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Natasha Kerensky
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Posted - 2005.07.07 21:58:00 -
[1]
Defenders are even harder to use now that all missles have been given a huge increase in velocity
I propose making them Passive Modules, that simply fire on missles coming from anything that has you targeted
Or better yet, give them an Operational Radius, which could possibly be incresed with a skill. Of course this might make things difficult in gang battles, seeing as how you wouldnt want to shoot down your gangmates torps....but Gallente and Amarr pilots would still benefit from it
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FORUMZ! Because none of us, is as dumb as all of us |
Andarias
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Posted - 2005.07.08 00:14:00 -
[2]
Or a defender launcher
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UnknownOne
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Posted - 2005.07.10 09:15:00 -
[3]
I think there should be an configurable defender launcher where u can choose which kind of missles should a defender launched at. And a missle inbound warning which shows u optical (by one red light or so)an by sound that an missle ist on way to u. (best would be when it could be configurated)
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thebold
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Posted - 2005.07.10 11:07:00 -
[4]
Edited by: thebold on 10/07/2005 11:07:36
A Passive defender launcher's would indeed benefit a cruiser or a battleship combat, however the defenders damage output would need to be increased to take out a torp or cruise, if it is not then the Defender missiles need to
A) Fire Fast
B) Speed increase and agility
B) If Defender HP hasnĘt changed, Have intelligence that once one defender has hit a torp, and its fired the second one it knows that that torp will die, and before that defender is to hit the first torp, the 3rd defender shoots for the second incoming enemy torp.
That would be logical enhancement, but only viable to use on long range assaults. Off course unless the defender launcher is ROF of 1 :)
But that would cause a serious imbalance to missile users, however nerf the ship setup of the attacking player.
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We do the Blowing up thingy |
Jack Da
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Posted - 2005.07.11 11:28:00 -
[5]
auto fire be nice to
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Cypherous
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Posted - 2005.07.11 12:07:00 -
[6]
I used an assault launcher with defenders to finsih what i considered a hard mission, it worked great for shooting down the cruise missiles that were coming my way but they sucked at shooting down the heavy missiles from the ships because the heavy missile managed to out fly the defender and still did damage, i agree that defenders need some love now to make them useful again.
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Chaotic Mind
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Posted - 2005.07.11 13:00:00 -
[7]
yeah, autofire to go
just activate the module and whenever someone is shooting missiles at you the module automatically fires the defenders
and for the last 5000 meters an automatic gattling gun tries to hit the incoming missile :D
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Noriath
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Posted - 2005.07.11 14:24:00 -
[8]
You guys don't get it - defenders are in the game because missiles were supposed to be missiles, but now the Devs want Missiles to be like guns, and there is no place for defenders in the world of missile-guns. But because you can't remove an item from the game without an outcry from the community they just nerf it into oblivion so nobody uses it.
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Dionysus Davinci
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Posted - 2005.07.11 15:43:00 -
[9]
 Originally by: Noriath
You guys don't get it - defenders are in the game because missiles were supposed to be missiles, but now the Devs want Missiles to be like guns, and there is no place for defenders in the world of missile-guns. But because you can't remove an item from the game without an outcry from the community they just nerf it into oblivion so nobody uses it.
Can I start a petition that tracking disrupters be removed then?
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Noriath
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Posted - 2005.07.11 17:47:00 -
[10]
Tracking disrupters are a whole different story since they are medslot items that don't take a hardpoint.
Missiles were supposed to be a counter to Electronic Warfare in the beginning, seeing how they can still be used when jammed, there are no effective weapon jammers against them etc.
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SpeedoMan
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Posted - 2005.07.13 19:23:00 -
[11]
FoF missiles you mean.
Well the problem is not with defenders, but with the missile changes the Devs made. Only way to fix defenders & restore balance back is to undo the missile patch. If you stop & think through all the balances, pros & cons, before in Exodus, and now... missiles made much more sense and were more balanced before Cold War. Missiles should not be like guns, missiles are missiles. Guns are guns. Different, very different.
Soban... red all the way through and through |
vixit
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Posted - 2006.04.05 09:44:00 -
[12]
LOL and again here's an idea :)
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=144663
need some thinking and no it's not uber, read it carefully
greetssss
VIXIT
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Drizit
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Posted - 2006.04.05 11:53:00 -
[13]
FOF missiles are not what they are supposed to be. The idea is to fire even when there's no target and they will find their own hostile target. Since you have to target someone to fire a fof missile and can't target when ecm'd, it makes the fof range of missiles just a low damage variant of it's non fof counterpart. For example, you should be able to fire a FOF missile even when you have no target. If there are no hostile targets, the missile will continue in a straight line until it either runs out of juice or finds a hostile. Even then, it may run out of juice before it hits the target anyway.
Either the Devs have misunderstood the nature of FOF or they are intending it to be Fire and Forget which is a totally different class of missile entirely. Fire and Forget is one that will still hit the target even when the target lock is broken by ECM or by the pilot themself. Since all missiles in Eve are Fire and Forget, it still makes the FOF redundant due to the damage limitation.
Anyway, back on topic:
The defenders are pretty much useless against anything but standard missiles and even then it's pure chance whether they actually hit the incoming missile.
1. They need a faster ROF and therefore their own dedicated launcher.
2. They need to be made a bit more powerful to take out medium missiles with two shots.
3. Flight time and speed needs to be faster and also rate of turn since they are almost feather light in comparison to normal missiles.
I can't say I am too keen on auto fire since this would instantly unbalance the game against missile users and the very slow rate of fire for missiles already hampers missile orientated ships like the Raven. Increase the capability of defenders but don't add even more anti missile defences. Using too many defences against missiles would provoke missile ship pilots to ask why there isn't an anti gun weapon since there is an anti missile weapon.
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Kelador Stormwolf
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Posted - 2006.04.05 14:13:00 -
[14]
Defenders simply do not work as they were intended to - even after putting 3 levels into the skill to see if increasing the level helped at all I actually came to the conclusion that it has made things worse. (The defenders now zip past the incoming missile and then chase it back towards my ship, usually arriving 0.5 seconds after the heavy missile impacts). Even worse, if there are half a dozen heavy missiles and one light missile in space the Defenders will all head for the light missile, and miss, and the heavies are ignored. I've given up on them totally for now.
Despite playing Caldari I would support the introduction of a point-defence anti missile gun system. These should have plenty of inherent drawbacks which should make fitting them a real choice rather than a no-brainer - for example they obviously require a 'dedicated' turret slot (whereas defenders can be fired from any missile launcher) and fire nothing else but anti-missile flechette ammo). By mounting an AMS you are therefore reducing your own offensive damage potential by a significant percentage.
They should also have high ammo consumption and / or high capacitor use (or heat generaton) for Amarr laser version - (imagine a laser 'net') ;) Therefore their use will be limited in extended engagements. CPU / grid use should also be high as it would require high processing costs to rapidly identify, prioritise and target threats.
They should have limited range (5-8km with rapid falloff), which limits the number of missiles they can engage at one time. If the incoming missiles are fired as a salvo / spread then maybe only 20-50% of them should be destroyed (depending on skill level / module effectiveness / number of AMS fitted vs. missile size / velocity), whereas incoming missiles in a 'ripple fire' mode will quickly cause the AMS to run out of ammo & reload / overheat / drain cap or whatever, causing it to shutdown and allowing the missiles to get through.
"I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it." |
TheBelgarion
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Posted - 2006.04.05 16:17:00 -
[15]
read Vixit thread its really good ...
defender missile are useless for anything <end of story>
a Challenge System for Eve |
Luc Boye
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Posted - 2006.04.07 10:54:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Luc Boye on 07/04/2006 10:54:07
Scrap the defenders alltogether and introduce "Missile Jammer", a mid slot ew module similar to tracking disruptor. So both and guns have valid countermeasure, make missiles miss or hit for less or lose range, whichever.
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lofty29
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Posted - 2006.04.07 11:31:00 -
[17]
IMO, make a medslot activatable module, like a tracking disruptor. Call it something like 'Warhead targetting scrambler' or something, which would affect the missiles speed / explosion velocity / sig radius penalty by 50%, making them en-par with tracking disruptors. Would definately beat fracking defenders.
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Originally by: Oveur
I see boobies! \o/
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lofty29
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Posted - 2006.04.07 11:32:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Luc Boye
Edited by: Luc Boye on 07/04/2006 10:54:07
Scrap the defenders alltogether and introduce "Missile Jammer", a mid slot ew module similar to tracking disruptor. So both and guns have valid countermeasure, make missiles miss or hit for less or lose range, whichever.
Damnit, I really should read entire threads before posting! 
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Originally by: Oveur
I see boobies! \o/
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Flawliss
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Posted - 2006.04.07 13:29:00 -
[19]
Or a Mid slot "Bay" That fires Small orb that when a missile locks on, you can drop an orb that tries to intercept the missile when it his say 5k, make it hit or miss. theres alot of different ways it could be done, but personally i'd just like to see defenders work and leave it at that.
As someone said the loss of a Hislot, thereby lowering your offence for defence seems a semi fair trade including what follows.
As far as Powergrid and cap usage, I disagree it should be huge, however i think the cpu usage should be pretty big, along with perhaps a low ammo count, 4-6 missiles? Figure it may take alot of computations to track a missile.
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Luc Boye
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Posted - 2006.04.07 16:17:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Flawliss
As someone said the loss of a Hislot, thereby lowering your offence for defence seems a semi fair trade including what follows.
Fair my *ss, tracking disruptors don't sacrifice offense.
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Hypo Psycho
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Posted - 2006.04.07 20:05:00 -
[21]
i like the idea of "missle jammers" but instead how about dropping defs instead and using another type of ammo "mag strips"
i cant remember what its called but its magnetic strips of metal in the air which screws up a missles targeting maybe this new "ammo" could increase a missles explosion radius/explosion velocity so you recieve less damage
the module and ammo attributes could be as follows
"mag launcher"
capacity: 10
RoF: 10s
"mag strips"
volume: 1m3
area of effect: 8k
explosion radius: -50%
explosion velocity: -50%
activation time/duration:5s
also things to be affected with skills could be RoF, effectivenesss and duration
just an idea
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Eximius Josari
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Posted - 2006.04.07 20:59:00 -
[22]
I still think its silly that missiles are any race's primary weapon.
~Victory is the weakness of the enemy.
Industrial Giants |
Drizit
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Posted - 2006.04.08 03:47:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Eximius Josari
I still think its silly that missiles are any race's primary weapon.
They are not. It's just easier to soften the NPC targets shields with missiles at long range before getting close with guns. It takes too many missiles to take out a target completely and the slow rate of fire makes it unlikely that you are going to do enough damage before they can get in close to you. Most PVP players can already tank a single launcher for a long time with a fair amount of skills and you still need a lot of skills to do any lasting damage with a missile.
I have standard missile lvl 4, Rapid launch, warhead upgrade, guided missile precision, Target nav pred all at lvl1 and a single NPC dark blood rat in 0.5 can still tank my single launcher long enough to pop my destroyer while they fly off with only 50% armour damage. That's how weak missiles are already. If you have a flak cannon or some other anti-missile system and you may as well remove missiles from the game completely.
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Hypo Psycho
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Posted - 2006.04.08 09:05:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Hypo Psycho on 08/04/2006 09:06:09
Edited by: Hypo Psycho on 08/04/2006 09:05:40
personally i use missles as a primary weapon
got all missle skills to lvl4 excluding defs, FoF, rockets
i prefer the way that they will always hit, none of that "maybe ill get a wrecking shot"
at range they suck because a player will warp away before you hit them (PvP)
but get in close and your still doing good damage where as turrets cant track very well at close range, (excluding blaster, pulse, ACs)
as for missles against NPCs a few volleys of torps easily take a BS
and after i posted my reply i tested the defenders to see how effective they really where and i found that my missles got taken down pretty much all the time, maybe a few got through, but his defender skills where at lvl4
so if you wanna be able to take down missles get training the defender skills
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Eximius Josari
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Posted - 2006.04.08 10:01:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Drizit
Originally by: Eximius Josari
I still think its silly that missiles are any race's primary weapon.
They are not. It's just easier to soften the NPC targets shields with missiles at long range before getting close with guns. It takes too many missiles to take out a target completely and the slow rate of fire makes it unlikely that you are going to do enough damage before they can get in close to you. Most PVP players can already tank a single launcher for a long time with a fair amount of skills and you still need a lot of skills to do any lasting damage with a missile.
I have standard missile lvl 4, Rapid launch, warhead upgrade, guided missile precision, Target nav pred all at lvl1 and a single NPC dark blood rat in 0.5 can still tank my single launcher long enough to pop my destroyer while they fly off with only 50% armour damage. That's how weak missiles are already. If you have a flak cannon or some other anti-missile system and you may as well remove missiles from the game completely.
I'm talking about the likes of the Kestrel -> Caracal -> Raven line
Railguns should be Caldari primary weapons, missiles should be their secondary, just like it is for minmatar.
~Overlord Eximius Josari
Victory is the weakness of the enemy.
Industrial Giants |
Luc Boye
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Posted - 2006.04.08 13:43:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Eximius Josari
I'm talking about the likes of the Kestrel -> Caracal -> Raven line
Railguns should be Caldari primary weapons, missiles should be their secondary, just like it is for minmatar.
You know, ship descriptions on those were innacurate since the game release. Missiles are caldari primary weapon, just look at ship bonuses. EW comes as 2nd speciality.
Even tho according to the "eve lore" gallente were supposed to be EW specialists, but its just not like that, its hybrids + drones.
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Eximius Josari
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Posted - 2006.04.08 20:39:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Luc Boye
Originally by: Eximius Josari
I'm talking about the likes of the Kestrel -> Caracal -> Raven line
Railguns should be Caldari primary weapons, missiles should be their secondary, just like it is for minmatar.
You know, ship descriptions on those were innacurate since the game release. Missiles are caldari primary weapon, just look at ship bonuses. EW comes as 2nd speciality.
Even tho according to the "eve lore" gallente were supposed to be EW specialists, but its just not like that, its hybrids + drones.
I know that, but what Im talking about is the type of weapons...each race should have a turret weapon as its main...missiles/drones/EW should be secondary weapons/roles on all but specialization ships, like Bombers, EW cruisers etc...Missileboats, Droneboats, and EW Platforms should be the exception, not the rule.
~Overlord Eximius Josari
Victory is the weakness of the enemy.
Industrial Giants |
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