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Cold War: Nerf of the small to promote the big?

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McBane	Posted - 2005.07.10 12:04:00 - [1] I see this patch as a bit nerf of small players and corps, pushing them out of the game a bit. Many of the new skills are a bit of a joke, theyÆve increase requirements for kit then introduced a skill to bring it back down û what was the point? This has just caused experienced players to spend a few weeks training to get back to where they were and increased the time newbies take to become effective. The mission nerf was overly excessive in my opinion, the Raven was nerfed, the rats were beefed up and the bounty halved. I liked the missile changes, but to go on and nerf missions to this extent was a bad move imho. This has in no way promoted team play of missions, since the main reason people did them solo before was to maximize profit, in a team the rewards now stink where they were just bad before. Solo the risk of 15mil for the top mission with a battleship worth between 150mil basic setup to 750mil good setup is way out of proportion. If the point of this was to move people away from mission running and into more PVP and such then I really donÆt get it. People did level 4 missions because either it beat grinding away mining asteroids for hours or they did not have the time for anything else a lot of the time and level 4 mission were the most fun thing to do in a limited amount of time. Now, both of these reasons have been nerfed, itÆs not quick and easy to have a go at a level 4 mission as you, at least on the top ones, require more than one player and twice as much time û plus the time involved in organising someone to come help. Niether is it a viable means to make good isk over mining anymore. Do all these people go PVP now instead, I very much doubt it! Level 4 missions brought life to this game, gave the many players wondering what to do, something to do. After the Exodus patch, new player records were set daily as people had great fun doing level 4 missions for, finally, a decent reward and an alternative to mining. This patch has undone this, and thus weÆve not seen an influx of players. This game is getting ever more expensive in terms of isk needed to play it because of tech 2 kit and ships. Tech 2 is generating massive amounts of isk for a very few number of players/corps, a T2 cap chargers for example cost about 300k to make, yet sell for 10-15mil. This generates vast wealth for those players/corps lucky enough to have them. How do the small player/corp compete with that. PVP is becoming ever more T2, and nobody wantsto PVP on an unequal footing so that means T2 is a becoming an increasing requirement to PVP now. So how to people fund T2 kit? Well, if youÆre not a lucky T2 BPO owner, and donÆt have access to mine high-end ores, level 4 mission running was the answer. Now itÆs not so itÆs back to the grind mining scenario everyone was so pleased to get away from. People kept slating level 4 missions as having little risk vs reward and inflating the economy. Let me ask this, where is the risk in sitting in a high sec system manufacturing tech 2 equipment making hundreds of millions of isk per week and what does this do to inflation? CCP have nerfed the means for the average non megacorp or T2 BPO endowed to get involved with the rich guys and have some fun. This patch seems to be about pushing out the little guys, giving them and newbies an ever higher mountain to climb while providing new toys for the ultra-wealthy to play with. Surely this is not good for the game? I personally think the T2 BPO system is flawed and is the main factor in the ever inflating eve economy. Here is a system that is giving out vast wealth with no risk or even effort to get it, just luck. It is then making these so limited and thus so rare that prices are kept hugely inflated giving a few access to vast wealth not available to other players. Cue flames from wealthy corp members and T2 BPO owners...
Golden Ratio	Posted - 2005.07.10 12:05:00 - [2] Edited by: Golden Ratio on 10/07/2005 12:07:53 I disagree, except for the part about the BPO distribution system being flawed. ---------------------------- The Golden Ratio has spoken.
MadGaz	Posted - 2005.07.10 12:07:00 - [3] Originally by: Golden Ratio I disagree. /signed ------------------------------------------
ATRADE	Posted - 2005.07.10 12:08:00 - [4] also ready my deflation post. this patch even makes billionairs more wealthy cause of the increased worth of money.
McBane	Posted - 2005.07.10 12:12:00 - [5] So you think level 4 missions twice as hard and half as profitable promote team play. So think that nerfing level 4 missions promotes PVP. So you think making isk harder to get for the masses will give them more isk and time to spend on PVP? So you think T2 BPOs bringing in huge amounts of isk for zero risk to a limited number of people has no affect on the economy or inflation. Ok, but i disagree!
ParMizaN	Posted - 2005.07.10 12:17:00 - [6] Originally by: McBane So you think level 4 missions twice as hard and half as profitable promote team play. So think that nerfing level 4 missions promotes PVP. yes and yes.. because being able to solo lvl 4s before the patch was ruining the game, especially since those players couldnt be killed (without significant penalty) as they were in hi sec ------------------ Run and fall or stand in line, in the end what's your's is mine
ATRADE	Posted - 2005.07.10 12:19:00 - [7] Originally by: ParMizaN yes and yes.. because being able to solo lvl 4s before the patch was ruining the game, especially since those players couldnt be killed (without significant penalty) as they were in hi sec not for me. this patch ruined my game now.
MadGaz	Posted - 2005.07.10 12:21:00 - [8] Originally by: ATRADE Originally by: ParMizaN yes and yes.. because being able to solo lvl 4s before the patch was ruining the game, especially since those players couldnt be killed (without significant penalty) as they were in hi sec not for me. this patch ruined my game now. But you've only been playing for less than a month in a npc corp?? ------------------------------------------
hezie99	Posted - 2005.07.10 12:22:00 - [9] Edited by: hezie99 on 10/07/2005 12:23:09 sort of agree only thing that annoys me is the missle nerf but hey im a raven pilot. i think they should of left the lvl4's the way they are brought the level 5's out and made them as hard as a 6/10 complex or something so it takes more than 1 person but has a very very high reward mean tbh i just sneak into some 0.0 and hunt rats to compensate for the isk loss but level 4's where still handy tbh its just changed the game to suit pirates who carnt kill anything but n00bs
aeti	Posted - 2005.07.10 12:28:00 - [10] spawning battleships on demand in a 1.0 is just so wrong the most secure systems in game having legions of pirates invading on a daily basis
Golden Ratio	Posted - 2005.07.10 12:31:00 - [11] Originally by: hezie99 Edited by: hezie99 on 10/07/2005 12:23:09 sort of agree only thing that annoys me is the missle nerf but hey im a raven pilot. i think they should of left the lvl4's the way they are brought the level 5's out and made them as hard as a 6/10 complex or something so it takes more than 1 person but has a very very high reward mean tbh i just sneak into some 0.0 and hunt rats to compensate for the isk loss but level 4's where still handy tbh its just changed the game to suit pirates who carnt kill anything but n00bs You have a distorted or non-existant veiw of "balance." ---------------------------- The Golden Ratio has spoken.
McBane	Posted - 2005.07.10 12:31:00 - [12] Originally by: aeti spawning battleships on demand in a 1.0 is just so wrong the most secure systems in game having legions of pirates invading on a daily basis Totally agree, but that's not really anything to do with this post!
Trak Cranker	Posted - 2005.07.10 12:37:00 - [13] Agree on the T2 BPO stuff. Right now CCP are playing more and more isk into the already filthy rich production cartels. Increase the proliferation of the BPOs and increase the demand from the low level material suppliers. Right now the isk flow is isnt running in circles, but onto the pockets of NAGA and the likes. Not to mention the limits a lot of players are feeling in regards to their gameplay. Right now tons of producers and POS owners are feeling left out and abandoning their professions, while other organisations have months of waiting lists for T2 equipment. Not saying that everything should be insta-available. But a wider distribution would make that part of the game a lot more interesting to a lot of players. And increase the competition aspect of it to boot. And ATRADE; Stop spouting your nonsense in every thread that has the word ISK in it. And give me your stuff on the way out, please? Trak Cranker
Deja Thoris	Posted - 2005.07.10 12:42:00 - [14] @ The OP - your post boils down yo one line CCP have nerfed the means for the average non megacorp or T2 BPO endowed to get involved with the rich guys and have some fun. What constitutes fun? If being "rich" is the only way to have "fun" then I feel sorry for you.
Exarch	Posted - 2005.07.10 12:45:00 - [15] T2 bpos are very well spread out, only a very few items sell for crazy prices.. and that's because everyone wants them. most t2 bpos make little or no money at all.
McBane	Posted - 2005.07.10 12:51:00 - [16] Originally by: Deja Thoris @ The OP - your post boils down yo one line CCP have nerfed the means for the average non megacorp or T2 BPO endowed to get involved with the rich guys and have some fun. What constitutes fun? If being "rich" is the only way to have "fun" then I feel sorry for you. Umm, read the other parts of my post - PVP is fun, but that fun requires isk and with expensive T2 ships and equipment, it's becoming hard to hav any fun in a Tech 1 ship with Tech 1 kit since going up against a HAC laden with T2 and high named equipment leaves you no chance of success, which takes away fun. So to have fun and play on the same level, you increasingly need isk to fund your fun, and getting isk is increasingly becoming no fun. Please let me know other ways I can have fun without requiring a lot of isk or shutting myself out of most of the game....
Deja Thoris	Posted - 2005.07.10 12:52:00 - [17] Originally by: McBane Originally by: Deja Thoris @ The OP - your post boils down yo one line CCP have nerfed the means for the average non megacorp or T2 BPO endowed to get involved with the rich guys and have some fun. What constitutes fun? If being "rich" is the only way to have "fun" then I feel sorry for you. Umm, read the other parts of my post - PVP is fun, but that fun requires isk and with expensive T2 ships and equipment, it's becoming hard to hav any fun in a Tech 1 ship with Tech 1 kit since going up against a HAC laden with T2 and high named equipment leaves you no chance of success, which takes away fun. So to have fun and play on the same level, you increasingly need isk to fund your fun, and getting isk is increasingly becoming no fun. Please let me know other ways I can have fun without requiring a lot of isk or shutting myself out of most of the game.... PvP on a budget A few friends A cruiser for each person. Kit out with stock gear. 10mill ISK per person (maybe 12 with insurance) QED
McBane	Posted - 2005.07.10 12:58:00 - [18] Edited by: McBane on 10/07/2005 12:59:28 Originally by: Deja Thoris Originally by: McBane Originally by: Deja Thoris @ The OP - your post boils down yo one line CCP have nerfed the means for the average non megacorp or T2 BPO endowed to get involved with the rich guys and have some fun. What constitutes fun? If being "rich" is the only way to have "fun" then I feel sorry for you. Umm, read the other parts of my post - PVP is fun, but that fun requires isk and with expensive T2 ships and equipment, it's becoming hard to hav any fun in a Tech 1 ship with Tech 1 kit since going up against a HAC laden with T2 and high named equipment leaves you no chance of success, which takes away fun. So to have fun and play on the same level, you increasingly need isk to fund your fun, and getting isk is increasingly becoming no fun. Please let me know other ways I can have fun without requiring a lot of isk or shutting myself out of most of the game.... PvP on a budget A few friends A cruiser for each person. Kit out with stock gear. 10mill ISK per person (maybe 12 with insurance) QED So ideas without being shut out of the game..... (You don't play a massive multiplayer online game to play with a few friends and not get involved in the greater game)
Parallax Error	Posted - 2005.07.10 13:08:00 - [19] If you can't think up of any ways to compete with a group of stock equipped T1 Cruisers then don't bother trying to PvP. You obviously don't have enough knowledge on how ships and modules work to be effective in a top of the range setup. This is going to be the lasting legacy of the level 4 Raven users, a generation of EVE players that powered their way to the Raven without ever stopping to use Frigates and Cruisers in multiple situations.
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2005.07.10 13:10:00 - [20] Originally by: Deja Thoris @ The OP - your post boils down yo one line CCP have nerfed the means for the average non megacorp or T2 BPO endowed to get involved with the rich guys and have some fun. What constitutes fun? If being "rich" is the only way to have "fun" then I feel sorry for you. T2 BPO owning people did missions to get their bpo's mostly. how does that fit into your vision of how Eve should be? LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Cmdr Sy	Posted - 2005.07.10 13:14:00 - [21] Originally by: McBane Originally by: Deja Thoris PvP on a budget A few friends A cruiser for each person. Kit out with stock gear. 10mill ISK per person (maybe 12 with insurance) QED So ideas without being shut out of the game..... (You don't play a massive multiplayer online game to play with a few friends and not get involved in the greater game) Uh, yeah you do. UARM has 102 members. Seems like a reasonably-sized community. And of course you will have friends in numerous other corporations. Do stuff with them. Form a L4 mission gang, mine, put up a POS, schedule a L4 rogue drone complex hit, declare war on some corp which has been annoying the hell out of you for the last couple of months. Whatever takes your fancy. I have done all those things before, this patch doesn't change my ability to do them. It just requires more people, and you don't seem the sort to have a shortage of manpower.
Deja Thoris	Posted - 2005.07.10 13:19:00 - [22] Originally by: Parallax Error If you can't think up of any ways to compete with a group of stock equipped T1 Cruisers then don't bother trying to PvP. You obviously don't have enough knowledge on how ships and modules work to be effective in a top of the range setup. This is going to be the lasting legacy of the level 4 Raven users, a generation of EVE players that powered their way to the Raven without ever stopping to use Frigates and Cruisers in multiple situations. Thank you.
SPUFFofDoG	Posted - 2005.07.10 13:34:00 - [23] i think its a great patch, ccp have done a wonderfull job with such a massive patch a very few problems, i'd also love a T2 bpo set (everyone) deposited in my hanger please :)
McBane	Posted - 2005.07.10 14:28:00 - [24] Originally by: Cmdr Sy Originally by: McBane Originally by: Deja Thoris PvP on a budget A few friends A cruiser for each person. Kit out with stock gear. 10mill ISK per person (maybe 12 with insurance) QED So ideas without being shut out of the game..... (You don't play a massive multiplayer online game to play with a few friends and not get involved in the greater game) Uh, yeah you do. UARM has 102 members. Seems like a reasonably-sized community. And of course you will have friends in numerous other corporations. Do stuff with them. Form a L4 mission gang, mine, put up a POS, schedule a L4 rogue drone complex hit, declare war on some corp which has been annoying the hell out of you for the last couple of months. Whatever takes your fancy. I have done all those things before, this patch doesn't change my ability to do them. It just requires more people, and you don't seem the sort to have a shortage of manpower. I wasn't really applying my argument to myself or my corp per say, it was merely an observation that the patch has brought new toys and benefit to the big players/corps while the little corps/player have had a the goalposts moved somewhat. The patch doesn't bother me per say, missile changes are good and its brought in some new elements of play and I don't do that many level 4 missions anyway as I have found otherways to make isk. These ways of making isk however are not an option to the majority of Eve and even restrict my play. Hence why, I used it to fund another soley PVP char who then is free from the grind that is making isk and can have a lot more fun. It should be possible to do this without having one char used for funding another and all that is needed here is a balance of economy. The fact remain that this patch has been geared towards the rich corps/players and has disadvantaged and taken away from many of the small players/corps - or made their goals harder to achieve. This is fact backed up by the fact there is not adeluge of online players post patch and no online player count has been broken this time around where last time it was almost daily. If you're a long-time Eve player then this patch is great, if your a newbie or small time player it does nothing and even takes away some of the game. I'm not massively affected by this patch either way and do like much of the new content, but I have the forsight to see that some of its contents are not good for the direction of the game as a whole. Balance is being lost here and there is a danger of making the game too hard for newbies to get into.
implanted	Posted - 2005.07.10 16:19:00 - [25] agree with above small corps are knackered now.
Jerusaleman	Posted - 2005.07.10 22:35:00 - [26] yes me too and it seems people that are ok with the patch just do not want to listen. the same people are posting over and over again with sinical veiws how we should shut up moaning and buy some cruisers and fight amongst ourselves did not train for two years to do that dear. im in a small corp and we are finding it hard now to meet the growing costs of playing now that our incomes have been axed its a long list of problems with this patch some are devostating to our game play we have been trying to find ways to compinsate but its not working as yet seem to be sitting in stations talking now since there is nothing left to do but mine missions are a defenate no no dont think ill last much longer now there is just nothing left to keep me amused if you have somthing constructive to say ill listen but if not move on to the next post
Aitrus	Posted - 2005.07.10 22:48:00 - [27] Originally by: McBane Let me ask this, where is the risk in sitting in a high sec system manufacturing tech 2 equipment making hundreds of millions of isk per week and what does this do to inflation? it's not inflation, it's redistribution of wealth. Selling tech II doesn't create any isk at all. Running missions does. The stupid amounts of profit in the tech II industry is a symptom of the problem. Too much isk coming in (mainly via lvl. 4 agents) and not enough going out. Now we have reduced the isk coming in, and increased the sinks with high cost skills and BPO's on the NPC market. I think the new skills, BPO's and NPC supplied outpost components will have a significant impact on the economy.
Nybbas	Posted - 2005.07.10 22:50:00 - [28] the only thing that bugs me about the patch is that they nerfed the HELL out of people who would group to do these level 4 missions, making the npcs harder, i have no problem with, having risk is more fun, but then cutting down the bounties, on top of other changes to npc behavior... its time for me to go out to 0.0 again, and to just say screw missions. Then again maybe thats what they wanted us to do, so thats why they did it...
Jacque Custeau	Posted - 2005.07.10 22:57:00 - [29] Edited by: Jacque Custeau on 10/07/2005 22:57:46 I agree the T2 lottery needs revising, but I am against across the board changes. I have 3 T2 BPO's, the small proton smart bomb II, the small emp smart bomb II, and the Muninn. The smart bomb II's simply do not sell. I tried building them and promoting them but no one wants them. As for the Muninn, demand is low but steady, and I only make 20-30% profit. It doesn't bring in billions, but I am grateful. As for items that are in great demand, like T2 cap rechargers, people make obscene profit margins and enjoy no little or no competition. This is a situation CCP needs to address. Clearly more BPOs should have been released for this module. The general rule of thumb should be that non-race specific modules like this should have more bpo's released than for race specific items like ships, guns or missle launchers
Earthan	Posted - 2005.07.10 22:59:00 - [30] Originally by: Nybbas the only thing that bugs me about the patch is that they nerfed the HELL out of people who would group to do these level 4 missions, making the npcs harder, i have no problem with, having risk is more fun, but then cutting down the bounties, on top of other changes to npc behavior... its time for me to go out to 0.0 again, and to just say screw missions. Then again maybe thats what they wanted us to do, so thats why they did it... That waht I hoped to hear. 0.0 must be ulitmate risk and reward.High time level 4 missions were nerfed. Stars, stars like dust, all around me....

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Run and fall or stand in line, in the end what's your's is mine