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Rod Blaine
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Posted - 2005.07.01 11:35:00 -
[61]
Edited by: Rod Blaine on 01/07/2005 11:39:10
Aaaw damn,.
I hate this thread. We (avon mainly) almost had our dear Bhaal turned to the dark side before this thread came and drew him back into his old trenches.
Cursed is the threadstarter for that !
More seriously, the starting post is based in incorrect assumptions. Most of the arguments pertaining to rampant griefing are as well.
The incorrect assumption here is that the war system is there for corporation to strike back at parties that wronged them. It is there as much for parties to strike FIRST and do the wrong as it is there to retaliate.
Competition is the key word here. And competition in a game always ends up not jsut being a competition for resources, but for fun as well. I do agree tools should be designed to facilitate wars for a resource-competitive reason and dissuade wars for the fun of it, but this particular can't be tuned much further then it already is.
No instrument has but one use. And any use is as valid as any other in a universe unrestricted by the morals people adhere to in their real lives.
Wars are still aimed at corporations, not persons. Corporations in Eve either embrace the need to adapt, or they die. That is the setting of this game, and no other.
_______________________________________________
Yes yes, blogging is passÚ I know.
Rod's Ramblingz on Eve-Online
Solutions to your issues. |
Fred0
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Posted - 2005.07.01 11:39:00 -
[62]
The whole point of a MMO is the pvp aspect of a game. Not necessarily pvp combat but pvp economy etc. More or less everything you do is pvp in this mmo.
Right now alot of space and the majority of the pvp economy is played out in a sphere where pvp combat is unable to influence it, except for corpwars. In essence, EVE is only played to part of the potential of the game. Now this would be ok if there were airlock doors between the two different parts of the universe but it's not. The economic might of the empires affect the rest and as such you will only see empire wars increase in abundance.
Lastly, it seems to me you are not after the pvp aspect of EVE at all and as such I would advice you to find a single player game. You see, EVE is all about player interaction.
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Carl Jidona
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Posted - 2005.07.01 12:32:00 -
[63]
 Originally by: Joshua Foiritain
Edited by: Joshua Foiritain on 30/06/2005 14:56:45
Corp 1 is obviously rich due to all their mining. Which means they can hire mercs, learn to PVP as they can afford to lose ships or do several other things.
You say that like you know the corp in question; For all you know they could be a corp that is totally new in which case they may or may not have cash. Also just cause a corp is established say 12 months you cant say they are rich.
Untill you know what they do as far as income made per month dont assume that ALL mining corps are rich; Thats a Stereo Type.
Originally by: Joshua Foiritain
[Petitioning to have the system changed is of course an option as well...  .
You know any player ahs the right to petition for pretty much anything that CCP tells people they accept; Like you they also pay for the game.
Originally by: Joshua Foiritain
Also, why is that moaners like you always have to act like racists whenever their mining ops get ruined by pirates?
First off She is not being racist; Racism is based off of racial intolerance; She is doing what is called stereo typing which means to have a oversimplified conception, opinion, or image of something.
Originally by: Joshua Foiritain
Just because someone is prepubecent and has pimples doesnt actually make him a griefer, hell id say that person is prolly a better person then you.
We all know that age really doesnt mean anything in this game and/or if you have pimples or are prepubecent; You are going to have two type that play this game the people who like to play nice and the people who get off on the fact that they can do something to someone in game that they can't do in real life or basically being ANTI-SOCIAL.
Originally by: Joshua Foiritain
Not that you are a person though, you are simply a coward hiding behind an alt to moan about how you lack the skills to defend youself and want CCP do it for you.
Tough luck...
What you are doing here is what your accusing the person of doing to young people, Stereo Typing; I doubt they are a coward, they just prefer to play a different play style than you enjoy.
Would you be upset if say a corp made of more skilled players than you out of the blue War Decked you?
How would you feel if they were so skilled that every time you or your corps mates left station they vaped your ship and podded you? and when you asked them why they were doing it they tell you quit whinning you coward, unskilled player, were going to keep owning you till you either do what we want or leave the game.
Lots of time you have players who have devoted as many skill points to crafting that you have done to combat; Does that make you a nube cause you cant mine or build ships? No it means you get enjoyment out of the game in a different way than they do.
Is their play style any more valid than your play style? No! Both are needed in the game, they just need to figure a way to mesh that will still allow them to enjoy the game.
What this corp should do is if they can build ships is hire a merc force to guard them while they do their mining or missions and pay them in ship or mods that way if tehy dont have the ISK they can fal back on bartering that is alot cheaper than paying out in ISK. 
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Rod Blaine
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Posted - 2005.07.01 12:37:00 -
[64]
Look, corp wars are simple.
All they do is put one form of power against an enemy. That power being violence, in our current world oftenly known as physical force.
To retaliate the attacked have a choice of using any source of power at their disposal.
Those can be knowledge, influence, sheer numbers/population, resources (isk), or whatever else they can think of that will influence their enemy negatively.
Yes, Eve so far favours violence as a power because it's the most direct form and most obvious one. But that in no way excludes someone taking initiative and using any of the other altenratives.
Of course, if the total amount of power one corp can project is smaller then that of the other corp, the conflict will normally end in a loss to the latter. This fits perfectly in Eve fiction and Eve gameplay settings.
_______________________________________________
Yes yes, blogging is passÚ I know.
Rod's Ramblingz on Eve-Online
Solutions to your issues. |
Zyranyth
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Posted - 2005.07.01 12:55:00 -
[65]
Being the CEO of a merc corp myself I can enlighten you on the price subject a bit. Many merc corps fight for 50-200mil per week against pretty much any target. In our early days,
we fought Celestial Horizon for 50 mil per week, and they had
300 members at the time. So I do not see where the "way too expensive" comes from, as for 50-100 mil per week = replacement of 2-3 lost tier 2 battleships, or a hour or two
of a well organised mining effort. Now, Corp 1 are after all
miners, so they should know how to rake in money.
In the case of that Corp 1's members are greedy bastards that
only think about personal profits, and Corp 1 itself doesn't
have any funds of it's own, and the members can't agree on
sharing the cost of hiring a merc corp to do their fighting, they can always go join another corp. =p
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Distant Thunder - Born in Heaven, Bringing Hell! |
Fred0
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Posted - 2005.07.01 12:56:00 -
[66]
Edited by: Fred0 on 01/07/2005 12:59:25
Originally by: Rod Blaine
Of course, if the total amount of power one corp can project is smaller then that of the other corp, the conflict will normally end in a loss to the latter. This fits perfectly in Eve fiction and Eve gameplay settings.
I beg to differ about that in EVE today  Or maybe it depends on how you define power. There are plenty of protection in place for the weak (as in opposite of powerful)in current eve game mechanics. But that's not this topic I guess 
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Sun Ra
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Posted - 2005.07.01 13:17:00 -
[67]
Edited by: Sun Ra on 01/07/2005 13:21:23
Edited by: Sun Ra on 01/07/2005 13:19:09
corp 1: Expects to stay in empire space and make more money/zyd then they can in 0.0 and expects to be safe
corp2: Disagres
corp1: Thinks eve is a single player or co-op(players vs computer) game NOT a multiplayer
corp2: doesn't
CCP wants this game to be a multiplayer games, they want people out in 0.0 but end up giving into peopel who want a single player game + chatroom 
Frank made me do it |
Rod Blaine
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Posted - 2005.07.01 13:25:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Fred0
Edited by: Fred0 on 01/07/2005 12:59:25
Originally by: Rod Blaine
Of course, if the total amount of power one corp can project is smaller then that of the other corp, the conflict will normally end in a loss to the latter. This fits perfectly in Eve fiction and Eve gameplay settings.
I beg to differ about that in EVE today Or maybe it depends on how you define power. There are plenty of protection in place for the weak (as in opposite of powerful)in current eve game mechanics. But that's not this topic I guess
No, that depends on what you call a loss.
Losing is suffering damage. A total loss is suffering total damage as a corp. Not being able to force a total loss is a question of tactics, perseverance and will. Those are sources of power as well. Of course, there's a question of balance as well. But in general one could say that if you fail in total victory that is due to a lack of sufficient ability to compensate for an enemies' attempts at eluding the projection of your power.
But yes, I think this is off topic, since it makes sense.
_______________________________________________
Yes yes, blogging is passÚ I know.
Rod's Ramblingz on Eve-Online
Solutions to your issues. |
Sun Ra
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Posted - 2005.07.01 13:27:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Mistress D'Malice
Sorry but this game is NOT a PvP only game. But its the one playstyle that can influence everything else because of a crappy war system. "PvP Only" thinking is what holds this game back from becoming something special.
I still just dont understand how keeping certain levels of space safe for players who WANT to be safe is such a bad thing? But I also think suicide squads in 1.0 space is assinine.
EVE is more of a pvp game then it is a single player game, a player who just wants to play vs the computer = bad for the eve community, the only thing they are good for is ccp's wallet.
If i had made way they'd be maybe 5-10 1.0 systems for each race and the rest of empire would be 0.1-0.4 then 0.0 as is + the extra entrances too.
Frank made me do it |
Azrael Maxim
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Posted - 2005.07.01 13:31:00 -
[70]
But in turn what is good for CCP's wallet will again also be good for eve's community.
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Spaja Saist
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Posted - 2005.07.01 13:31:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Deja Thoris
Originally by: Spaja Saist
But then bullies always go for the weakest targets.
This is rich coming from you.
Part of a 200+ member corp and you get your ass handed to you by smaller ones. Our war was fought for a reason, it's not all grief play. If you are big you may present an easy target.
But on the other hand you have numbers to defend youselfs.
Obviously you aren't smart enough to figure out I wasn't refering to my corp. And in no way did you hand our asses to us. We were forced to stop the war by your friends in DDC. Otherwise we would still be going at it.
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Rod Blaine
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Posted - 2005.07.01 13:34:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Mistress D'Malice
Sorry but this game is NOT a PvP only game. But its the one playstyle that can influence everything else because of a crappy war system. "PvP Only" thinking is what holds this game back from becoming something special.
I still just dont understand how keeping certain levels of space safe for players who WANT to be safe is such a bad thing? But I also think suicide squads in 1.0 space is assinine.
The italic part is where you stray.
There are multiple ways to influence others in eve. Combat is the most prolific, but that is because it's the most obvious, and because people into competition and inter-corp hostility tend to go for the most direct means of influence.
It's sad to see that so little non-combatative or multi-role corporations take their opportunities to be competitive and influence others directly as their alternative to combat.
Because that ability is exactly why no space or corporation can be totally safe in Eve. Cutting off the ability influence one way, but leaving open the ability to influence by other means is no good. Stronger still, that would be a prime example of how to hold back Eve from becmoing what it set out to be.
_______________________________________________
Yes yes, blogging is passÚ I know.
Rod's Ramblingz on Eve-Online
Solutions to your issues. |
Maxine Stirner
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Posted - 2005.07.01 14:17:00 -
[73]
The real flaw here is that there is zero economic PvP in EVE.
The machismo ridden pvper crowd *****es and moans anytime something like economic PvP begins to be implemented.
They just can't handle it because they generally aren't very smart except that they do know the complaining on the forums works.
An examples of economic PvP would be counterbribing Concord officials. This is basically what Alliance members do, and the penniless nobodies hate it.
Another example is where rival manufacturing corps try to raise overhead costs on their rivals. The Yulai effect makes this pointless, but let's pretend for a sec that there was no Yulai. There is really nothing to acquire or lose except a few worthless ships. The PvPer whinage crowds are responsible for this. For example the poor pvpers couldn't stand a shortage of labs or factory slots and now that real estate market is gone. Anything that requires people to network with others or to actually talk to other people with fathomable diction or even solicitousness is opposed by your average self-avowed, safespot-camping, PvPer.
There will be no HQs to gain or lose. There will never be anything like vendor rights to buy and trade.
Do you really wonder why people hate successful manufacturing groups like.. I don't know.. FA or perhaps old fashioned groups like TTI? Because once upon a time, wealth actually meant something in EvE. It meant something to do with power. Now of course, the neuvo-riche are despised because their wealth is largely ornamental rather than useful.
EvE will never be an economics-focused strategy game again because most of that crowd have abandoned the game by now, and all CCP has left to work with/for is the CS crowd, which is responsible for the kind of on-the-level advertizing CCP has availble.
The only purpose playing EvE has left is to be shot at by or avoid complete strangers with minimal vocabularies or focus to their existence. These people are completely subsumed by abstractions. They wonder why no one plays where they are playing and subsequently assume it is a lack of "reward for risk," or something equally abstract. They will never grasp that it is simply them which people desire to avoid. It's not their gaming prowess that is putting others off, but their sheer obnoxious personality, or absence thereof.
CCP has been making it too easy to get along without having a faction behind one's name. Diplomacy is a dead art. Wars or alliances or careers -- that have aa purpose -- are an antiquated phenomena. Don't expect it to change anytime soon though.
EvE is just CS in space, so you might as well accept that or move on to another game. If you don't really get any pleasure in blowing up other ships (personally I could care less if it is a perfect stranger) - then you have to learn to take some pleasure doing nothing in safespots. The safespot-mining crowd takes pleasure in nothign but this.. so maybe they are worth studying. You can make a game of studying their communication habits I guess. Either that or find a new game.
Locking Times & Evil Asteroids |
Rod Blaine
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Posted - 2005.07.01 14:24:00 -
[74]
Edited by: Rod Blaine on 01/07/2005 14:25:41
Hmm MAxine, dont you think thats a little bit of overstating things there ?
pvp ers didnt whine about too little labslots, producers did.
There are possibilities for economic warfare, we have even used them. You simply wont know about that. But I do agree there needs to be mroe ways for that, alot more.
Quote:
CCP has been making it too easy to get along without having a faction behind one's name. Diplomacy is a dead art. Wars or alliances or careers -- that have aa purpose -- are an antiquated phenomena. Don't expect it to change anytime soon though.
Oh, and that, is nonsense.
_______________________________________________
Yes yes, blogging is passÚ I know.
Rod's Ramblingz on Eve-Online
Solutions to your issues. |
Krait
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Posted - 2005.07.01 14:43:00 -
[75]
I have a question.
Corp 1 has a war declaration on it by Corp 2. That takes time to go into effect.
If Corp 1 hires some a mercenary corp to assist it, does the mercenary corp have to do a wardec and wait for the timer, or can it ally with Corp 1 and get immediate wardec?
Thanks in advance.
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...been there, done that |
Rod Blaine
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Posted - 2005.07.01 14:46:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Krait
I have a question.
Corp 1 has a war declaration on it by Corp 2. That takes time to go into effect.
If Corp 1 hires some a mercenary corp to assist it, does the mercenary corp have to do a wardec and wait for the timer, or can it ally with Corp 1 and get immediate wardec?
Thanks in advance.
Both, the merc could even join your corp and be active immediately too.
But in realitly they mostly declare a counter war adn wait 24 hours.
_______________________________________________
Yes yes, blogging is passÚ I know.
Rod's Ramblingz on Eve-Online
Solutions to your issues. |
Dagan Bhade
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Posted - 2005.07.01 15:17:00 -
[77]
Corp Wars were designed to be open ended, and they can be used in a variety of ways.
Also, I might point out that there are other factors as well, for example;
Mining Corp 1 has been strip mining their current system, much to the displeasure of Mining Corp 2.
Mining Corp 2 decides to encourage Miner 1 to go elsewhere, and hires a merc corp to "assist" them.
Merc Corp 1 war decs Miner 1, and Miner 1 has the choice of moving, hiring mercs for protection, or fighting back. They could even try offering a bigger contract to the mercs to have them switch sides and go after Miner 2. I have seen it all happen.
Miner 1 probably could have avoided the whole thing by working out an arrangement with Miner 2 on system resources in the 1st place and avoided the war. Seen that happen too.
Corp Wars are NOT supposed to be fair. Life isnt fair, and EVE is pretty realistic in that respect. Corp wars are designed to let you use another avenue to accomplish your goals. Its a tool, nothing more, nothing less. How that gets used is up to the initiator. Sure, it may suck to be on the end of a unexpected war dec, but this is EVE, stuff like that should be expected.
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Blind Fear
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Posted - 2005.07.01 16:26:00 -
[78]
Corp wars, my version of PvP, can go when every mineral, component, implant, tech1, meta, and tech2 item is sold on market for no more then base NPC price.
If I dont get my version of PvP, you dont get yours.
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Galk
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Posted - 2005.07.01 16:48:00 -
[79]
My version of people (i mean pvp)
Take last night, guy i was helping...
Gets his ship blown up.. the bragging rights come flying up... ship blown up guy gets angry at the taunts.. says a few naughty things (just general profanity)...
Ofcourse they then petition as there 'so' offended......
Guy ofcourse with the chip then gets warned about his behavour.
Fact these guys all have bio's containing said profanity.. or blanked out explitives...
Somebody used the word bully earlier...
Situation above and what i saw last night reminded me of being back in the school yard... it was like the said bullies hitting somebody... picked on kid.. then getting up and taking a swing in rage.. just as the teacher was coming around the corner... and ofcourse said bullies all stand there saying they have done nothing wrong.. while gloating even more so as they have exactly the reaction they wanted and were looking for.....
Bullies or greifers.. or just plain pvp folks fitting into what ccp intended and ofcourse what gets defended to the hilt....
Ill defend PVP till the cows come home and the part it plays in eve... but don't expect me to like *******s like that.. been seeing them day in day out for the 8 years iv'e been online gamming.
Excuse yourselfs with all your petty arguments as you will, eve is full of people like this.
--------
"I have always depended on the kindness of strangers."
'A Streetcar Named Desire' |
Thanit
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Posted - 2005.07.01 17:47:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Berious
Originally by: Maxine Stirner
Another example is where rival manufacturing corps try to raise overhead costs on their rivals. The Yulai effect makes this pointless, but let's pretend for a sec that there was no Yulai. There is really nothing to acquire or lose except a few worthless ships. The PvPer whinage crowds are responsible for this. For example the poor pvpers couldn't stand a shortage of labs or factory slots and now that real estate market is gone. Anything that requires people to network with others or to actually talk to other people with fathomable diction or even solicitousness is opposed by your average self-avowed, safespot-camping, PvPer.
Economic PVP would be renting that stuff to the highest bidder. Not letting whoever got there first camp the slots indefinitely for less than newbie ship full of scord. Creating artificial monopolies REDUCES the scope for competition.
Artificial monopolies are an economic tool of warfare as well 
If created by players ofc.
If you get your grubby hand on 5 vagabond bpo's you can wreak some pretty large havoc on your enemies' wallets. to start with.
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Berious
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Posted - 2005.07.01 17:50:00 -
[81]
Agreed, player monopolies are fine. Unbreakable monopolies created by crappy game mechanics are not so good.
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Mattathias
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Posted - 2005.07.01 18:27:00 -
[82]
Hey all, I know next to nothing about corp wars, so be gentle...
Is there some kind of faction hit if you declare war on somebody? Shouldn't concord look down on corps that are constantly declaring war?
Otherwise, like many posters here I don't see the problem. Basically this is an annoyance, nothing more. Your experienced players should be insured and cloned and shouldn't have a real problem recovering from economic loss. That's assuming they've played the game like a single-player rpg and made no friends anywhere.
-Jeff
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Caoswing
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Posted - 2006.01.04 02:59:00 -
[83]
HEY!!! You cant call a corp Justice.inc My corp is called like that!! And im not joking.
Hey happy New Years!!!
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Vang Vorkain
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Posted - 2006.01.04 04:37:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Bhaal
Quote:
Corp1 could even go crazy, turn all those minerals into frigates and equipment and actually try PVP rather then moan on the forums with an alt.
Maybe they don't want to be told what to do?
Griefer corp warfare is bullying, no one likes to be bullied, so they are not going to listen to other bullies telling them how to play the game...
And as far as your option that they go play some other game? You really want that?
oh man u said it! hit the hammer dead on that one. ive hurd players say this over and over again! yea make the new players base leave...
u keep picking on new players witch= money to ccp....they leave to go play something else thats better= ccp no money no game!
thats why i think ccp is starting to listen to the higher % of players now! becouse with all this new money coming in they need to make them happy or they will lose money!
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F'nog
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Posted - 2006.01.04 04:47:00 -
[85]
Bad Necromancer. Go back to D2!
Originally by: rowbin hod
Fragm's Oversized Ego Cannon barely scratches the forums, inflicting omgnoonecares damage.
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Antaire Valiar
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Posted - 2006.01.04 05:25:00 -
[86]
If you dont like Corp wars, go play WoW
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Teblin
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Posted - 2006.01.04 05:31:00 -
[87]
Please don't bump old threads.
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