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Vargur Or Macharial?

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Goose99 Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 43	Posted - 2011.10.11 14:52:00 - [31] - Quote Aamrr wrote: Mavnas wrote: If you were to drop the fall-off rigs on the Mach and replace them with a Burst Aerator, that would make the numbers better for the Mach. Also, if you're going to use a super expensive faction booster, why not give the Mach a three slot tank too and squeeze an extra TC on there. Not like the tank is going to matter in PvE with these kinds of DPS numbers. If you're using your guns to pop frigs, the Mach wins that with the RoF bonus, but really you should be using your drones for that thing. It's not really fair to allow the Machariel to use the same number of tanking modules as a Vargur. The Vargur gets a built-in shield boost amplifier and a bonus to its EM resist. The Machariel receives neither. He had a 3 slot tank on that Vargur, and 2 bil booster to make up for it. A Mach would still have 5 mids left after 4 gyros and 3 TEs. Vargur receives a bonus to shield boost amount, based on Marauder skill (not BS), and has fewer slot. So you're right, Mach can have more tanking slots than Vargur and still have same number of gank slots, because it has more total slots. Mach doesn't need an extra TC, it already has 3 TEs plus 4 gyros. Stacking one more TC hardly gives any real benefit. Not having to use a 2 bil booster, on the other hand... Enough of this 3 slot tank with a 2 bil booster nonsense. Give both real tank with more than 3 slots and less EFT warrioring. Cookie cutter Mach with no falloff rig gets 70km falloff, compared to 74km with 2 falloff rigs, and 72 with one. Same goes for Vargur (but of course, he got T2 dmg rig for paper dps). It's stacked to insignificance. CCCs for both Mach and Vargur. As an additional note, Mach has a base sig of 330 and scan resolution of 150, Vargur has sig of 420 and scan resolution of 85. It's not usually noticeable by EFT warriors, but matters in game. Rats hit badly. If you fly both like I do, you'll immediately feel that Vargur takes significantly more damage, too much to be just attributed to speed difference. Locking speed is also noticeably slower. Of course, true speed/sig tanking, as in Tengu/Ishtar, feels like something else entirely. tl;dr: Mach for gank, Vargur for tank. Use more than 3 slots for tank, or 2 bil booster to turn your Vargur into gank magnet.
stoicfaux 278	Posted - 2011.10.11 16:08:00 - [32] - Quote Goose99 wrote: He had a 3 slot tank on that Vargur, and 2 bil booster to make up for it. A Mach would still have 5 mids left after 4 gyros and 3 TEs. Vargur receives a bonus to shield boost amount, based on Marauder skill (not BS), and has fewer slot. So you're right, Mach can have more tanking slots than Vargur and still have same number of gank slots, because it has more total slots. Mach doesn't need an extra TC, it already has 3 TEs plus 4 gyros. Stacking one more TC hardly gives any real benefit. Not having to use a 2 bil booster, on the other hand... Enough of this 3 slot tank with a 2 bil booster nonsense. Give both real tank with more than 3 slots and less EFT warrioring. First, a Pithum A-Type MSB goes for 1.2 billion isk, not 2 billion isk. Secondly, you're miscounting slots. Mach: * 5 mids: 4 for tank, 1 for propulsion * 7 lows: 3 TEs, 4 Gyros Vargur: * 7 mids: (6 mids + 1 built-in SBA), 3+1 = 4 for tank, 1 for propulsion, 2 for TCs * 5 lows: 1 TE, 4 Gyros So that's 4 gank slots, 3 tracking slots, and 4 tank slots for each. The Mach and Vargur effectively have the same number of gank/tank slots. Third, regarding your "stacking one more TC hardly gives any benefit" for the Mach comment: 3 TEs = 4.2+69km falloff. 3 TEs + TC w/optimal script = 4.4+77km falloff. Are you saying that an additional 8km falloff provides no signficant benefit? Quote: (but of course, he got T2 dmg rig for paper dps). It's stacked to insignificance. CCCs for both Mach and Vargur. The T2 rof provides a 6% damage boost. If you understood how stacking penalties worked, you would understand that T2 RoF (and T2 Damage) rigs don't get stacking penalized. T1 RoF and Damage rigs, on the other hand, get hit with the fifth attribute of the same type stacking penalty and are useless. Three CCCs is an amateur move. If you're that worried about cap, then fit a Cap Booster and use the rigs for additional gank or to improve your shield resists. Quote: ^This is how a non EFT warrioring Vargur is fit. Although perhaps including a TC for 3rd range mod. Comfortable tank, very decent dps and range. "Comfortable tank"? If a comfortable tank is important to you, that's fine. However, don't run around telling people how to fit mission ships until you understand that 'gank is tank' and that you can manage triggers in order to run with a max gank setup and a bare minimum of tank. Tinfoil. It should be at the top of everyone's food pyramid.
Orlacc Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 21	Posted - 2011.10.11 19:05:00 - [33] - Quote Just wanted to say how happy I am that there is another Mach vs Vargur thread! www.eve-search.com/thread/1297376/page/all www.eve-search.com/thread/1442488/page/all www.eve-search.com/thread/1310442/page/all www.eve-search.com/thread/937927/page/all
stoicfaux 279	Posted - 2011.10.11 20:13:00 - [34] - Quote stoicfaux wrote: Quote: ^This is how a non EFT warrioring Vargur is fit. Although perhaps including a TC for 3rd range mod. Comfortable tank, very decent dps and range. "Comfortable tank"? If a comfortable tank is important to you, that's fine. However, don't run around telling people how to fit mission ships until you understand that 'gank is tank' and that you can manage triggers in order to run with a max gank setup and a bare minimum of tank. For the "comfortable tank" crowd, we can replace the Ambit falloff rig for a power grid rig, which allows the Vargur to mount an XL booster. That reduces falloff to 69km from 72km, but then the whole point of the MWD is to rapidly close the distance to quickly reduce DPS loss to falloff. Assuming the 69km falloff MWD Vargur can quickly reduce the range by 10km over the non-MWD 72km falloff Vargur, we get a 7% to 10% DPS increase over the non MWD Vargur. By comparsion, if an AB Vargur can knock 4km off, we get a 1% to 3% DPS boost. An MWD versus AB for a 6km net reduction should produce around 2% to 6% DPS increase. Tinfoil. It should be at the top of everyone's food pyramid.
Mavnas The Scope Gallente Federation 3	Posted - 2011.10.12 04:50:00 - [35] - Quote Aamrr wrote: Mavnas wrote: If you were to drop the fall-off rigs on the Mach and replace them with a Burst Aerator, that would make the numbers better for the Mach. Also, if you're going to use a super expensive faction booster, why not give the Mach a three slot tank too and squeeze an extra TC on there. Not like the tank is going to matter in PvE with these kinds of DPS numbers. If you're using your guns to pop frigs, the Mach wins that with the RoF bonus, but really you should be using your drones for that thing. It's not really fair to allow the Machariel to use the same number of tanking modules as a Vargur. The Vargur gets a built-in shield boost amplifier and a bonus to its EM resist. The Machariel receives neither. This only matters if you need the extra tank. Chances are you don't. That's the whole point of the massive falloff. That's also why my fail fit apoc can essentially consist of nothing but guns and a weak tank.
rodyas The Scope Gallente Federation 10	Posted - 2011.10.12 12:37:00 - [36] - Quote Yeah was reading this thread and saw some argueing over somthing I just realized. The tracking computer or tracking enhancer does meant there is a equalizier between mid and low slots. If have alot of mid slots then tracking compls/mag stabs. If more low slots that mean TE/mag stabs. I know tracking comps are more work in a way though, Not as nice as slapping on a decent passive mod and recieve benefits. only hiccup to it all I think.
Doddy Excidium. Executive Outcomes 9	Posted - 2011.10.12 14:34:00 - [37] - Quote Lyris Nairn wrote: Maxwell Thomas wrote: Lyris Nairn wrote: Get a Dominix. You can get over 900 DPS out of one, PVE-fit to tank over 1000 DPS against Guristas. You also save a lot of money. LOL I'm not interested in saving money. I like pimp mission ships to make iskies to fuel my PvP. This statement doesn't even make sense. If your goal is "to make iskies to fuel my PVP," then you should be concerned with ISK-per-Hour, and with Opportunity Cost in order to maximize your efficiency. Even if one of your "pimp mission ships" were faster at making ISK than the Dominix (which they are not), you would need to consider how long it would take that hypothetically greater ISK-acquisition rate to overcome the sunk cost of the hull and fittings. But whatever, it's your money spend it however you want. I was just trying to be helpful. Unless he loses the ship you are wrong, as at any point he can get his isk back. Unless he loses the ship any improvement to the rate he makes isk is raw profit. The only real way he would be better off where the ship doesn't die would be if he had another way to make isk from the isk (i.e. trade) that would make profit faster than the more profitable ship. 10 mil an hour profit off a 1 bil investment would probably be around the mark.
rodyas The Scope Gallente Federation 11	Posted - 2011.10.12 17:32:00 - [38] - Quote Was also reading the dev post, where DPS and range was discussed, Made me think of blasters. Seems like I wanted to make blasters longer, but weaker dps, and end up with minmitar guns, but I dont think its achievable. Uhm Sorry I really liked the way the dev kind of put that together and blasters are making me ********. Seemed those minmitar guns have a nice dps and range, and was hoping to get that kind of feeling with blasters. But the blasters range and dps ratios seemed hard for me to deal with. Would I be able to put 3 TE on a blaster boat, with one megastab, and get decent dps with its range? Hoping the native big blaster DPS lets me extend its range and still be worthwhile. Course can say I am lazy and should EFT myself.
Cipher Jones 89	Posted - 2011.10.12 20:19:00 - [39] - Quote With all 5's and t1 guns (scouts) the Machariel hits 1284 DPS, mine personally 1104. 4.2 + 69.1 gun range, 36+12 drone range. To me, the "never having to switch ammo during a mission" factor is the deal clincher. It costs more money but I have to work less. See what happens when fat neckbeards try to ride little ponies? The ponies die.
Marangwe Knights of Gallifrae Rise - Against 0	Posted - 2011.10.12 22:59:00 - [40] - Quote Does anyone ever fly a Vargur in PVP? I know its an EXPENSIVE PVP ship... but I was just wondering if anyone had any good tales to share? Same with the macharial.
Lugalzagezi666 15	Posted - 2011.10.12 23:18:00 - [41] - Quote Mach is best pvp bs available atm. Vargur has 11 sensor strenght. Enough said. On topic : I found mach much better in killing speed, 6 minutes on angel extravaganza 19 vs 25, but vargur is great enemies abound farmer and decent for drone missions (pally is slightly better in these though). I also found burst tank mwd mach much more fun to fly compared to capstable ab vargur - and fitting mwd on slowass vargur doesnt make much sense. They are great pve ships, get both.
Onictus Legendary Knights Vorpal's Edge 1	Posted - 2011.10.13 06:20:00 - [42] - Quote Marangwe wrote: Does anyone ever fly a Vargur in PVP? I know its an EXPENSIVE PVP ship... but I was just wondering if anyone had any good tales to share? Same with the macharial. I had a guy drop in on me in a Kronos with a Rook alt.......I managed to yell loud enough for a gang to get together, muster up and make it 4 jumps before he got me to 3/4 armor in a myrmidon. ....the reason? That rook couldn't jam EC-600s so that Kronos only got a shot or two in on on me, and oddly double plated myrms can tank a rook for quite some time. It was a nice KM for me though.
Mfume Apocal Origin. Black Legion. 24	Posted - 2011.10.13 06:44:00 - [43] - Quote Marangwe wrote: Does anyone ever fly a Vargur in PVP? I know its an EXPENSIVE PVP ship... but I was just wondering if anyone had any good tales to share? Same with the macharial. Some SniggWaffe once jumped into M-O with a Vargur in gang. They jumped back into Taisy without it.
1-Up Mushroom Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 13	Posted - 2011.10.14 02:47:00 - [44] - Quote Look at all these noobs, comparing Varg's and Machs MY REAPER PWN U ALL!!!! 5 Days In A Week... 4 Seasons In A Year... 3 Colors In A Stoplight... 2 Hemispheres On The Earth... ONLY 1-UP MUSHROOM!!!-áIf You Like My Sig, Like Me!
Headerman Quovis Shadow of xXDEATHXx 198	Posted - 2011.10.14 03:04:00 - [45] - Quote In regards to vargur's, i might buy myself one soon. Has anyone got a really good ratting fit Vs Serpentis? [img]http://i53.tinypic.com/bebnf8.jpg[/img]

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