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Raem Civrie
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Posted - 2003.07.12 10:38:00 -
[1]
This is a personal attempt to stop the growing inflation in the world of EVE, where people sell Bantam's for less than 10k and bloodclaws for 300 just to save their diminishing profits.
The real aim of this thread is to raise awareness of the true value of things. Please note that current price fluctuations and supply/demand ratios are not involved in these calculations. Those are listed in the brackets
By all means, comment on prices and debate on this. Only by unified effort can anything be achieved. Also, to those living in other regions than the Caldari State, it'd be much appreciated to hear the base prices from you.
Minerals:
Tritanium: 1 [1]
Pyerite: 4 [4]
Mexallon: 16 [14]
Isogen: 64 [60]
Nocxium: 256 [220]
Zydrine: 1024 [1024]
Megacyte: 4096 [5021]
Ships:
Bantam: 40.000-50.000
Condor: 47.000-56.000
Merlin: 230.000
Ammunition:
Bloodclaw: 1.500-2.250
This list will grow if well received.
Edited by: Raem Civrie on 12/07/2003 10:39:56
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Gantell
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Posted - 2003.07.13 15:32:00 -
[2]
Dude you don't want to stop inflation, you want to start some inflation.
http://www.taggarttransdimensional.com
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Raem Civrie
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Posted - 2003.07.13 16:47:00 -
[3]
That has to be one of the most idiotic things I've heard so far. By lowering the value of the isk you make it much harder for new arrivals to break profit from manufactured items.
It may sound appealing that everything will cost less, but guess what: you will earn proportionally even less from any player-run activities.
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wacko
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Posted - 2003.07.13 21:16:00 -
[4]
I am going to have to agree with Raem. In my corp who has been a huge provider for large amount of minerals for major corps. Along with huge amount of large weapon sales. We feel that we will not undercut our prices. You people do not seem to understand how much more money you could be making if you would be selling stuff at mineral cost or above.
I mean it may seem fun to maybe see a vexor for 6mil and then sell your for 5.9 mil, but if you added up your cost for minerals your making no monkey. You could have easliy just sold the minerals on the market and got the same amount. It does not seem right and it screws the market up.
I would like to see a large gathering of corps willing to sell at set prices and not break those set prices. I would like to see those corps buy from other corps in that same group.
So i would like to see more people like Raem and his efforts in awareness to create a new era for the eve universe. No nation or universe could ever live in a world where they have no money. This is what eve is turning out to be.
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Lexington Cabot
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Posted - 2003.07.14 09:01:00 -
[5]
I don't like this idea either. People need to be able to make lots of money in this game or else we will never have huge wars between corporations.
If everyone has a lot of money we can all play war and lose two or three cruisers or frigates each a night. Heck even a bs here and there.
Hehe, then one day we all log in and see the shipbuilders and resource collectors have all our money!!
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Lennier
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Posted - 2003.07.14 13:56:00 -
[6]
First i have to ask where did u get a quote of 40-50k for a Bantum from ? The tormentor ( Amarr version of the bantum) goes for about 15-20k.
I personally dont want to see price fixing come into the game. That said, Im not sure wheter many builders out there have realised this yet but ships have a natural base price anyway through insurance. Ie if prices drop too low it can be more profitable to simply insure the ship park in a roid field and the the field pirates blow you up.
Eg. An Omen
2.4 Mil (Build cost) + 1.35 Mil (insurance) = 3.75 Mil
Insurance Payout = 4.5 Mil
Therefore if the price of an omen ever drops below 3.15 Mil it is no longer worth my while as a builder to sell on the market ...i can make more money by losing my own ships ....
Is this an exploit maybe / maybe not, insurance was designed with the purchaser of ships in mind, not the builder. If they reduce payouts or raise the premiums any further no one will ever use insurance, you cant have it both ways. You decide ;)
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Kalhan
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Posted - 2003.07.14 14:50:00 -
[7]
We make and sell Omens by my calculation it costs 2.8 mill to make. I belive it coast no less then 3.7 mill.
This is a good debate. I think there should be a colaberation of corps. Like some sort of trade fedoration. We have Factions - Corporations - ( what would a group of corporations be called. )
Our corp make money off selling Amarr ships. I would like to form some sort of group. That would help make the prices of stuff stay above mineral cost and give some sort of profit to the corp.
If any other CEO's are interested in a group like this, post here or contact me ingame. I think this would be a good Idea.
In a group we could have one corp make one kind of ship or all kinds and one corp for ammo, ect...
And to keep other corps from lowering the prices. If we see someone selling stuff to low we ask them "nicely" to stop or the group goes to war.
Who else like this Idea???
Edited by: Kalhan on 14/07/2003 14:51:46
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Relic
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Posted - 2003.07.14 18:33:00 -
[8]
As it stands the only true 'low' price available for items are
1) recycle value - as this is below the build cost of things anyone reaching it must need their head examined. The sad thing is that I have created a price war with other producers and been able to get them to sell below this value !
2) Insurance value, many small ships such as probes can be purchased at well below their insurance value - the build would make more isk by destroying their own ships than selling them.
Relic
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GenX
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Posted - 2003.07.14 20:50:00 -
[9]
****geeeeeeez****
You can go to one sector, region or even one soloar sytem to the next. And find outragouse prices for one thing then goto the next system, and find it dirt cheap.
So, I suggest for you to goto one region to the next and buy and sell big time. Today, I bought 50k of isogen for 50 each and sold it in another region for 64 each...
50k*14= 700k PROFIT!!!
And I seen those blood claws for 300 and bought those and resold them in other regions to...
So, really, you are just complaing right out of your other end.
***big time roll eyes***
*********************************************
If one person is speaking out, others are thinking of it
Life is just a dream, till you do somthing aobut it.
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GenX
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Posted - 2003.07.14 20:52:00 -
[10]
Futher more, you are trying to make an prices go up, and I think you have a huge, I mean huge stock pile and you are to lazy to go look in other regions for better prices.
*********************************************
If one person is speaking out, others are thinking of it
Life is just a dream, till you do somthing aobut it.
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Kimi
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Posted - 2003.07.14 23:04:00 -
[11]
With the proliferation of factory slots we are seeing a lot more totally clueless "merchants".
Just yesterday I bought 40 250 rails guns at 60k - and recycled them for 78k of minerals. When my char reaches RE5 she will do even better on all the underpriced items. In fact I may do that and quit manufacturing - just buy all the stupidly underpriced items and recycle them.
The retail price "should" be around 2x mineral cost (at that price it takes about 12 ship sales to just break even on the cost of the BP). However, prices just keep going lower and lower as more and more people take advantage of all the factory slots now available. This has also had the result that many of us are paying LESS for minerals - we are now buying millions per week of Pyrite, Nocx, and Mex at prices way below NPC prices. On some items that cost spread on minerals is our ONLY profit if we try to post competing prices.
On the other hand, I figure that 3/4 of those now selling at such low prices will be out of business very soon.
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DJvGalen
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Posted - 2003.07.15 08:02:00 -
[12]
Due to lack of decent buy orders being around when I'm playing, I'm from europe, I sell minerals for these prices:
Trit 1 - I place sell orders
Pyerite 3
Mexallon 12
Isogen 57
Noxcium 160-180 - depends on buy orders in local system
Zydrine 1024
Megacyte 4k-5k - depends on who's buying
Someone really earned alot of money last week by buying from me, around 15k Jaspet, 50k Kernite, 150k Omber, 70k Pyrox, 30k Plag...
Some people must be happy that I decided moving around for hours to sell my minerals is not worth the extra few ISK.
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CCP please fix your patch so I can play with my corpmates again soon. |
Amarit Ska
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Posted - 2003.07.15 10:16:00 -
[13]
I'll buy as much Mex as you want to sell to me at 12 ISK each.
And if you're selling 500k units or more I'll buy from you at 13 ISK.
Also, to set the original poster straight, what we're seeing in eve is DEflation not INflation. Prices are going down, not up.
If this was a real economy the central bank would try and control it by adjusting the interest rate but there is no central bank in eve and you can't earn interest on ISK.
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Cell Satimo
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Posted - 2003.07.15 11:27:00 -
[14]
If you had a lot of cash, you could simply buy up the entire production of the cheap manufacturers and re-sell the items at the price you want.
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Join eve-webring.com to promote your site. |
Mr Chafe
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Posted - 2003.07.15 11:38:00 -
[15]
Although I am quite new to this game it seems to me that a player driven economy, on its own, is not going to work. The economic foundation of Eve is mining, most corps and newbies have mining operations. However, the more ore mined and the greater the efficiency of the mining and refining, the greater the supply or raw materials. More supply = lower prices, thus most corps start manufacturing goods from their mining to increase profit, but as so many corps are doing this there is a large supply, again prices drop, both from cheaper raw matierals and over production. Almost all profit will be destroyed, this is acceptable for vast corporations who can survive on low profit margins, but smaller corps are going to find it is not worth the time to mine and manufacture and recouping the capital costs will take ages. The only way this is going to change is to alter part of the economic structure. For instance, NPC corps should demand large amounts of supply goods for planets and human settlements (ie why not make, cars, home computers, consumer commoditeis) which NPC corps would buy. This would shake up the economic situation as there would be a fairly base level set for minerals and manufacture time. Maybe this already happens in some way that I am unaware, or maybe this has problems that would make it impossible, but it seems a good idea to me (I might even find my high Charisma useful :)
Edited by: Mr Chafe on 15/07/2003 11:38:56
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Amarit Ska
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Posted - 2003.07.15 12:20:00 -
[16]
It seems at the moment that a lot of people are upset that they can't sell the stuff they make for a decent or, in some cases, _any_ profit.
This is the way of things.
If somebody wants to make something and sell it for a loss that's their business. It may not be a good business. The only price to sell something for is the price people are willing to pay and that, at the moment is sliding because manufacturers are getting better at making more with less.
The only logical way to increase prices is to give people an option of what to do with their money. If there was an option to invest ISK and get a return, then instead of just ploughing cash into BP's and minerals for little or no return, there would be an incentive to invest.
However given the fact that the Eve economy model is already flawed (NPC mineral prices are propping up the economy) the chances of making it more complex and still getting it to work is slim.
AS
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Raem Civrie
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Posted - 2003.07.16 19:54:00 -
[17]
This is not meant as "price fixing", but a way to raise awareness of true value, mostly with newbies in mind who have NO idea what to sell the bantam or that shiny turret for
The bantam price is the base EVE System price
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Denamis
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Posted - 2003.07.17 00:21:00 -
[18]
would be badass if there was counterfiting to be made in this game
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Eleanor Scurvato
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Posted - 2003.08.14 12:35:00 -
[19]
 Quote:
If you had a lot of cash, you could simply buy up the entire production of the cheap manufacturers and re-sell the items at the price you want.
Done that before now :)
IMTC Elite Stilletto Interceptor
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Luther Pendragon
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Posted - 2003.08.14 12:58:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Luther Pendragon on 14/08/2003 12:59:39
As others have pointed out, the true price is either the recycled value or the insurance value. This values should be made clear in the actual game however, too many dofuses are losing money to other dofuses who buy their stuff just to recyle it themselves because the first dofuses didnt know the recycle value. Every time I get some loot, I have to check out how much I would get if I recycled it before I set the sale price.
The value of recycling is dependent on the players refining skills though, so thats a little tricky. The value of an item varies from player to player really, so just assume a player with near perfect refining skills as a standard.
It would be far more interesting if you made a list from these perspectives rather than npc eve system prices, 'cause those arent reasonable prices at all, only arbitrary, apart from the mineral prices, because NPCs do demand those, but they dont demand ships or other manufactured goods. Untill they do, its the recycled mineral NPC prices which count.
____________________________________
Taggart wants YOU. Join TTi!
*waves his hand in your face in the jedi way* |
Luther Pendragon
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Posted - 2003.08.14 13:03:00 -
[21]
Quote:
However given the fact that the Eve economy model is already flawed (NPC mineral prices are propping up the economy) the chances of making it more complex and still getting it to work is slim.
Im curious as to what would happen if the NPC mineral market collapsed.
____________________________________
Taggart wants YOU. Join TTi!
*waves his hand in your face in the jedi way* |
Marcus Grisbius
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Posted - 2003.08.14 13:21:00 -
[22]
I agree with some of the things in the original post. People should be more familiar with what it costs to produce things. Besides production is more than simple mineral value. There is a factory cost and time spent.
I'm tired of people coming to me and asking why I don't sell Antimatter M ammo for less than 20 isk each. Well, people, the value of the minerals inside is higher than that. Although with what is being said, mineral values are starting to deflate as well.
It should be, and actually is, cheaper to buy things from other people and specialize in one or two things. You could increase your profit margin by making deals with other corps to buy your products and you could buy theirs. Everyone thinks that being able to manufacture everything will save you money but it doesn't. You can't specialize in everything, unless you have a large corp, and do things for cheaper than someone who specifically focuses on manufacturing.
It's deceiving in practice because no one values the time they use working on manufacturing. People don't think about how much more they could be making by producing something for someone else. When you make something for yourself you don't make any money. When you build something and sell it, then you make money. Don't buy a blueprint of something you don't plan on selling. I know people have told me that I'm stupid and foolish, and I'll probably get some of that here, but it's true. You actually give up more potential profit than you saved by manufacturing everything trying to be self-sufficient.
Hopefully this patch will help people see that the manufacturing sector is a more specialized place than it's been given recognition for. The problem hasn't been CCP's setup, it's been the masses' mindset of not wanting to pay for anything. I'm glad the market is going to turn around on the producer side. Maybe people will start to value the finished product more than a copy of the blueprint.
<ends ranting>
Certainty of death... little chance of success... what are we waiting for? - Gimli, son of Gloinn |
Solaris Soze
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Posted - 2003.08.14 14:47:00 -
[23]
Quote:
Im curious as to what would happen if the NPC mineral market collapsed.
A few people would need to change their source of income... like 90% of all players.
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Liscia Thierese
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Posted - 2003.08.14 23:18:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Liscia Thierese on 14/08/2003 23:19:41
This is a fascinating and absorbing thread - the post commenting that the base item price is the recycling price is particularly significant, especially as I have been recycling my items for a while without making the logical connection to base price.
The single main problem in EVE's economy is deflation because at present, players are not placing an inherent value on their time, not to mention there is far, far too much supply. I have traded in minerals in the past but the volumes of prices in the lower price spectrum for certain minerals are very low at the moment i.e. less than 1k in some cases. Both Isogen and Noxicum have been good to me in the past but it's the small volume at the right price that is hurting.
As for purchasing items that are sold at ridiculously low prices and re-selling them at what one thinks is the correct price, glad to see that I'm not the only one who is doing this :P One of my friends done something similar in EQ (SOE, you owe me BIG time revenue fee for all of my advertising in various posts): he farmed a particular sought after item to the point where he and another guild member controlled the supply that they dictated the price. Then they just applied a little psychology i.e. when people called price checks, they set their price and soon it became standard.
The key is controlling the supply, which may not be possible in EVE with many items.
Patience is also a virtue. If I spot a bargin I'll won't hesitate to snap it up if I know I can eventually sell it for my desired price. Simply place a sell order at x price and set the duration for 1-3 months. Sit back and watch the ISK flood in (trickles).
Excellent thread and most informative.
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Relic
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Posted - 2003.08.14 23:21:00 -
[25]
Quote:
mineral values are starting to deflate as well
Very true, for the basic minerals, general prices all seem to have moved to a point where miners earn about the same amount for Sco, Pyro and Plag. This pricing is held together by the NPC's purchase of Tri, Py. If we lost this things would not be that good to begin with, but the main production corps are likely to become the next supporters, its just they will be paying 1 isk for Tri and not 2.
Relic
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