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VOTE: Removal of mineral price caps

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Krans Hopeson	Posted - 2005.07.04 09:54:00 - [1] Mineral prices are capped by NPC-sold goods: for instance, the price of tritanium is capped at 3.6 ISK by NPC shuttles. *Proposal: lock NPC goods to (some multiplier) (regional average cost of buying required minerals at last downtime).** It will then very rarely be viable to buy NPC-sold goods and refine for minerals. It will also be less impossible for T1 player producers to compete with NPCs. Yay or nay, please. Free markets 4TW! KH (And hopefully CCP will do something about this). -- "The only stupid question is the one you don't ask."
Feta Solamnia	Posted - 2005.07.04 10:25:00 - [2] according to some of the ideas here this could possibly be a VERY good idea. On the other hand, CCP doesn't like this kind of voting threads. Anyway, I'd definitely say YES because it may solve some problems and it's really needed for a really free market. On the other hand again (my third hand) I think that such a move would take a good deal of coding so the entire system can adjust (for example: insurance).
Dark Shikari	Posted - 2005.07.04 16:30:00 - [3] YES. Oh god yes. -- Dark Shikari: POS Consultant! Want your POS to make money like mine do? I've designed POSs that make upwards of 50 million a day in profit--each! Just call me up--no ubermoons required!
Rthor	Posted - 2005.07.04 19:31:00 - [4] if yes it could mean run away inflation.
theRaptor	Posted - 2005.07.04 20:12:00 - [5] Originally by: Rthor if yes it could mean run away inflation. That would be because to much ISK is in the system. The caps will not stop that, they will just make mining common ores unprofitable. That is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even death may die. -- Ancient "Dirt" Religious figure.
Darkshikari	Posted - 2005.07.05 00:46:00 - [6] Originally by: theRaptor Originally by: Rthor if yes it could mean run away inflation. That would be because to much ISK is in the system. The caps will not stop that, they will just make mining common ores unprofitable. The opposite--removal of caps = higher trit and common ore prices = HIGHER profit mining common ores. -- Dark Shikari: POS Consultant! Want your POS to make money like mine do? I've designed POSs that make upwards of 50 million a day in profit--each! Just call me up--no ubermoons required!
Krans Hopeson	Posted - 2005.07.05 22:10:00 - [7] Originally by: Darkshikari Originally by: theRaptor Originally by: Rthor if yes it could mean run away inflation. That would be because to much ISK is in the system. The caps will not stop that, they will just make mining common ores unprofitable. The opposite--removal of caps = higher trit and common ore prices = HIGHER profit mining common ores. I'm all for supporting the poor oppressed miners. KH -- "The only stupid question is the one you don't ask."
Harisdrop	Posted - 2005.07.05 22:40:00 - [8] The should not allow Items to be refined into minerals! Make them like Trade goods. There should be no melt downs!!! -------------------------- I am on alot of kill boards but the wrong column. I give the killmails to our enemys
Shiner BockBeer	Posted - 2005.07.06 01:08:00 - [9] No. Regardless of what price "caps" some people think exist, there are always some regions in which mineral buy orders are placed well above the "caps." Remove this and you remove my ability to get rich of the stupidity and laziness of others. Besides which, as far as I am aware, the only two minerals that actually have a "cap" like this are Tritanium and Megacyte.
Dark Shikari	Posted - 2005.07.06 02:15:00 - [10] Originally by: Shiner BockBeer No. Regardless of what price "caps" some people think exist, there are always some regions in which mineral buy orders are placed well above the "caps." Remove this and you remove my ability to get rich of the stupidity and laziness of others. Besides which, as far as I am aware, the only two minerals that actually have a "cap" like this are Tritanium and Megacyte. Isogen does also, I think. -- Dark Shikari: POS Consultant! Want your POS to make money like mine do? I've designed POSs that make upwards of 50 million a day in profit--each! Just call me up--no ubermoons required!
Krans Hopeson	Posted - 2005.07.06 04:31:00 - [11] Originally by: Shiner BockBeer Regardless of what price "caps" some people think exist, there are always some regions in which mineral buy orders are placed well above the "caps." Yes, and once there are no "caps" the there will be as well. Any dataset has outliers: it's allowing the mean price of trit to go anywhere the market pushes it that I want. Originally by: Shiner BockBeer Remove this and you remove my ability to get rich of the stupidity and laziness of others. There's always a plentiful supply of battleships sold at stupidly low prices by stupid people who think mining is a costless process. Buy them up and refine them. Originally by: Shiner BockBeer Besides which, as far as I am aware, the only two minerals that actually have a "cap" like this are Tritanium and Megacyte. Just because it only affects two minerals doesn't mean it doesn't need to be removed. I'm expecting the trit market to go crazy once people start building outposts and capital ships. KH -- "The only stupid question is the one you don't ask."
Macdeth	Posted - 2005.07.06 04:32:00 - [12] They all do - just use the capped price of one mineral (say, 3.60 for trit) when calculating the cap for pyerite in a module that is made of only trit and pyerite. Then, you have a cap for pye, even if there weren't any solely pyerite modules out there. Continue in like fashion for other minerals. Isogen's theoretical cap is 132.12 isk/unit, but it's only available in a few stations which are quite a hauling trip away from most of the demand, unlike the shuttles which are everywhere. Once enough people have freighters, though, that won't matter.
Krans Hopeson	Posted - 2005.07.06 08:07:00 - [13] Originally by: Macdeth Isogen's theoretical cap is 132.12 isk/unit, but it's only available in a few stations which are quite a hauling trip away from most of the demand, unlike the shuttles which are everywhere. Once enough people have freighters, though, that won't matter. Which brings me back to my original point that CCP need to do something about this if they want a viable trading market. Trading in T2 is fine as it stands, if you can spot the supply/demand distribution, but trading should be a reasonable career choice for a total n00b who doesn't have millions of ISK to risk on a single run. At current mineral costs, trying to compete with NPC T1 items is totally futile. Yesterday's removal of the Empire highways is going to cause a big spike in mineral prices (possibly after a brief lapse) lasting weeks or even months while mining corps who were used to the Yulai market find an alternative market (who wants to haul 2-3 haulers of trit over 10+ extra jumps - from Min. space - every day)? And there'll be a knock-on effect on production -- producers will have to relocate because the Genesis market's going to be saturated now it's no longer possible to just nip over there for a browse of what's on offer. Of course, once freighters come in (who knows when?) it should settle down, but until then the market's likely to be crazy. Basically, the mineral prices "cap" is an annoyance at the moment, but if the trit market spikes as much as I expect it to, it could turn into a fully-blown 'sploit, where it's easier to buy NPC shuttles and refine them than find a reasonably priced source of minerals. KH -- "The only stupid question is the one you don't ask."
Shiner BockBeer	Posted - 2005.07.07 05:40:00 - [14] My point, which was ignored, is that price caps are ephemeral. What your proposal describes is not freeing up the market, but imposing price limits on it. Again, I vote no.
Krans Hopeson	Posted - 2005.07.07 08:29:00 - [15] Edited by: Krans Hopeson on 07/07/2005 08:30:01 Originally by: Shiner BockBeer My point, which was ignored, is that price caps are ephemeral. It wasn't ignored, it was disagreed with. The price caps aren't ephemeral, they're real, and they stupidly nerf the market for anyone who wants to do low-end T1 production in Empire (no NPC shuttles in 0.0, and it's a long, dangerous way to take several haulers full of trit). Quote: What your proposal describes is not freeing up the market, but imposing price limits on it. WTF? How, exactly? The whole point of my proposal is to remove price limits, not impose them. I honestly don't understand how my proposal has a negative effect on the market at all. Could you please help me out here with some specific and measurable examples of how the current behaviour is more beneficial for the economy than what I'm proposing? Anyway, you're quite within your rights to disagree, whether I think you're right or not. KH -- "The only stupid question is the one you don't ask."
Selak Zorander	Posted - 2005.07.07 16:57:00 - [16] no but your play does put the market into a never ending spiral. Miners put up a higher sell order so they make profit; Producer then puts up higher sell orders so he can still make a profit; Miners buying things then pay more for items and then in turn sell their minerals for higher prices so they can still make a profit; Producer then has to raise prices again; which causes the miner to raise prices again; which creates a never ending cycle that will end up with the market getting so inflated that no one will buy things on the market, they will just mine for and build the things they need for themselves and thus completely removing the dedicated producer profession from the game (except those lucky enough to have a tech 2 BPO) Thus I say this is a very bad idea.
Dark Shikari	Posted - 2005.07.07 17:21:00 - [17] If tritanium cap is removed, it will eventually be better to mine veldspar than arkanor. Bad? I'm not sure, TBH. -- Want your POS to make money like mine do? I've designed POSs that make upwards of 50 million a day in profit--each! Just call me!
Selak Zorander	Posted - 2005.07.07 17:42:00 - [18] BTW, Just because I can buy a shuttle and refine it at 100% efficiency means that I can limit my trit price to 4isk a unit (9000 for shuttle 2250 trit recovered) does not stop you from trying to sell your trit at 4.5 isk to 10isk a unit. Its all about convience. So i want to sit there and buy shuttle and then go through the effort of reprocessing them, or do i want to have the trit right away without having to go through all that mess. If i have poor reprocessing skills (ie im a producer not a refiner) then yeah ill prolly buy your trit at 4.5 if nothing else is available instead of playing reprocess ***** all the time. So no there is no hard and fast cap that says you cant sell trit for more than 4 isk a unit or you cant sell xxx mineral for more than xxx isk a unit. So in reality, your caps already dont exist so why are you wanting something removed that does not exist?
K Raz	Posted - 2005.07.08 02:06:00 - [19] Why not make shuttles (and other cap-able items) work like trade goods? Lets say a station has 833 shuttles for sale for 9.600 A person buyes them all, and refines them - the NPC station then puts 833 new ones for sale, but at i higher price - say +10% It wouldn't remove the caps - but make them less prone to exploitation IMHO
Krans Hopeson	Posted - 2005.07.08 05:41:00 - [20] Originally by: K Raz Why not make shuttles (and other cap-able items) work like trade goods? Lets say a station has 833 shuttles for sale for 9.600 A person buyes them all, and refines them - the NPC station then puts 833 new ones for sale, but at i higher price - say +10% It wouldn't remove the caps - but make them less prone to exploitation IMHO Yeah, that might work well. KH -- "The only stupid question is the one you don't ask."
Domalais	Posted - 2005.07.08 14:41:00 - [21] Originally by: Rthor if yes it could mean run away inflation. I doubt that. Veld is plentiful and if prices rise miners will switch to it from other ores.
Queen Agave	Posted - 2005.07.09 03:14:00 - [22] Just have them raise the price on shuttles in the meantime. To be honest, I don't like any npc market supply, but the production time on my shuttle BPO is horrendous. It should be like 5% of what it is now.
Psionist	Posted - 2005.07.09 14:13:00 - [23] Originally by: Dark Shikari If tritanium cap is removed, it will eventually be better to mine veldspar than arkanor. Bad? I'm not sure, TBH. If that ever happens, I might have to sell off my 200,000,000 unit Trit stock.

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