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mrg29
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Posted - 2005.07.04 16:28:00 -
[1]
probably not a great time to post this with patch imminent but been thinking alot about how lvl4s work and the need to try and provide some balance between risk, reward, time and gameplay.
i am unashamedly a mission runner and hope to continue doing so after the patch but even i recognise that atm lvl4s are a license to print money.
the problems i see with proposed changes are :
if u make lvl4s alot tougher then u either discourage the solo player or make the amount of time required restrictive for casual players.
if u reduce the bounties and access to loot significantly u lessen the incentive for players to do missions in groups.
i know alot of forum regulars would like to see lvl4s scrapped or removed to low sec or 0.0 but realistically that aint gonna happen folks. lvl4s are here to stay.
my proposed solution to the problem is as follows.
leave lvl4s relatively untouched from a gameplay perspective as to make them much harder will create too big a gap from lvl3s and will make them unmanageable for the solo/casual player. reduce bounties and main mission reward so they are not the cash cows for solo players they are atm but make the time bonus work better.
atm the time bonus for most missions is irrelevant - it is so easy to meet even solo it ceases to be a factor. if the time given for a bonus was slashed significantly to something unachievable by solo players and only achievable by groups working together effectively and at same time the time bonus awarded was made very attractive then u have a chance to encourage group activity.
this would mean lvl4s were still manageable solo and retain the challenge for individuals but without the huge rewards. but if people are prepared to work together and to plan their way through missions in order to meet a truly challenging time limit then they get rewarded appropriately.
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EvilBlade
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Posted - 2005.07.04 18:28:00 -
[2]
sounds like a good idea  just need to hope ccp are listening 
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Siroc
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Posted - 2005.07.04 18:44:00 -
[3]
mrg29, 10 mil per 2 hours is not a huge reward. people who are running them solo have a lot of skillpoints and risking ships that cost hundreds of millions. Miner can make this much in 2 hours without much risk, Belt Rat Hunter can do so as well. Why should level 4s be nerfed like that?
Hell, i know couple places where rat cruisers respawn constantly and 200k skillpoint char flying tier 2 cruiser can kill 40k rats at 1 per 2-3 min rate with no risk. Thats 2 mil per hour. Lol, its in empire space too, people have a frigin giant secure cans next to the place to store the loot!!! Want to tell me that making 10 mil per 2 hours flying solo level 4 mission, risking battleship is still a money cow? This is BS.
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mrg29
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Posted - 2005.07.04 19:27:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Siroc
Want to tell me that making 10 mil per 2 hours flying solo level 4 mission, risking battleship is still a money cow? This is BS.
10 mill per 2 hours is a pretty poor return actually from lvl4s - maybe u aint doing them fast enough. when u add loot, bounties, rewards and timebonuses u can make significantly more than that. think u missed point of my post though mate.
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Siroc
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Posted - 2005.07.04 19:50:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Siroc on 04/07/2005 19:51:11
i am flying them solo on Typhoon. I dislike using siege launchers as well so it does take me a lot longer to run those missions then Raven who can just spam everything in oblivion. As for point in your post, you are saying to shrink rewards on missions and use bonus to give extra rewards for doing it quicker in group. While it is an exellent idea on its own, I dislike the part about shrinking rewards on missions themselves. After this patch, Ravens will not be able to do level 4s in 30 min anymore. Ships will have to be weakened to make room for antifrigate devices, which is cool. I like challenge. This means missions will take longer to complete. So I do not like the fact that I will have to spend 2 hours doing a mission and will get even less money then I do now.
PS. i used 10 mil as arbitrary number. it can be a little more, it can be a little less. lets look at long mission like Angels Extravaganza:
10 battles ~ 7 mil
20 cruisers ~ 1.5 mil
40 frigates ~ 2 mil
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9.5 mil from bounties
1 mil from payout and bonus
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10.5 mil. that sounds quite reasonable to me.
now loot is a different story, but you can't count it because i have had missions where I spent 30 min looting crap and end up with 2 mil worth of loot and there were missions where I have opened first container and looted mod that worth 30 mil. You can get loot in mission level 2 which will give you 20mil
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Teraille
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Posted - 2005.07.04 20:05:00 -
[6]
Sorry to talk about something that isnt directly linked to the lv4 nerf or anything, but i noticed you said you solo the lv4 missions in a typhoon, could you give me some tips on ship setup or skills to train because i also use a typhoon but get seriously owned whenever i try them :\ |
Siroc
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Posted - 2005.07.04 20:10:00 -
[7]
Teraille, don't want to highjack thread, you can check configs in thread inside SHips and Modules forum, there are few threads with a lot of sudjestions on how to setup that ship.
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mrg29
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Posted - 2005.07.04 20:48:00 -
[8]
siroc - dont want to turn this into a tennis match between me and u as that will lose point i was trying to make but if u gonna start quoting figures at least be accurate. a angel extravaganza can be done in under 2 hrs and gives approx 32 mill in bounties plus whatever mission rewards was - dont know where u got your figures from - a vengence can be done in an hour and gives 22 mill in bounties plus mission rewards. i accept these are top end missions. and u cannot just refuse to include loot while calculating average income as it is an integral part of mission income.
at end of day i dont have to justify point i was making about lvl4s generating too much cash it is almost an accepted fact thats why they are being changed - what i was trying to do was suggest a way that will keep the "omg lvl4s are bad" crowd happy while retaining the viability of lvl4s for the solo player and make them attractive to groups.
and btw i dont do lvl4s in a raven.
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Deja Thoris
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Posted - 2005.07.04 20:56:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Siroc
Edited by: Siroc on 04/07/2005 19:51:11
i am flying them solo on Typhoon. I dislike using siege launchers as well so it does take me a lot longer to run those missions then Raven who can just spam everything in oblivion. As for point in your post, you are saying to shrink rewards on missions and use bonus to give extra rewards for doing it quicker in group. While it is an exellent idea on its own, I dislike the part about shrinking rewards on missions themselves. After this patch, Ravens will not be able to do level 4s in 30 min anymore. Ships will have to be weakened to make room for antifrigate devices, which is cool. I like challenge. This means missions will take longer to complete. So I do not like the fact that I will have to spend 2 hours doing a mission and will get even less money then I do now.
PS. i used 10 mil as arbitrary number. it can be a little more, it can be a little less. lets look at long mission like Angels Extravaganza:
10 battles ~ 7 mil
20 cruisers ~ 1.5 mil
40 frigates ~ 2 mil
-----------------------
9.5 mil from bounties
1 mil from payout and bonus
-----------------------
10.5 mil. that sounds quite reasonable to me.
now loot is a different story, but you can't count it because i have had missions where I spent 30 min looting crap and end up with 2 mil worth of loot and there were missions where I have opened first container and looted mod that worth 30 mil. You can get loot in mission level 2 which will give you 20mil
1 mill from payout and bonus? My arse. I get 3 mill+ and I have a level 4 qual -12 agent (in lowsec space)
As mentioned above - 22-32 mill in bounties.
That doubles your estimates. It's good pay by any standards.
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Siroc
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Posted - 2005.07.04 21:07:00 -
[10]
hmm... need to run few missions for higher level agents to see if this is the case. my Rens agent must be skimping my pay.
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Ori Kal
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Posted - 2005.07.08 05:29:00 -
[11]
Originally by: mrg29
my proposed solution to the problem is as follows.
leave lvl4s relatively untouched from a gameplay perspective as to make them much harder will create too big a gap from lvl3s and will make them unmanageable for the solo/casual player. reduce bounties and main mission reward so they are not the cash cows for solo players they are atm but make the time bonus work better.
atm the time bonus for most missions is irrelevant - it is so easy to meet even solo it ceases to be a factor. if the time given for a bonus was slashed significantly to something unachievable by solo players and only achievable by groups working together effectively and at same time the time bonus awarded was made very attractive then u have a chance to encourage group activity.
this would mean lvl4s were still manageable solo and retain the challenge for individuals but without the huge rewards. but if people are prepared to work together and to plan their way through missions in order to meet a truly challenging time limit then they get rewarded appropriately.
to me this looks like a good idea - i see alot of ppl whining about lvl4s since the patch but very few people are coming up with reasonable and constructive solutions. this looks like one. hope Zrakor sees it.
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