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Eyeshadow
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Posted - 2005.07.18 12:44:00 -
[1]
We all know how annoying fully stabbed up combat ships are. Yes you sacrifice *SOME* fitting on *SOME* ships to fit a full rack, but imo its not enuf. Fully stabbed ravens/cerbs sacrifice little to fit full stabs.
So here is my proposal (im not sure if any1s suggested this b4).
Low slot mods are scrapped totally
New HIGH slot activatable modules are introduced: Warp core injectors.
These would work as such. 3 varietys. frig/cruiser/BS size (maybe dread size but meh).
Frig size:
PG: 20
CPU: 25
Activation time: 30 seconds
Activation cost: 80 cap
Core strength: +1
Cruiser size:
PG: 250
CPU: 50
Activation time: 30 seconds
Activation cost: 400 cap
Core Strength: +2
Battleship size:
PG: 2500
CPU: 80
Activation time: 30 seconds
Activation cost: 1500 cap
Core Strength: +4
Basically the idea behind this is that fitting one gimps ur ship setup. So, yes you can fight with one (or more) of these fitted but its gonna take its toll on ur setup. For example, a BS could fit 2 cruiser size to try and run away from a fight and overcome the fitting of the BS class, but it sacrifices 2 high slots for only +4 strength.
And yes, an apoc could fit 8 BS size and be pretty much invulnerable to being caught, but it aint gonna do jack all else except run. Which, imo, is the way it should be. And yes a raven could fit 2 BS size and have +8 strength but the high cap use is there to specifically make them suck u dry.
The way i see it is, if you wanna run, u shouldnt be able to fight too. To run, u need a lot of cap (specially the BS size) so it will stop people warping into combat, opening fire, tanking for as long as their cap lasts, then running away with full stabs. If you're running BS size injector, u better make sure uve got a lot of cap in reserve otherwise u aint going anywhere. Also, running multiple injectors would be fairly hard as the cap use would drain any ship pretty quickly
Im sure some people will say "no this is teh sux" but please, post some criticism other than "j00 suck". I hate seeing fully stabbed ships coming into fights and then running away. If you wanna fight, then fight and if you wanna run, then do that too, but being able to do both is just retarded imo.
What do you guys think?
Forums: Sharks * MC |
Sentani
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Posted - 2005.07.18 12:50:00 -
[2]
people are to fixated on killmails...
as soon as the enemy warps out smoking thats a victory to me 
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Zaintiraris
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Posted - 2005.07.18 12:52:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Zaintiraris on 18/07/2005 12:53:08
I feel bad for you, cuz I understand that people loading up a combat ship with all stabs is a pain in the neck, and it hurts your efficiency on the job, but I also understand that theres wimpy nobody folks around that might want to get something expensive in .4 and want to load up on WCS for safety.
Theres not a good 'across the board' solution to warp stability in my opinion, because there are going to be people that use it to avoid being ganked, and people that use it to assist ganking.
Perhaps if you left them as-is, yet added a RoF bonus of -80%? Or an optimal range nerf field?
Edit: Got the early morning just-woke-up gramattical bluu~uues.
---
 Originally by: CCP Hammer
This game was so much better back before people knew math.
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DrunkenOne
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Posted - 2005.07.18 12:53:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Sentani
as soon as the enemy warps out smoking thats a victory to me
Too bad you are wrong.
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Belshamarothxa
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Posted - 2005.07.18 12:54:00 -
[5]
So first you want to make it impossible for a BS fitted Raven to kill an inty and now you want to stop it running away as well.
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DrunkenOne
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Posted - 2005.07.18 13:00:00 -
[6]
Edited by: DrunkenOne on 18/07/2005 13:00:29
Originally by: Belshamarothxa
So first you want to make it impossible for a BS fitted Raven to kill an inty and now you want to stop it running away as well.
If its setup to fight, why should it be able to run away?
I've used a stab or two on occasion on HACs cause I am poor and can't afford to lose one, and I usually do guerilla warfare deep inside enemy territory. Yet doing so means I gimp my ships loadout. A raven (or sniper apoc/geddon/whatever) that fits stabs sacrifices nothing. A 5 stab raven can still do full damage, and have a full tank, while needing 6 points of scramble to tackle. Thats the problem, and its part of what is contributing to the "Sniper bs max stabs snipe frigs at 150km warpout" pvp that is now so commonplace.
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Gunstar Zero
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Posted - 2005.07.18 13:02:00 -
[7]
sounds interesting.
Could even make them use 'ammo' in the form of 'Warp Core Plasma' or something. So you can run, but not forever.
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2005.07.18 13:07:00 -
[8]
Darth solo has made best suggestion for WCS ever...
each fitted WCS makes your ship turn deeper shade of pink
>>;
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Eyeshadow
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Posted - 2005.07.18 13:15:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Gunstar Zero
sounds interesting.
Could even make them use 'ammo' in the form of 'Warp Core Plasma' or something. So you can run, but not forever.
yeah i thought about that too but it wouldnt really change anything, thats why i thought the cap use would work better.
As for stopping people running from a fight, that is not true. In actual fact, if you dont want to fight a all you could load up all ur high slots with injectors and be pretty much invulnerable. BUT, doing so will mean you cant do anything else. 2 on a BS would give you +8 strength, pretty much uncatchable except by a bubble, but running it for any length of time would be near impossible, therefor making it unusable in a combat situation
Forums: Sharks * MC |
Leylaa
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Posted - 2005.07.18 13:20:00 -
[10]
Originally by: j0sephine
Darth solo has made best suggestion for WCS ever...
each fitted WCS makes your ship turn deeper shade of pink
>>;
lol love this idea i dont use them personally and i feel nerfing them is wrong but this graphicalidea is a good one
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HippoKing
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Posted - 2005.07.18 13:35:00 -
[11]
i like the idea 
and it would make the bhaalgorn UBER - fit a few nosferatus, and watch people entirely fail to turn on their WCS 
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JoCool
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Posted - 2005.07.18 13:39:00 -
[12]
/Signed
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Blind Fear
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Posted - 2005.07.18 13:54:00 -
[13]
WCS just need a combat penalty.
I'd suggust 50% sensor resolution and 20% lock range.
Also possible would be cap penalties, ship speed/agility penalties, and moving to highslots with activation costs.
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Death Protocol
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Posted - 2005.07.18 14:29:00 -
[14]
they should just make wcs med slots again, require u to activate them and make them use **** loads of cap like they use to this would solve the problem .
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Zaintiraris
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Posted - 2005.07.18 14:32:00 -
[15]
Would be very neat imho if stabs used fuel. The market for fuel would be gigantic. And it would be very ironic if it were only available in low security asteroid belts 
---
Originally by: CCP Hammer
This game was so much better back before people knew math.
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hectiQ
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Posted - 2005.07.18 14:37:00 -
[16]
Doesn't make much sense to me.
Let's say you are in combat and you are almost out of cap and your armor is heavily damaged.
So at this point you would want to warp out, but.. activation would be 1500 cap?
You die anyway :)
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Blind Fear
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Posted - 2005.07.18 14:38:00 -
[17]
Originally by: hectiQ
Doesn't make much sense to me.
Let's say you are in combat and you are almost out of cap and your armor is heavily damaged.
So at this point you would want to warp out, but.. activation would be 1500 cap?
You die anyway :)
Let's say you fit a real combat setup instead of stabbing out now.
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Ithildin
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Posted - 2005.07.18 14:40:00 -
[18]
Hmm, how about this one: a hybrid between the old SiSi WCS/Scramblers and the TQ variants:
If you have higher scrambling strength than opponent warp core strangth, you are scrambled.
If you have lower, it's chance based. For instance. If opponent is flying a stabbed up Armageddon and you have a 7.5km scrambler on it you'll have a 2/8 chance of scrambling him each interval. That's 1/4 chance of scrambling, for each 7.5km scrambler (meaning scramblers do not stack anymore and thus the 20km scramblers can be reduced in cap need, too).
No more will you be safe to warp in stabbed up ships, and the scrambler ships won't have to worry about the fact that there's a chance an un-stabbed enemy will get away.
--
If TC causes you discomfort that you feel is unwarranted or may be outside TC's current contract - contact me, please.
Josameto III - Moon 1 |
Zaintiraris
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Posted - 2005.07.18 14:44:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Ithildin
Hmm, how about this one: a hybrid between the old SiSi WCS/Scramblers and the TQ variants:
If you have higher scrambling strength than opponent warp core strangth, you are scrambled.
If you have lower, it's chance based. For instance. If opponent is flying a stabbed up Armageddon and you have a 7.5km scrambler on it you'll have a 2/8 chance of scrambling him each interval. That's 1/4 chance of scrambling, for each 7.5km scrambler (meaning scramblers do not stack anymore and thus the 20km scramblers can be reduced in cap need, too).
No more will you be safe to warp in stabbed up ships, and the scrambler ships won't have to worry about the fact that there's a chance an un-stabbed enemy will get away.
Why would bother equipping at all if you think that theres a chance they will be totally ineffective?
I mean, it isn't a bad idea, I just don't think anyone would use a module like that, since it would probably have a fairly high chance of success jamming, and I would either go for total protection from jamming or go the exact other direction. A mixture would dilute both.
---
Originally by: CCP Hammer
This game was so much better back before people knew math.
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Bobby Wilson
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Posted - 2005.07.18 14:58:00 -
[20]
Any one of a number of suggestions would work, as long as CCP do SOMETHING to gimp the use of WCS in PvP.
I like the idea that each one fitted gives a kick to sensor resolution and range. But the idea that they go back to mid slots is cool. or even high slots. Or some of the more complicated schemes.
The problem now is unquestionable. The worse offenders are ofc Ravens and tempests (both of which I fly, so don't call me a hater), both of which can fit 2 to 4 WCS without limiting their offensive damage significantly. When fighting true warp core babies one requires 2 to 3 times numbers usually, as it takes one battleship fitting out JUST FOR LOCKING AND WARP SCRAMBLING. Then a cov ops to get you close enough so they don't run away. Then like one ship to do damage. That's not fun. That's not exciting per se. That's a planned execution, and while it may need to be done, it is nowhere near as cool as the fights we used to get into with frigates and cruisers back in the first months of release, or even the pre-lowslot days of BS combat.
Low slot warp core stabs kill the chance for legit 1 vs. 1 imprompdue PvP. The guy with the warp cores doesn't always win, but he NEVER loses 
BW
Originally by: Pallas Athene
IŠm using voice recognition software - where my fingers get stuck isnŠt your concern sweetheart 
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Eyeshadow
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Posted - 2005.07.18 15:00:00 -
[21]
Originally by: hectiQ
Edited by: hectiQ on 18/07/2005 14:41:54
Doesn't make much sense to me.
Let's say you are in combat and you are almost out of cap and your armor is heavily damaged.
So at this point you would want to warp out, but.. activation would be 1500 cap?
You die anyway 
I mean.. why would someone want to warp out when they still have +1500 cap left
(unless they absolutely can't win the fight ofcourse)
thats exactly the reason why it has such a high penalty to use. It is the fact that atm u can enter combat, shoot + tank etc etc while running 4/5/6/7 or however many stabs and just run away when the going gets tough that i feel they need to be changed so that you cant do both. You can run, or you can fight. If you wanna do both, it gimp your setup quite heavily
The problem i see with making them mid slot +1 is that ships such as the geddon are severly penalised cos they have only 3 mids so fitting for travel still makes u vulnerable. Tis for that reason i thought of the highslot version as the best possible way of doing it + theres no real need to fill all high slots to have effective warping ability.
Of course you could change the values. Thinking about it, it would prolly be better if the BS took like 1000 cap or so, but this is just a general idea to do away with the current situation
Forums: Sharks * MC |
Sarmaul
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Posted - 2005.07.18 15:07:00 -
[22]
Just out of interest, what ever happened to the ECM-clone system for WCS that was going to be introduced with the EW patch?
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Blind Fear
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Posted - 2005.07.18 15:11:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Sarmaul
Just out of interest, what ever happened to the ECM-clone system for WCS that was going to be introduced with the EW patch?
It was retarded. With any luck someone executed it and buried it in a shallow, unmarked grave.
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Zaintiraris
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Posted - 2005.07.18 15:13:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Eyeshadow
thats exactly the reason why it has such a high penalty to use. It is the fact that atm u can enter combat, shoot + tank etc etc while running 4/5/6/7 or however many stabs and just run away when the going gets tough that i feel they need to be changed so that you cant do both. You can run, or you can fight. If you wanna do both, it gimp your setup quite heavily
The problem i see with making them mid slot +1 is that ships such as the geddon are severly penalised cos they have only 3 mids so fitting for travel still makes u vulnerable. Tis for that reason i thought of the highslot version as the best possible way of doing it + theres no real need to fill all high slots to have effective warping ability.
Of course you could change the values. Thinking about it, it would prolly be better if the BS took like 1000 cap or so, but this is just a general idea to do away with the current situation
What do you tell to industrials? The couple of BS with only 6 hi-slots? Do you make it a general type, or would you include a new slot for WCS, in the way you use turret and missile slots? I'm not even trying to shoot down your idea, I just want to see the whole thing fleshed out.
---
Originally by: CCP Hammer
This game was so much better back before people knew math.
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Eyeshadow
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Posted - 2005.07.18 15:20:00 -
[25]
hmm haulers could still fit the frigate module and get +2 strength but yeah, maybe that is a bit of problem there. Not sure how to solve that 1
As for the BS with only 6 high slots, no BS would have the cap to run 6 BS class injectors. at 1000/1500 cap per cycle the most you could probably run was 4, but even 2 would give +8 strength. Dont think theres really any need for more than that is there?
Forums: Sharks * MC |
Zaintiraris
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Posted - 2005.07.18 15:23:00 -
[26]
Well, thats an interesting thing though. The ships you seem to want to not be able to benefit from WCS would benefit the most from a +4 stab strength hislot. Raven would, I suspect, = 6 siege shooting your whatever, or CMs, or whatever is best gank, and 2 of those modules to run out when the going gets tough. They wouldn't need cap for anything but shields.
A minmatar ship could do the same thing, since it has a low cap usage on its guns. I could see it getting easily used to make ganking even easier, as that raven would have six siege, two of those pretty good WCS, and 5 ballistic controls. And then a shield tank too.
---
Originally by: CCP Hammer
This game was so much better back before people knew math.
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Vigilant
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Posted - 2005.07.18 15:24:00 -
[27]
Why fix something that is not broke ? is my 
yes it sucks to run into a fully stabbed geddon/raven.....
But, every setup has its down side... Moving Stabb's to High Slot only gimps every ship below BS..
BS's have the most High Slots... sure they sacrifice firepower..if they install Stabbs in the highs... but 4 Large Weapons/Missile Launchers with a full Low/Mid Tank is not bad.. Considering you now have to have two to three ceptors/frigs to scramble you up...
I got an idea... (bit crazy)... Just make Stabs only work on industrial type ships and frigs (all) 
Now that ^ would change the game a bit...
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Dorah Hawkwing
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Posted - 2005.07.18 15:48:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Dorah Hawkwing on 18/07/2005 15:48:59
.... *sigh* not everyone enjoys staying for a fight
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Fred0
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Posted - 2005.07.18 16:09:00 -
[29]
Well I don't think stabs are horribly overpowered. It can get annoying yes but it always does. However if you let them get away with it you are not applying enough power. You just need to apply more power, faster. Insta popping them.
Secondly. Remember that they are giving away firepower. I see it almost everyday how WCS hoes goes into combat and fail to kill anything simply because their damageoutput is below par. It's the same as every nub who fits shield boosters, armour reppers and hardeners. They are not willing to sacrifice themselves totally to fleets main objective, ie dealing out as much damage as possible. Therefore they suck and will continue to loose.
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Crusher166
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Posted - 2005.07.18 16:36:00 -
[30]
stabs are fine, they dont need to be changed.
Before the raven balance it was just silly having ravens with 5x stabs being able to pull off the same dmg as a raven without stabs on. And now ravens are balanced it doesnt matter because they need their low slots for more of a tank as they cant kill stuff as fast as they used to. On turret ships WCS severly nerf their setup >> as they always did.
There is already plenty of penalty by putting them on like:
1. The low slot is kidna "wasted" and all slots are very important to use fully - ie, dmg output is worse/tanking/cap etc.
2. WCS are very CPU intensive
If you're behind enemy lines... heavily outnumbered and want to fight.. wcs are fine. And its all good because it means you can engage the enemy more often which equals more fun for both sides.
Lastly, fitting WCS doesnt mean you cant be bumped 
Crusher - Arcane Technologies |
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