this if u fight NPCs like blood raiders. In the example of a BR apoc, up close you'll see the red texture, abit zoomed out it looks like a normal one with lower quality textures. This also points out that it has been changed after release (to counter gfx lag probably) and the devs have forgotten to add the lesser textures for specific ships like the blood raider apoc (as an example).
Intercepting since BETA |
Discorporation
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Posted - 2005.06.27 12:26:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Derisor
I was trying to be funny
You failed 
Originally by: Derisor
... anyway how could you know? Have you seen the source code or a quote from the devs somewhere? Dont assume the naturally correct thing is done. (Well at least no professional consultant with experience would assume it)
Observation
[Heterocephalus glaber]
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Sedory Darklight
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Posted - 2005.06.27 12:57:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Kunming
You will see this if u fight NPCs like blood raiders. In the example of a BR apoc, up close you'll see the red texture, abit zoomed out it looks like a normal one with lower quality textures. This also points out that it has been changed after release (to counter gfx lag probably) and the devs have forgotten to add the lesser textures for specific ships like the blood raider apoc (as an example).
What you are describing is a built in feature of opengl/directx that takes a texture and mipmaps it to several layers of quality. This way the API can automatically switch to a lower resolution texture when the object is farther from the camera. This is not what the original poster was inquiring. If this is all the LOD that's happening then the model is still being rendered but with mipmapped textures.
While this is a valid LOD method, it could be optimized by adding a billboard replacemet of the model at a certain range. Thus, instead of rendering xxxx number of polygons for the distant tiny ship, it can render a single polygon (a billboard is more or less a 2d sprite facing the camera at all times.)
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-Oi- Sedory Darklight |
Balazs Simon
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Posted - 2005.06.27 13:56:00 -
[10]
LOD modells are not in.. but if I understud it right it was mentioned by the dev's, that they plan to use LOD to optimaze the engine...
The above mentioned texture change on the bloods are not LOD, it is a simple texture "bug"(?)....
If LOD come in , you will see strange things when you zoom on something with the "both mouse button pressed" mode... ie: bad for movei makers = good for graphical lag reduction.
I do not know if the Devs realy plan to use this, but the mentioned it sometime ago, thats for sure.
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theRaptor
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Posted - 2005.06.27 14:04:00 -
[11]
EVE has basic LOD. First turrets stop being rendered. Then T2/faction ships revert to T1 texture. The turret LODing is based on camera distance, but the texture LODing seems to be based on ship-to-ship distance. I noticed it when fighting Bloodraider BS, it was really noticeable that the bloody/rusty texture was being switched for the brighter standard Amarr one.
That is not dead which can eternal lie,
And with strange aeons even death may die.
-- Ancient "Dirt" Religious figure. |
Avon
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Posted - 2005.06.27 14:08:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Avon on 27/06/2005 14:08:33
Removing models is not LOD, and mipmap layers of dds textures don't really count either.
LOD is changing the amount of poloygons which make up the actual model. (So turrets don't count because the detail doesn't change, they just stop rendering them entirely)
______________________________________________
Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay. |
Sedory Darklight
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Posted - 2005.06.27 18:59:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Avon
Removing models is not LOD, and mipmap layers of dds textures don't really count either.
Yes, removing models is part of LOD. While, it's the lowest possible variation, it is still an option for the game developer to consider for LOD optimizations. Read further..
Originally by: Avon
LOD is changing the amount of poloygons which make up the actual model. (So turrets don't count because the detail doesn't change, they just stop rendering them entirely)
Yes and no. LOD is "Level of Detail". This includes texture details and child models (turrets, etc,) as well as model poly counts. A model close to the camera should have a decently high poly count, full child models attached, and full resolution textures.
Then as you move the model away from the camera, you switch the model to another version of the same model with a lower poly count, remove child models, and lower the texture accordingly. You could have many levels of a model.. typically I've seen a High, Med, and Low poly count set of models for each model. The problem usually comes to how much work the art department wants to put in for differing versions of the models. (basically at least tripling the amount of work needed to be done.)
At the lowest level of detail, one could even go so far as to switch the model to what is known as an imposter (a 2d sprite of the model on a billboard - which means it's always facing the camera.) At that distance, it should more or less be a dot on the screen. IMO, I would suggest a symbol to represent that there is a ship at that location, but that's just me.
With impostering implemented, one could watch a massive fleet battle and have little to no video lag. They'd also more or less be looking at a tactical view of the combat (assuming they are zoomed out far enough.)
Each game dev has their own methods of doing things and using imposters does have to be written into the design of the engine, thus not likely possible in the current Eve engine. However, I was just stating what could be done.
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-Oi- Sedory Darklight |
Winterblink
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Posted - 2005.06.27 19:08:00 -
[14]
I can just imagine EVE with LOD optimization, where large fleet battles optimize the clients to look like massively multiplayer Asteroids.
___winterblink/warp_drive_active/eve_nature_vraie// |
Meridius
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Posted - 2005.06.27 19:16:00 -
[15]
I hate LOD, i wish i could shut it off. Doensn't help small scale pvp at all.
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