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Ile Disco
Airtight Investment Racketeers
4
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Posted - 2013.03.01 16:37:00 -
[31] - Quote
Please stop moaning about being caught by the margin trading scam, your greed and poor research is why you got scammed and lost your isk on an expensive item you now can't sell.
Every trader uses this skill legitimately every day, usually with orders at least in the 10's of billions and never once fails to pay for item sold to him. When you get 315 orders with at least half of them being buy orders, you will cherish this skill as we all do.
TLDR: Don't be greedy, do your homework, if it's too good to be true, it probably is. |
Callic Veratar
Power of the Phoenix
339
|
Posted - 2013.03.01 17:45:00 -
[32] - Quote
What is see is that the issue is not the Margin Trading Scam. The issue is, like many other rules in EVE, there's no way to know that these edge cases are there until you trip over them.
Consider what is required to discover that it's possible to place a buy order without sufficient funds to pay? Not only do you need to encounter it, but you need to determine whether or not it's a scam without knowing the phrase "Margin Trading".
There is nothing inside EVE that explains to you how this trading mechan works, which is a terrible system. See also: Jump Drive, Capitals, and Super Captials. How do they work? What are the restrictions on them? How many new players in Amarr see the Veldnaught and thing "that's going to be me some day"? I've even seen cases of players getting to the point where they have all the materials and blueprints to build a capital and it isn't until they attempt to install the job in a station that they find out you can't have them in high sec.
I see three valid paths here: modify the margin trading skill, remove the skill, or find a way to present it's existence to all players. Falling for a scam should not be the only way to learn about it in game.
DirectX 11, it's not rocket appliance! |
Ile Disco
Airtight Investment Racketeers
6
|
Posted - 2013.03.01 18:15:00 -
[33] - Quote
The things is I have 19 bil of sell orders at the moment and 15 bil of buys but I only have 3 billion isk in Liquid on this character.
So all my buy orders would be marked with a X saying that I can't pay for these items, but there is no way all these buy orders would or could be filled at the same time and I won't default on any of my purchases. Leave the skill as it is, do a little research and don't buy what you can't afford to lose. This is EVE, it's not easy, it's not supposed to be. You learn more things the more you play, little tricks here, game mechanics there. I've been playing close to 3 years and I learn new things everyday I log in.
Stop expecting to be spoon fed, research, attempt, discover and learn then try again. |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
94
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Posted - 2013.03.02 03:59:00 -
[34] - Quote
Victims should not be blamed for the acts of those who wrong them.
The skill as it is used at this point is mostly scam.
The legitimate orders being spoken of would be covered under the suggestion, because your 3 billion is plenty to cover the minimum purchase amount of any given order---the problem only exists when you abuse the system to create a situation where even one unit of minimum sale cannot be purchased by the character.
Even so, just moveing this behavior out of high sec so that the markets are more secure serves the interests of the most people most of the time. |
Sigras
Conglomo
IMPERIAL LEGI0N
376
|
Posted - 2013.03.02 04:42:00 -
[35] - Quote
ok, allow me to reiterate . . . > 1% of trading goes on in low/null NOBODY is moving out to null just because you cant margin trade in high sec; who are they going to trade with? themselves?
That being said seriously, most of the large scale traders use margin trading legitimately, so saying the skills has no legit use is the most moronic thing ever.
The only good idea anyone has ever had is the "request audit" feature, as running a cron job every time a persons wallet changes is impossible.
Also, yes, victims should be blamed; if you ignore the warning signs and walk out in the middle of the train tracks, is it the train's fault that youre an idiot? |
Savira Terrant
Valhollr
25
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Posted - 2013.03.02 11:43:00 -
[36] - Quote
I agree, moving margin trading out of highsec is not the solution here.
Changing the the skill or how the market works is.
If you want a skill that cannot be abused for the purpose of scamming via a game mechanic instead of meta-gaming (only the latter being approved by CCP as far as I can tell - on the other hand one could interpret the missing action to remove this scam a silent approval also), without removing the purpose of the skill, we have to wait untill CCP revamps the market workings as seen in my other post - so basicly never.
Hence: **** off a few players that actually make use of the skill legally and remove it. (I favor changing the market though.)
By the way, I could swear there was a fanfest presentation, where the numbers-guy was commenting on this matter (changing how the market works), can anybody please help me find it?
. |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
28
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Posted - 2013.03.02 12:13:00 -
[37] - Quote
I must admit, I'm impressed by these people who have 20b in buy orders and 20b in sell orders but only 2 or 3b in liquid ISK and never default on anything. Bravo.
I don't know that we need to remove the MT scam, as it's already been nerfed into the ground (according to what some of my career scammer acquaintances say), but I do admit that gumming up the market trading reports with falsified and scammy information is annoying at the least. |
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
115
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Posted - 2013.03.02 14:16:00 -
[38] - Quote
exactly how does MT scam hurt this game to need changing?
Granted its more subtle than buy my charon, oops carbon scam but its not exactly stealthy. It usually has the tell tale sign of a magical sell order in the same station that says I will fill this buy order nice. This usually is not by coincidence. If buy and and selling in one station was the path to billions....there would a huge slump in freighter and transports sales lol.
Want to play with potential MT buys....gonna have to plan ahead really. I when I did full bore indy I had reserve items in storage. Real MT or scam no matter....the items hit thier accounts out of the blue (avoiding the set up to force sales of their tiems) and filled it till the order went broke. rest sold off as normal transaction. No skin off my nose, I got my easier isk before it was off to the .01 isk wars so it all came out in the wash.
Did this with contract baiting too. Omfg...this guy is an idiot. Has a buy contract and an item is less than one in station. Somewhere in the seconds to buy that item and refind that buy order....sometimes people find out who the idiot is and its not the buyer as that buy order now gone (and if terribad, you will even notice its the same person on both to earn that egg on the face), Now out of the blue contracti fills...made me some good isk.
TL;DR...if its too good to be true it probably is. |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
Damu'Khonde
12
|
Posted - 2013.03.02 15:50:00 -
[39] - Quote
Anthar Thebess wrote:
Its not about scamming.
Eve wants to be "real" - how many times you can do this kind of scams in the "real" world?
Yep. EVE wants to be real.
How many times can you fly in a starship in the "real" world? How many times have you died and woken up in a cloned body?
There's plenty about this game that's not real, and it's not just the setting. The Margin Trading skill isn't just for scams. Some people defeat themselves and fall for these scams, but I think a lot of you in this thread would be surprised to realize just how much of the legitimate market operates as it does only because of this skill.
What you people are crying about can't be 'fixed' anyway. There's legitimate trades that fall through all the time. People lose money trying to fill buy orders all the time. If I sell to a legitimate buy order and fill it mere seconds before you, guess what happens? You're left holding the bag with a pile of product you thought you were going to sell, and wondering what the hell happened. Depending on how much you paid for that product, you may still be screwed, even though no one scammed you, and Margin Trading had nothing to do with it.
Buy low, sell high. Don't buy too high and try to sell even higher because of your own greed. If you buy a pile of something and still can't sell it for a profit somewhere after a scam order fails on you, then you're very likely doing it wrong.
Find a likely MT scam? Pick it apart one sale at a time, using product that you purchased CHEAPLY someplace else, or had on hand. Keep selling one item at a time until you have all their escrow money and the order fails. Then laugh all the way to the bank. |
Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
4662
|
Posted - 2013.03.02 16:23:00 -
[40] - Quote
Domanique Altares wrote:Anthar Thebess wrote:
Its not about scamming.
Eve wants to be "real" - how many times you can do this kind of scams in the "real" world?
*snipped for brevity* Find a likely MT scam? Pick it apart one sale at a time, using product that you purchased CHEAPLY someplace else, or had on hand. Keep selling one item at a time until you have all their escrow money and the order fails. Then laugh all the way to the bank.
Give people at least some credit. They act on greed or lack common sense/price awareness when they fall for it, but they aren't totally clueless. The buy order will be set up in a way, that there is no possible way for anyone to sell anything to it and that's what the "problem" is. It's set up to fail at the first sign of someone trying to sell anything to it. Usually this is done by simply altering the minimum amount of items the order accepts. As a consequense the minimum payment will exceed the money stored in the escrow and cause the order to fail. |
Ile Disco
Airtight Investment Racketeers
12
|
Posted - 2013.03.02 17:13:00 -
[41] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:
The skill as it is used at this point is mostly scam.
Quoted the above because it's a lie, The skill as used is 99.9% legitimate, 0.1% is used to scam greedy people who need to be taught a lesson. You dont ban tornado's,talos and thrashers because a small amount are used to gank. |
Sigras
Conglomo
IMPERIAL LEGI0N
377
|
Posted - 2013.03.02 19:14:00 -
[42] - Quote
Ile Disco wrote:Mike Voidstar wrote:The skill as it is used at this point is mostly scam. Quoted the above because it's a lie, The skill as used is 99.9% legitimate, 0.1% is used to scam greedy people who need to be taught a lesson. You dont ban tornado's,talos and thrashers because a small amount are used to gank.
my only complaint is that i have but one upvote to give . . . |
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