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Nightmare Obsolete?

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Cheshire Katt Tirpitz Innovations Terrible Space Warriors 17	Posted - 2013.01.22 04:59:00 - [1] - Quote Are Nightmares still a viable ship in PvP? It seems like they are seriously outshined by the Mach and the Vindi. Just curious on current opinions.
Liang Nuren Heretic Army Heretic Nation 2783	Posted - 2013.01.22 05:26:00 - [2] - Quote Hmmmm... it's probably viable, but I wouldn't use it. -Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
Noisrevbus 383	Posted - 2013.01.22 05:45:00 - [3] - Quote I think it's more a question of the Mach and Vindi having class-crossing features that warrant putting down the ISK for them, beyond the traditional role of a Battleship. Look at it like comparing Recon to HAC. HAC may have it's use but Recon tend to provide specifics that have an appeal outside their own immidiate use as a Tech II Cruiser. Many gangs want Recons, both up- and down in size. Vindis have 90% webs on a durable platform. It obviously (like the Nightmare) have other appeal, but that specific feature of combining tackle and tank open up a variety of roles that few other ships in the game can contend with. There are other ships with web-bonuses and there are other ships with decent tanks, but there isn't many ships with 90% webs and an upper echelon BS-level tank (essentially turning it into a capital-environment Recon if we assume support ships to be slightly undertanked in general as compensation for their role bonuses). Machs have Cruiser-like speed ontop of a Battleship tank, even the BC3 which have questionable role bonuses to being quick BS-turret hulls get both out-run, out-shot and, most importantly, out-tanked by it. It doesn't stop armor Machs from being used, but in that appeal the Mach doesn't do anything in particular that couldn't appeal for a Nightmare as well. So the popularity stem from how you can use it outside of a traditional BS. Rattlesnakes have some pretty cool potential too, but it isn't really class-crossing features: it remains firmly in the scope of a BS.
Iyacia Cyric'ai Red Federation RvB - RED Federation 30	Posted - 2013.01.22 06:02:00 - [4] - Quote Only time I've seen an armor mach is in an Alliance Tournament (and even then IMO there are better options for the points cost) or as a very expensive bait ship. There's nothing wrong with a nightmare for PvP - It's tracking bonus and the ability to use scorch make it a great ship. Having two utility highs and enough PG for 2 heavy neuts is great too. It's just not as "safe" an option as a macharial for solo work and doesn't have the utility of a bhaalgorn or vindi to justify it for fleet/gang work.
Noisrevbus 384	Posted - 2013.01.22 06:14:00 - [5] - Quote There is a somewhat famous lowsec group called Snuffbox that have a love for all things Machariel, who tend to run them on a regular basis, both with AC and with Arty on armor tanks. Some of the more established block-groups can be seen using armor Machariels to support Napoc gangs (though i fail to see it's appeal myself). Bhaalgorns used to be really popular but after Crucible it seemed to dawn on the general populace that suicide Triage Carriers had trouble standing up against suicide blap Dreads (the Dreads, among other, that love Vindi-support) in the immidiate post-super era. Don't live in the past, these trends are 2 years old by now .
BadAssMcKill Ghost Headquarters The Ghost Army 83	Posted - 2013.01.22 06:39:00 - [6] - Quote DHB made it work but from what I remember his fit was stupidly expensive and yeah I'd think it is outclassed by the Vindi and the Mach Starships were meant to fly~
Liang Nuren Heretic Army Heretic Nation 2784	Posted - 2013.01.22 06:39:00 - [7] - Quote Bhaalgorns are still popular in WH space -Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
Barrogh Habalu Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire 390	Posted - 2013.01.22 06:41:00 - [8] - Quote I'll just leave this here.
Verity Sovereign Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 365	Posted - 2013.01.22 09:14:00 - [9] - Quote The nightmare, to me, has 1 role: Incursions... It can also do most of the lvl 4s pretty fast... but its weak cap leads to a weak tanking capability, and in some missions you simply can't take down the enemies fast enough. PvP outside of incursions is limited: Limited to EM/TH damage, so its best against enemies that also do EM/TH damage, which hit its lowest resists, those enemies also often neut, which goes to its weak cap and thus poor tanking ability (its shield recharge time is too high to passive tank it well) PvP: Its slow (even for BS's), its very vulnerable to cap warfare, it makes you a huge target. Machs, Vindis, and Bhaals are much more versatile
Garviel Tarrant Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel 473	Posted - 2013.01.22 09:19:00 - [10] - Quote Vindi = Ganking extraordinare (although i would argue that the cost is not worth the added performance over a gank domi) Mach = Ultimate nanofaggotry Bhaal = Ultimate capnapper Nightmare = A laser boat you can use in shield fleets... basically..

Vilnius Zar Ordo Ardish 670	Posted - 2013.01.22 16:00:00 - [11] - Quote BadAssMcKill wrote: DHB made it work but from what I remember his fit was stupidly expensive and yeah I'd think it is outclassed by the Vindi and the Mach That wasn't so much the NM at work but more the mods, gang links and cyno. What also helped is that he went against IRON clowns. Amat victoria curam. Excellence in everything. Some guides that may be useful to you: http://www.youtube.com/user/OrdoArdish
Debora Tsung The Investment Bankers Guild 35	Posted - 2013.01.22 16:45:00 - [12] - Quote Cheshire Katt wrote: Are Nightmares still a viable ship in PvP? It seems like they are seriously outshined by the Mach and the Vindi. Just curious on current opinions. the price tag melts my eyes by just looking at it. There's nothing a million chinese guys can't do cheaper.
W0lf Crendraven The Tuskers 54	Posted - 2013.01.22 18:22:00 - [13] - Quote Garviel Tarrant wrote: Vindi = Ganking extraordinare (although i would argue that the cost is not worth the added performance over a gank domi) Mach = Ultimate nanofaggotry Bhaal = Ultimate capnapper Nightmare = A laser boat you can use in shield fleets... basically.. Vindi=90%webs + good tank (only 90% webs avaiable that has enough buffer to survive bigger fights) Mach=240k ehp + 14k alpha + decent speed (if like snuff do they are armortanked) Bhaal= capwarfare Nightmare= fulfills sadly no unique role in a fleet so its only for pve and 1-2 man pvp (gatecamp busting).
Perihelion Olenard Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 132	Posted - 2013.01.22 18:24:00 - [14] - Quote W0lf Crendraven wrote: Garviel Tarrant wrote: Vindi = Ganking extraordinare (although i would argue that the cost is not worth the added performance over a gank domi) Mach = Ultimate nanofaggotry Bhaal = Ultimate capnapper Nightmare = A laser boat you can use in shield fleets... basically.. Vindi=90%webs + good tank (only 90% webs avaiable that has enough buffer to survive bigger fights) Mach=240k ehp + 14k alpha + decent speed (if like snuff do they are armortanked) Bhaal= capwarfare Nightmare= fulfills sadly no unique role in a fleet so its only for pve and 1-2 man pvp (gatecamp busting). You're forgetting the rattlesnake. I wear my sunglasses at night.
W0lf Crendraven The Tuskers 54	Posted - 2013.01.22 18:26:00 - [15] - Quote I was just fixing posts, but: rattlesnake= pve,very little use in pvp (if mostly 1-2 man gatecamp busting stuff, where its worse then a nightmare)!
Maeltstome Mentally Assured Destruction 291	Posted - 2013.01.22 18:42:00 - [16] - Quote Nightmare is probably the highest DPS battleship in the game while fitting dual heavy neuts. Why does this matter? Cause MJD's work perfectly against a capped out tackler. ZOOOOOM.
Maeltstome Mentally Assured Destruction 291	Posted - 2013.01.22 18:43:00 - [17] - Quote Perihelion Olenard wrote: W0lf Crendraven wrote: Garviel Tarrant wrote: Vindi = Ganking extraordinare (although i would argue that the cost is not worth the added performance over a gank domi) Mach = Ultimate nanofaggotry Bhaal = Ultimate capnapper Nightmare = A laser boat you can use in shield fleets... basically.. Vindi=90%webs + good tank (only 90% webs avaiable that has enough buffer to survive bigger fights) Mach=240k ehp + 14k alpha + decent speed (if like snuff do they are armortanked) Bhaal= capwarfare Nightmare= fulfills sadly no unique role in a fleet so its only for pve and 1-2 man pvp (gatecamp busting). You're forgetting the rattlesnake. Rattlesnake is an un-viable target in most fleets - too tanky to burst down. That makes it viable to fly. If people don't want to shoot at you they leave you free to DPS at will. That's a strong ability. And the 'snake has PLENTY of dps...
W0lf Crendraven The Tuskers 54	Posted - 2013.01.22 18:53:00 - [18] - Quote The problem is that pure dps/tank is pretty useless in a bigger fleet (for a pirate bs), you want ships that fulfill a unique and usefull role so that they warrant their price tag. Nightmare/rattlesanke dont so they arent as usefull as the rest!
bufnitza calatoare Nex Angelus. Unclaimed. 59	Posted - 2013.01.22 18:56:00 - [19] - Quote Verity Sovereign wrote: The nightmare, to me, has 1 role: Incursions... It can also do most of the lvl 4s pretty fast... but its weak cap leads to a weak tanking capability, and in some missions you simply can't take down the enemies fast enough. if you cant take down npc's fast enough in missions before your cap/tank fails then you are doing it VERY wrong.
Maeltstome Mentally Assured Destruction 293	Posted - 2013.01.22 19:47:00 - [20] - Quote W0lf Crendraven wrote: The problem is that pure dps/tank is pretty useless in a bigger fleet (for a pirate bs), you want ships that fulfill a unique and usefull role so that they warrant their price tag. Nightmare/rattlesanke dont so they arent as usefull as the rest! To be fair the snake makes a good cyno boat.

Jerick Ludhowe Crimson HellHounds Drunk3n H00ligans 374	Posted - 2013.01.22 20:00:00 - [21] - Quote To be fair, calling the nighthawk obsolete is a bit of an understatement... It's easily been the worst field command for 6+ years with bad developers stating it's fine (even after drake implementation)
W0lf Crendraven The Tuskers 54	Posted - 2013.01.22 20:09:00 - [22] - Quote Jerick Ludhowe wrote: To be fair, calling the nighthawk obsolete is a bit of an understatement... It's easily been the worst field command for 6+ years with bad developers stating it's fine (even after drake implementation) Learn to read! (also nighhawk makes a awesome ham gang ship)
Jerick Ludhowe Crimson HellHounds Drunk3n H00ligans 374	Posted - 2013.01.22 20:41:00 - [23] - Quote W0lf Crendraven wrote: Jerick Ludhowe wrote: To be fair, calling the nighthawk obsolete is a bit of an understatement... It's easily been the worst field command for 6+ years with bad developers stating it's fine (even after drake implementation) Learn to read! (also nighhawk makes a awesome ham gang ship) zzzzzzz, epic fail on my part. About the nighthawk tho, it's just bad...
Mathrin Synthetic Solution Synthetic Systems 55	Posted - 2013.01.22 21:24:00 - [24] - Quote Only major use I see of the nightmare is a expensive version of foxcats.
Daniel Plain Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 782	Posted - 2013.01.22 23:06:00 - [25] - Quote if we are talking pvp, there is nothing a nightmare can do that a machariel or a cheap amarr battlesip can't do better. "I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF
Verity Sovereign Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 366	Posted - 2013.01.23 11:01:00 - [26] - Quote bufnitza calatoare wrote: Verity Sovereign wrote: The nightmare, to me, has 1 role: Incursions... It can also do most of the lvl 4s pretty fast... but its weak cap leads to a weak tanking capability, and in some missions you simply can't take down the enemies fast enough. if you cant take down npc's fast enough in missions before your cap/tank fails then you are doing it VERY wrong. Depends on the mission - like the Guristas room of Worlds collide (especially during that recent patch where the AI changed, and you pretty much got full room aggro all the time), you warp in, already in their optimals, they all aggro you, and before you have a chance to take anything down, you'd be taking a lot of DPS. Also, some lvl 4 epic arc missions have a lot of incoming DPS... although the MJD has made it easier to range tank, you then lose its stunning DPS. And yes, in those examples, its limited by damage type, EM is not a good thing to use... which is again a reason why the Mach would be better for PvE
Noisrevbus 385	Posted - 2013.01.23 12:25:00 - [27] - Quote Liang Nuren wrote: Bhaalgorns are still popular in WH space -Liang Mm... i both agree and disagree. They are still popular out of WH space too. Though the question is if they should be. There's obviously an incentive for them in WH space with the mass limitations. At the same time the ship grew popular in a low-Capital environment with Battleship support. The issue is that you don't need that many Capitals before the pressure on either the Bhaal or it's triage become significant. Not to the point that the concept of out-tanking your opponent under cap-pressure completely falls flat on it's backside, but you don't need more than two Dreads to meet cap-pressure with more than equivalent damage-pressure. That means you want hostile Caps on field for the Bhaal to shine, but you don't want too many - and the margin can be very thin depending on opponent. That also means that a major reason for the continued use of Bhaals is a question of experience, skillpoints or (wavering-) execution of damage application - that enable the use of Bhaals against slightly larger numbers of capitals when opponents may not be focused, heat-managing well or use proper tools. Two Moros are afterall capable of ~280k damage in 5s (~70k volley). Wether you can trickle one or two capitals into a WH can be the deciding factor, which also means that even though there's incentive for the use of Bhaals in mass-limited WH space on principle, i'd belive that higher order clashes in WH also are trending away from it. As always, what is popular and what is possible are two different things.
Noisrevbus 386	Posted - 2013.01.24 02:05:00 - [28] - Quote Fun fact: i posted in this thread before i saw the TM-article, W&T-thread or addendum in the CSM-minutes. Just as an FYI.
Liang Nuren Heretic Army Heretic Nation 2826	Posted - 2013.01.24 02:36:00 - [29] - Quote Noisrevbus wrote: Fun fact: i posted in this thread before i saw the TM-article, W&T-thread or addendum in the CSM-minutes. Just as an FYI. Hmmmmm.... I agree that it's possible to blap a Bhaalgorn. I just don't know if that's problematic in a wormhole. The mass (and people!) limitations tends to mean that every warm body you can bring is that much more important, so the Bhaal is naturally superior to all other neutralization ships. It feels to me like WH dread blapping is a lynch pin setup with Vigils (or similar) and Vindis being required for the Moros to function. Normally I would say this is solvable by killing the lynch pins... I'm just not sure how practical that really is given how extreme the disparity in hulls and people can be. I guess if I had to EFT Warrior up a counter it'd be Halo/X Neut Legions with stacked Kin/Thm resists. The tactic may work with Bhaals or Fleet Phoons as well - but the Legion should be significantly harder to hit. Really, that's not a style of combat that I feel qualified to talk about - I've never engaged in it because C5/C6 combat feels a bit blobby for me. I was simply reporting that they are in fact popular in WH space. However, the Bhaal remains quite powerful in lower class wormholes - both for the traditional zomgwtfneut and for cap killing if you can find someone that's really invested in their hole. -Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative. 7373	Posted - 2013.01.24 07:35:00 - [30] - Quote Daniel Plain wrote: if we are talking pvp, there is nothing a nightmare can do that a machariel or a cheap amarr battlesip can't do better. What can a cheap amarr battleship do better than a Nightmare? (Apart from amor tank, I suppose) Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread



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