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Bastion Arzi
BioLith Industries
Guild Alliance
8
   |
Posted - 2013.01.24 15:12:00 -
[1] - Quote
Hi,
Im relatively new to mining and have just gotten the skills to fly a mining barge.
I was wondering which to get out of the procurer or the Retriever.
I realise that the retreiver has better ore mining becuase it can fit two strip miners against the procurers 1, but the procurer has a better tank.
I've been told by people in game that the procurer is better becuase of suicide gankers. Just wondering what the general thoughts amongst the community are?
Ill be mining in high sec only for the time being. |
roxtarr
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.01.24 15:19:00 -
[2] - Quote
you'll make more money in a retriever and it wont take long to make up any losses from ganking.
pay particular close attention until you get to know the systems local chat, some areas are more magnets for gankers than others. keep an eye out for scouts, until you can afford to replace your ship with ease, warp out and switch belts when you see someone. |
Bastion Arzi
BioLith Industries
Guild Alliance
8
|
Posted - 2013.01.24 15:34:00 -
[3] - Quote
so procurer definetly not worth it then? |
Dave Stark
1666
|
Posted - 2013.01.24 15:41:00 -
[4] - Quote
look at the ship info
????
profit.
also the procurer has never been worth it, you'd have seen that if you'd have opened the ship info. i know you didn't open the ship info because you think the number of strip miners is relevant to the yield.
"100k for notifications of stupidity, i love this bounty system." |
Bastion Arzi
BioLith Industries
Guild Alliance
8
|
Posted - 2013.01.24 16:20:00 -
[5] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:look at the ship info
????
profit.
also the procurer has never been worth it, you'd have seen that if you'd have opened the ship info. i know you didn't open the ship info because you think the number of strip miners is relevant to the yield.
i have opened the ship info before but i cant now as im at work.
I remeber seeing something along the lines of procurer getting 5% shield strength bonus and 200% to ore yield while the retreiver got 50% ore yield bonus or something.
|
Elinarien
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
18
|
Posted - 2013.01.24 16:42:00 -
[6] - Quote
If you're on low skills then there's not that much difference in the yield between a procurer and a retriever. But the big difference - regardless of skill level - is the size of the ore hold which makes the retriever far more practical. |
Karak Bol
Crepuscular
56
|
Posted - 2013.01.24 16:45:00 -
[7] - Quote
Ok, here an explanation:
All Mining Barges have effectively 3 Strip Miners. Covetor hast 3, Retriever has 2 + 50% role Bonus (so 3) and Procurer has 1 +200% Role Bonus (Again 3). The Retriever has the bigger hold (full can), the Covetor another yield Bonus and Procurer has Tank.
If you are short on money and are just able to afford a Barge, take a procurer. You wont lose it to a suicide gank that easily. If you have some money: Retriever. If you have buddys and mine in a group: Covetor. But always fit some tank.
@Dave Stark: Stop trolling around, before the Mining Barge rebalancing you always claimed that Retriever "will never be worth it". You have no idea. |
Bastion Arzi
BioLith Industries
Guild Alliance
8
|
Posted - 2013.01.24 16:51:00 -
[8] - Quote
Karak Bol wrote:Ok, here an explanation:
All Mining Barges have effectively 3 Strip Miners. Covetor hast 3, Retriever has 2 + 50% role Bonus (so 3) and Procurer has 1 +200% Role Bonus (Again 3). The Retriever has the bigger hold (full can), the Covetor another yield Bonus and Procurer has Tank.
If you are short on money and are just able to afford a Barge, take a procurer. You wont lose it to a suicide gank that easily. If you have some money: Retriever. If you have buddys and mine in a group: Covetor. But always fit some tank.
@Dave Stark: Stop trolling around, before the Mining Barge rebalancing you always claimed that Retriever "will never be worth it". You have no idea.
Thank you Karak Bol |
Dave Stark
1670
|
Posted - 2013.01.24 17:05:00 -
[9] - Quote
Karak Bol wrote:@Dave Stark: Stop trolling around, before the Mining Barge rebalancing you always claimed that Retriever "will never be worth it". You have no idea.
before any stats were announced, i said that, you are correct. i did also add the caveat that it would only hold if the yields weren't extremely close which, oh look, they are.
however i fail to see how my speculation based on vague statements from ccp pre stat announcements have any bearing on this discussion.
"100k for notifications of stupidity, i love this bounty system." |
Jamie zulen
Wormhole Hunters
4
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 08:46:00 -
[10] - Quote
Basically put....
If some one wants to gank you in a barge, you can try... but 9/10 times you wont stop a ganker that knows what there doing.
Imho i would go with a retriever, that's what i use. if you stick to 1.0 - 0.8 systems off the path of "Lots of travelers" and watch out for that noob ship than wants to sit on top of you to give a ganker a warp in than your ok.
In the end, the extra cargo that the retriever gives you is less time warping to station and more time mining = Profit. |
Kara Books
Deal with IT.
346
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 19:09:00 -
[11] - Quote
Advice from a seasoned investor.
Start with procurer, first ship.
then move to a retriever.
then move to a Mackinaw
and then, finally move to a Skiff and take it to nulsec for the biggest ISK from mining.
My reasoning,
Why a procurer as the first ship, because your almost guaranteed not to get ganked, therefore you start your game safe and on solid ground, especially when you KEEP the procurer around for a year, you always have a ready mining ship in case you lose the retriever.
Why mack then skiff, because mackinaw is the uncontested mining champ for solo mining while the skiff, is perfect for nulsec and lowsec, procurer can also be used switching from skiff to proc, depending on situation, so that first proc you buy will be usefull througout your entire mining career untill it gets blown up or finally trashed or sold.
the Hulk and Skiff are endgame ships for miners, before they move onto difrent intresting things in the game.
Proc>retriever>mack>skiff>4Xhunks+orca>4Xskiff+orca |
Dave Stark
1694
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 19:20:00 -
[12] - Quote
Kara Books wrote:Advice from a seasoned investor.
Start with procurer, first ship.
then move to a retriever.
then move to a Mackinaw
and then, finally move to a Skiff and take it to nulsec for the biggest ISK from mining.
My reasoning,
Why a procurer as the first ship, because your almost guaranteed not to get ganked, therefore you start your game safe and on solid ground, especially when you KEEP the procurer around for a year, you always have a ready mining ship in case you lose the retriever.
Why mack then skiff, because mackinaw is the uncontested mining champ for solo mining while the skiff, is perfect for nulsec and lowsec, procurer can also be used switching from skiff to proc, depending on situation, so that first proc you buy will be usefull througout your entire mining career untill it gets blown up or finally trashed or sold.
the Hulk and Skiff are endgame ships for miners, before they move onto difrent intresting things in the game.
Proc>retriever>mack>skiff>4Xhunks+orca>4Xskiff+orca
just for reference, this post is full of bad advice.
"100k for notifications of stupidity, i love this bounty system." |
Arcaus Rotrau Romali
Liquid Lucifer Industries
20
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 21:18:00 -
[13] - Quote
I have one of each of the barges and I use them for their intended purposes, the Retriever when alone in hi-sec, the Covetor in a fleet and the Procurer when I decide to try my hand at lo-sec mining by myself. In a few days when I get into exhumers I'll probably only buy a Mackinaw since I'm in the retriever most often now. |
Kara Books
Deal with IT.
347
|
Posted - 2013.01.26 13:53:00 -
[14] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Kara Books wrote:Advice from a seasoned investor.
Start with procurer, first ship.
then move to a retriever.
then move to a Mackinaw
and then, finally move to a Skiff and take it to nulsec for the biggest ISK from mining.
My reasoning,
Why a procurer as the first ship, because your almost guaranteed not to get ganked, therefore you start your game safe and on solid ground, especially when you KEEP the procurer around for a year, you always have a ready mining ship in case you lose the retriever.
Why mack then skiff, because mackinaw is the uncontested mining champ for solo mining while the skiff, is perfect for nulsec and lowsec, procurer can also be used switching from skiff to proc, depending on situation, so that first proc you buy will be usefull througout your entire mining career untill it gets blown up or finally trashed or sold.
the Hulk and Skiff are endgame ships for miners, before they move onto difrent intresting things in the game.
Proc>retriever>mack>skiff>4Xhunks+orca>4Xskiff+orca just for reference, this post is full of bad advice. any one who tells you to buy a procurer or a skiff is trolling you.
trolling you say? sounds like you have good reason, perhaps you could elaborate.
- On a side note, when mining was rebalanced, I first started in highsec with a Skiff, T2 strip and T2 crystals AKA get the most out of each T2 crystal, then moved onto a Mackinaw with T1-T2 mix, all for experiment sakes, so far, solo on a 2nd window Iv mined about 1B isk in minerals and have gained a proper understanding of the new changes first hand, mostly to get my hands on information that would better help me predict future mineral prices, depending on seasons and hoards of other tidbits of information.
Perhaps you should elaborate on, this trolling, details perhaps even a fact or 10 would help us understand who is trolling who. |
Dave Stark
1710
|
Posted - 2013.01.26 13:57:00 -
[15] - Quote
Kara Books wrote:trolling you say? sounds like you have good reason, perhaps you could elaborate.
because the procurer is a terrible ship designed to fill a niche that simply doesn't exist.
i'll tell you exactly how many times i've encountered them in belts and give you a detailed description of what happened:
aaand, we're done.
"100k for notifications of stupidity, i love this bounty system." |
Dudley North
Interstellar Investments and Securities
7
|
Posted - 2013.01.26 16:48:00 -
[16] - Quote
Tanked procurers are of no use at all - and you wouldn't want to make a ganker cry would you?
Please fly defenceless Retrievers. Losses can easily be replaced from your local market.
Please ignore my previous advice to tank mning ships.
(Did I mention I now make mining ships?
They are very cheap.
Buy many, many of my fine Retrievers from the market since you will, of course, be needing lots of them.)
|
Dave Stark
1717
|
Posted - 2013.01.26 17:22:00 -
[17] - Quote
Dudley North wrote:Please fly defenceless Retrievers. Losses can easily be replaced from your local market.
to be fair, if you lose a mining ship you're either completely stupid or you're antagonising people.
so i guess the procurer does have a use, but i wasn't going to insult the OP by implying he was stupid. guess other people aren't as kind as me *shrug*
"100k for notifications of stupidity, i love this bounty system." |
Kara Books
Deal with IT.
347
|
Posted - 2013.01.26 17:57:00 -
[18] - Quote
its like mission runners who've never tried a marauder telling every one marauders are bad, buy this other ship thats convieniently manipulated. |
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
436
|
Posted - 2013.01.28 20:08:00 -
[19] - Quote
Bastion Arzi wrote:so procurer definetly not worth it then?
With low skills there is actually very little difference in yield.
The procurer fits 1 strip with 200% bonus to yield so equal to 3 strips
The retriever fits 2 strips with 50% bonus to yield so equal to 3 strips
The covetor fits 3 strips with no bonus to yield so equal to 3 strips
Where the difference comes in is the additional bonus per level of mining barge, and the number of mining upgrades you can fit. With max skills mining barge 5/mining upgrades 4 or 5. There is a big difference, but at low skills it is marginal. The large ore hold of the retriever is a huge bonus though, less trips back and fourth from station means more m3 of ore you will mine.
Procurer has a bonus to shield hit points and 4 medium slots for tank. two low slots for MLU's
Retriever has a bonus to ore hold with only one medium slot, 3 low slots for MLU's (you may need to fit a CPU over clock rig to fit 3 MLU's)
Covetor has a bonus to yield with 1 medium slot and two low slots.
With low skills the retriever can actually out mine the covetor by 30-50 m3 per minute. While the procurer Will actually slightly out mine them both with 2 MLU's at very low skill levels.(at least according to Dedaf's tool)
Mind you at low skills all three are between 800-900m3 per minute without any boosts. With good (near max) skills, good boosts, and a full flight on mining drones, a covetor can pull in about 2600m3 per minute. While the retriever will do about 2400m3, and the procurer will do about 2200m3.
A well skilled and boosted HULK can pull over 2800m3 This is not even max skills or boosts, but based on the skills of my miners. With mining foreman implant in the fleet booster. I believe with maxed out skills, maxed boosts with all the best implants, and a full flight of mining drone II's with T2 drone mining rigs you can hit over 3000m3/min
As you can see even with the same ships yield can vary greatly depending on skills and fleet boosts. Even with good skills, without boosts my 2800m3/min HULK is down to about 1800m3/min.
With maxed skills using mining drone II's and mining rigs, even the Venture mining frigate can hit 960m3/min |
Mistah Ewedynao
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
370
|
Posted - 2013.01.29 18:30:00 -
[20] - Quote
For a single player the Procurer rocks. Yeah, it's only a 1/2 can hold and you wil have to warp to station more, but at least you won't be warping in your pod.
But I too sell Retrievers also, so if it is bad advice you want, good ole Dave Stark is the man to listen to.
Nerf Goons
Nuke em from orbit....it's the only way to be sure. |
Enki Marduk
Maraque Enterprises
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 18:42:00 -
[21] - Quote
Elinarien wrote:If you're on low skills then there's not that much difference in the yield between a procurer and a retriever. But the big difference - regardless of skill level - is the size of the ore hold which makes the retriever far more practical.
Agreed. I use a Retriever for all of my mining. It is wonderful. I've got it fitted for max cargo space. Had a Procuror. It IS tanky, but that's it. For me, Retriever all the way. |
Kate stark
189
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 19:34:00 -
[22] - Quote
Mistah Ewedynao wrote:For a single player the Procurer rocks. Yeah, it's only a 1/2 can hold and you wil have to warp to station more, but at least you won't be warping in your pod.
But I too sell Retrievers also, so if it is bad advice you want, good ole Dave Stark is the man to listen to.
except my advice is spot on. you will make more isk/hour in a retriever because higher yield and less time warping.
also, the fact that people think you get ganked as soon as you warp in to an asteroid belt is so stupid it's beyond stupid.
i've been mining my whole eve career, never lost a single exhumer. lost 2 mining barges, one to me antagonising (aka going out of my way to be a complete ****) to some one during hulkageddon, and the other to an awox.
had i been mining in a procurer instead; i'd have still lost at least one of those ships, but the cost of one covetor doesn't even come CLOSE the the amount of isk i'd have lost over my long mining career if i'd been in a procurer instead of a retriever.
also, look at the volume mined in the dev blog; being popular doesn't mean it's correct but you'd have a hard time arguing it's incorrect, especially looking at the numbers.
Enki Marduk wrote:fitted for max cargo space
look at him, look at him and laugh.
Obvious Goon alt that's never mined a day in his life(!) |
stoicfaux
2400
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 15:36:00 -
[23] - Quote
General answer is Retriever due to the large ore hold.
Fuzzy answer, in the context of high-sec, if you fit a tanking mod to a Retreiver (i.e. a DCII) then a Procurer can mine more by using drones.
Procurer: 1170 yield + up to 395 from 1k m/s mining drones, 29k EHP, runs SB to perma-tank rats.
Retriever with 3x MLUs: 1275 yield, 10.8k EHP, uses drones to kill rats
Retriever with 2x MLUs, DCII: 1170 yield, 16.8k EHP, uses drones to kill rats
OTOH, you don't need a full flight of five light drones to kill high-sec rats, so you could add a couple of mining drones to the Retriever.
The Procurer is easy to fit, whereas the Retriever is really tight on CPU. If you're paranoid about gankers and don't mind making more trips to unload, have bad fittng skills, but good mining drone skills, then the Procurer may be a good option for you.
Even so, whether you use 2 or 3 MLUs, the Retriever is normally the way to go due to the large ore bay.
[Procurer, New Setup 1]
Mining Laser Upgrade II
Mining Laser Upgrade II
Small Shield Booster II
Drone Navigation Computer II
Drone Navigation Computer II
Survey Scanner II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II
Medium Drone Mining Augmentor I
Medium Drone Mining Augmentor I
Medium Drone Mining Augmentor I
Mining Drone II x5
[Retriever, New Setup 1 copy 1]
Mining Laser Upgrade II
Mining Laser Upgrade II
Damage Control II
Survey Scanner II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Hobgoblin I x4
Salvage Drone I x1
|
The Renner
Canadian Operations
Yulai Federation
16
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 16:16:00 -
[24] - Quote
On behalf of all pre-patch procurer hoarders I would like to recommend you fly one of those fine ships. Thanks. |
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
469
|
Posted - 2013.02.20 18:49:00 -
[25] - Quote
Before the change to mining ships the majority of miners used HULKs fit for max yield and cargo. regardless of risk, most miners did not tank.
So after the change do we really expect anything to change? You no longer need to use rigs for cargo as it does not affect the ore holds. so no rigs are tank or drone yield. might as well tank if you do not use mining drones.
As far as yield goes, unless you have mining barge 5 the covetor only has a marginal gain over the retriever. the Covetor gets 4% gain per level but the retriever can fit an extra MLU. An MLU II is 9% so at ming barge 1 the retriever out mines the covetor by 5%, while at mining barge 3 the covetor has a 3% advantage. Even at mining barge 5 the covetor only out mines the retriever by 11%. Not a big margin. Considering the size of the retrievers ore hold will save you at least 15% efficiency over hauling with the covetor that 11% higher yield is pointless.
Even a max skilled HULK only gains 21% yield over a max skilled retriever, and only 16% over the Mackinaw. That third MLU in the lows makes up for a big chunk of the difference in skill based bonuses. Consider that the Mackinaw has a 35,000m3 ore hold compared to the HULKS 8,000m3. 16% mining yield is only beneficial when in a fleet op where hauling is taken care of.
Fitting drone mining rigs and 5 max skilled mining drone II's adds up to 400m3/min depending on drone travel time.
Maxing out all the relevant skills takes a lot of time, but it is not until all skills are maxed that the yield advantage of the HULK really shines, at low skills however the difference is negligible. The retriever is the most popular mining ship because it is the best option. It mines only slightly less than the mack, and cost about 10% as much. |
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
469
|
Posted - 2013.02.20 18:56:00 -
[26] - Quote
Enki Marduk wrote:
Agreed. I use a Retriever for all of my mining. It is wonderful. I've got it fitted for max cargo space. Had a Procuror. It IS tanky, but that's it. For me, Retriever all the way.
How do you fit a retriever for max cargo? there is no module or rig that affects the size of the ore hold. Your choices are basically tank mods, yield mods, or speed/agility mods. The old way you would use cargo rigs and expanders to max the cargo hold. but now they have an ore hold that is unaffected by those modules.
I hope you do not mean expanding the tiny cargo hold to hold a few more crystals as that is not worth giving up 9% yield per low slot swaping an MLU II for an expander. Even rig slots are far more useful to add tank or speed/agility than a few m3 of near useless cargo space. |
Grace Rhys
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.21 23:58:00 -
[27] - Quote
Hi,
If I can give people another thing to think about. That is number of turrets.
While each barge has the equivalent of 3 turrets, the advantage that the Retriever and Covator has over the Procurer is that it can target multiple roids.
If you are mining Highsec, a lot of the roids will not have a full cycle on the x3 procurer turret so more micro management will be needed to reduce wasted cycles.
Cheers
GR |
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