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Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
Shaktipat Revelators
1314
   |
Posted - 2013.02.11 15:37:00 -
[31] - Quote
Markius TheShed wrote:Welcome back Sansha slavers, If you move back to Turnur the system is currently Amarrian controlled so please kill as many as you can.
Hopefully you will wipe each other out.
We never went anywhere. We do, however, tend to believe in action ahead of IGS posturing.
Turnur is not currently in our objectives. |
Evi Polevhia
True Slave Foundations
Shaktipat Revelators
36
|
Posted - 2013.02.11 16:20:00 -
[32] - Quote
Besides, I abhor slavery. I personally think it is the worst practice still tolerated by any of the Empires yet. To say that Nation takes slaves is factually incorrect. At worst, prisoners of war. A war the Empires started 78 years ago. At best, we Uplift those who ask for it and welcome them into our Unity of Thought and Purpose. Those who join Nation are valued members, important parts of the whole. Kin. Not things which work an entire day in some Holder's grain fields and get punished when the harvest is poor. |
Sepherim
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
244
|
Posted - 2013.02.11 17:45:00 -
[33] - Quote
Evi Polevhia wrote:I disagree with the notion that the age of something proves it's validity. Crewing a ship with baseliners is an older idea, does that mean that is 'better built around the core elements' of space warfare?
No, and that's why that tradition is being changed. It no longer resists in our society, so it is left behind. Those that resist are stronger because they talk of the core of what it is to be us. And the center can't be dismissed.
Quote:Is this the same Empire that attacked the Minmatar in 22480 AD? Jove in 23216 AD? Nation in YC 37? Throughout History your own Empire has built the loyalty of it's people on the idea that the Pious was to be followed into conflict against the non-believer. Your words of unity with the Galaxy are pretty but flawed when compared with the history of your Empire.
Yes, it is. You are also the Sansha that are currently invading amarrian space in two sepparate incursions, right? You have to go back 78 years in order to find an Imperial invasion, thus I believe you can be claimed to be currently more agressive than we are.
So I suggest you seek another example. You use the same methods we created in order to spread your "utopia", though change the voluntary submission of the personal will we encourage for a machine controlled interface.
Quote:I have not been 'programmed'. My integration with Nation is an ongoing process. I have not yet been Networked with my kin. The person you are speaking with now is Evi Polevhia and I have not been altered yet. My thoughts are my own.
Then congratulations on self-brainwashing yourself succesfully!
Quote:My apologies then on the incorrect title. Though I do wonder how you can see the future. I urge you to not dismiss what I say as PR so quickly. My embrace of Nation comes after long and intense introspection and thought on many matters, not after being 'reprogrammed' or however you would put it. I wish to see all of New Eden in the peace of the Master's Vision.
Apologies accepted. I cannot see the future, obviously, but I know myself. I know my place, where I want to be and why. If you were to take me and mind-control me to submit me to the Nation, I would no longer be myself; and if you don't, I wouldn't join you. Thus I can know what the future may hold in this specific regard.
Quote:If there were a way to show an outsider the truth of my words by introducing them to Utopia other then joining Nation, I will let you know, yes? No strings attached, as they say. Then you could see New Eden how it was meant to be seen.
You can let me know if you so wish, but I can see the universe through your eyes even without that tutorial. The Nation, afterall, is just a darkened and twisted reflection of the Empire. It reminds us what the price is to fail the correct path.
Sepherim Catillah; Ex-Imperial Navy Officer |
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
Shaktipat Revelators
1315
|
Posted - 2013.02.11 18:34:00 -
[34] - Quote
Sepherim wrote:[quote=Evi Polevhia] Quote:Is this the same Empire that attacked the Minmatar in 22480 AD? Jove in 23216 AD? Nation in YC 37? Throughout History your own Empire has built the loyalty of it's people on the idea that the Pious was to be followed into conflict against the non-believer. Your words of unity with the Galaxy are pretty but flawed when compared with the history of your Empire. Yes, it is. You are also the Sansha that are currently invading amarrian space in two sepparate incursions, right? You have to go back 78 years in order to find an Imperial invasion, thus I believe you can be claimed to be currently more agressive than we are.
Just to note: The Attack by CONCORD aligned forces against Nation planets was so vicious it took 76 years for us to recover. I have heard otherwise reasonable pilots claim that this is not murder or genocide, but euthenasia, because we are no longer considered human, see.
The attacks are currently going on because we have learned the hard way that we cannot coexist with you on equal terms. Nation is unanimous in thinking that we should be on the upper hand. What is still a matter for debate is whether we need to be as vicious as you were to us in order to make sure that we are safe.
I hold to the position that we just have to have the upper hand, not hold all the cards. Please do not make me reconsider my stance to the other major position. |
Sepherim
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
244
|
Posted - 2013.02.11 18:41:00 -
[35] - Quote
I don't disagree with the notion of invading other powers. I'm a soldier, and I favor the Reclaiming and whenever it restarts, I'll be in the frontlines. But I won't take a Nation pilot claiming "how peaceful you are" and how "violent we are" while you are the ones invading our sovereign space. We are violent, we defend our right to conquer everywhere and show the true vision of the Empire to everyone. But we don't claim otherwise, I was just pointing out what a hypocrite claim captain Polevhia was doing.
As I said, you're just our flawed reflection.
Sepherim Catillah; Ex-Imperial Navy Officer |
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
Shaktipat Revelators
1315
|
Posted - 2013.02.11 18:44:00 -
[36] - Quote
Sepherim wrote:
As I said, you're just our flawed reflection.
We are peaceful, however. The end goal of our way is a world where the soldiers can be repurposed and will no longer be necessary.
We are not your flawed reflections, Captain Sepherim, we are the improvements on your design. |
Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
5
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Posted - 2013.02.11 19:41:00 -
[37] - Quote
Evi Polevhia wrote:Besides, I abhor slavery. I personally think it is the worst practice still tolerated by any of the Empires yet. To say that Nation takes slaves is factually incorrect. At worst, prisoners of war. A war the Empires started 78 years ago. At best, we Uplift those who ask for it and welcome them into our Unity of Thought and Purpose. Those who join Nation are valued members, important parts of the whole. Kin. Not things which work an entire day in some Holder's grain fields and get punished when the harvest is poor.
The Nation practices the worst kind of slavery. It is slavery of body and mind. Mister Thessalonia said you do not "kidnap", since people "choose" to come. But that choice has been made for them, seeing as you release nanites into the atmosphere to reprogram people's brains (did you meet with your "recruiters" in person, miss Polevhia? They probably did the same to you). It's still abduction, still slavery.
The only right form of slavery is slavery done to uplift people from their sins, to teach them to become better people and then release them once they have overcome their evil natures. That is why the Reclaiming is a good thing. But in the Nation, you force people to obey without bothering to teach them why your path is right. You just shove nanites in and call it a day.
Will you remove the implants from your slaves once you reach your "end goal"? I doubt it. |
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
Shaktipat Revelators
1316
|
Posted - 2013.02.11 21:57:00 -
[38] - Quote
Samira Kernher wrote:Evi Polevhia wrote:Besides, I abhor slavery. I personally think it is the worst practice still tolerated by any of the Empires yet. To say that Nation takes slaves is factually incorrect. At worst, prisoners of war. A war the Empires started 78 years ago. At best, we Uplift those who ask for it and welcome them into our Unity of Thought and Purpose. Those who join Nation are valued members, important parts of the whole. Kin. Not things which work an entire day in some Holder's grain fields and get punished when the harvest is poor. The Nation practices the worst kind of slavery. It is slavery of body and mind. Mister Thessalonia said you do not "kidnap", since people "choose" to come. But that choice has been made for them, seeing as you release nanites into the atmosphere to reprogram people's brains (did you meet with your "recruiters" in person, miss Polevhia? They probably did the same to you). It's still abduction, still slavery. The only right form of slavery is slavery done to uplift people from their sins, to teach them to become better people and then release them once they have overcome their evil natures. That is why the Reclaiming is a good thing. But in the Nation, you force people to obey without bothering to teach them why your path is right. You just shove nanites in and call it a day. Will you remove the implants from your slaves once you reach your "end goal"? I doubt it.
You think we believe freedom is even a thing worth pursuing? Why in the world would I want to be free? |
Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
6
|
Posted - 2013.02.11 22:47:00 -
[39] - Quote
I do not believe the Nation believes freedom is worth pursuing, no. But miss Polevhia seems to think it is. She claims to "abhore slavery" and that she prefers the Nation because she was able to "choose" those chains. Her posts talk about how she rejects the shackles of the other empires, of normal society. The ability to reject an idea you don't like is freedom. She sees freedom in the Nation, because its stated goals match her own desired goals. She is window shopping for shackles, and thinks the Nation's are prettier than the competitors.
She doesn't realize what slavery truly is. It means you follow your master, right or wrong. If the Nation decides to pursue different goals, goals she would not agree with, she will not be able to break those chains like she did with the other empires. She will not be able to reject the Nation if the Nation chooses evil over good, dystopia over utopia. For someone who claims to abhore slavery, she is choosing to bind herself to the most total and complete slavery possible. "True Slaves" is a very appropriate title.
What she really seems to want is Utopia. Not the Nation. And if she honestly believes the Nation will always be a force working towards that Utopia, then she is woefully naive about the universe. Your master is a man like any other man, possessed of the same sins and flaws as any man. He is not God.
Miss Polevhia, if your mind is still your own, then I recommend you think very hard on what you have chosen. Because if it becomes as evil as you believe the other empires to be, you won't be able to reject it like you did before. If something better comes along, you won't be able to choose it like you chose Nation. You think you are binding yourself to the ideal of Utopia, but what you are really binding yourself to is the Nation's interests--Sansha Kuvakei's interests. Whatever those interests may really be. |
Evi Polevhia
True Slave Foundations
Shaktipat Revelators
36
|
Posted - 2013.02.11 22:51:00 -
[40] - Quote
Everyone wears chains. That was the whole point. Most people choose their chains. Some (Slaves of the Amarr) do not. I wish people to chose their fate and do so for the best of reasons for the best of outcomes. |
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von Khan
133
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Posted - 2013.02.11 22:55:00 -
[41] - Quote
Evi Polevhia wrote:Everyone wears chains. That was the whole point. Most people choose their chains. Some (Slaves of the Amarr) do not. I wish people to chose their fate and do so for the best of reasons for the best of outcomes.
So you what them to have the freedom to choose? Tiberious you better activate her implants.
von Khan
Philosopher |
Cerise Solette
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2013.02.11 23:02:00 -
[42] - Quote
Evi Polevhia wrote:Guns and drones will break my bones,
but Sansha's chains excite me.
So tie me down and jack me in,
and force his peace inside me. |
Evi Polevhia
True Slave Foundations
Shaktipat Revelators
36
|
Posted - 2013.02.11 23:03:00 -
[43] - Quote
von Khan wrote:Evi Polevhia wrote:Everyone wears chains. That was the whole point. Most people choose their chains. Some (Slaves of the Amarr) do not. I wish people to chose their fate and do so for the best of reasons for the best of outcomes. So you what them to have the freedom to choose? Tiberious you better activate her implants.
You do realize I made the choice before I was a member of TS-F, right? |
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
Shaktipat Revelators
1317
|
Posted - 2013.02.11 23:11:00 -
[44] - Quote
von Khan wrote:Evi Polevhia wrote:Everyone wears chains. That was the whole point. Most people choose their chains. Some (Slaves of the Amarr) do not. I wish people to chose their fate and do so for the best of reasons for the best of outcomes. So you what them to have the freedom to choose? Tiberious you better activate her implants.
I am not the integrator, Mr. von Khan. Evi will choose when she is ready to be networked. |
Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
6
|
Posted - 2013.02.11 23:42:00 -
[45] - Quote
Evi Polevhia wrote:Everyone wears chains. That was the whole point. Most people choose their chains. Some (Slaves of the Amarr) do not. I wish people to chose their fate and do so for the best of reasons for the best of outcomes.
Then you are choosing the wrong allegiance, because Nation does not want people to be able to choose their fates. For every one of you that chooses it willingly, there are hundreds of thousands that are brainwashed by nanites and forced into service. Just because the people you enslave walk "freely" onto your transports does not make it any different to the Amarr raids on Minmatar worlds.
We all wear chains. Some of us were born into actual chains as slaves. But even those of us that were, still had the freedom of mind to choose to accept or reject the chains we wear, to nurse our own individualities regardless of the shackles around our ankles. That is the difference between the slavery that we lived through, and the slavery that you are entering. We had our minds. "True Slaves" do not.
You don't understand what it means to be a slave, miss Polevhia. You try to compare your upbringing with slavery, while also talking about choosing who you slave for, about rejecting masters or ideals you don't like. Those are freedoms that very few of us possessed. No slave, whether current or former or whether they accept it or reject it, would think the slavery Nation offers to be better. It takes away the one base freedom that we were allowed--our minds.
Try thinking about the True Slaves instead of the minority like yourself, miss Polevhia. Just because you had the right to choose, that you are still "not networked", that does not mean that is the case for everyone else in the Nation. As mister Thessalonia stated himself: The Nation does not believe freedom is something worth pursuing. That is what you are joining. If you "wish people to choose their fate," then you are joining the worst possible organization. |
Evi Polevhia
True Slave Foundations
Shaktipat Revelators
36
|
Posted - 2013.02.11 23:57:00 -
[46] - Quote
I think you're mistaking my words. I do not think that Freedom is the goal. If I did I would be working for the Gallente maybe. Utopia is the goal. I posted what I did for the intended audience of the Summit. For the most part this is a gathering place of Capsuleers and powerful individuals who have enough control over their life to choose what ideals they serve. As one of those Capsuleers, I have chosen to follow the Master and do his will.
Over all across all of humanity, not everyone will have a choice. I used to think this was a problem, now I accept that as the way of the world. The stronger control the weaker. The many control the few. The Master controls the Slave. This is the way it will be until the end of time. Even the Amarr must admit that the Master controls the Slave. Master Kuvakei is now my Master, but he was not always such. And as such I had a choice before. I made my choice to dedicate my eternal life to his dream.
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Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
8
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Posted - 2013.02.12 00:15:00 -
[47] - Quote
I don't deny this. We all have our place.
I am just telling you that just because you may desire Utopia does not mean that your master also desires it. If he instead creates a dystopia, you will still have to obey. That is what it means to be a slave. You are dedicating your life to Sansha Kuvakei, not "his dream". If he commits evil, you too will be forced to commit evil.
That is what you need to acknowledge. That you are becoming a slave, and that being a slave means that you will serve your master even if his goals turn out to run counter to everything you believe in.
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Evi Polevhia
True Slave Foundations
Shaktipat Revelators
36
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 01:49:00 -
[48] - Quote
If I become a slave to his Vision and it brings the serenity of Utopia to the cluster, then that is something I would gladly do. Anyone who says otherwise is a fool or selfish beyond words. I have had small glimpses into Utopia so far. I have seen glimmers and shadows of the Master's Vision. It is not dystopian, but rather a wondrous unity of purpose and life. |
von Khan
133
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Posted - 2013.02.12 01:54:00 -
[49] - Quote
Sounds like someone activated your implants... nice dreams.
von Khan
Philosopher |
Ruby Amatucci
Tomorrowland Orphanage
Shaktipat Revelators
12
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Posted - 2013.02.12 02:33:00 -
[50] - Quote
Yay! Welcome to Nation, Friend Evi! I'm really looking forward to get to know you!
Oh, and don't pay the meanies here any mind. They think everyone in Nation is a janitor. |
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Takrow Matoris
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2013.02.12 07:52:00 -
[51] - Quote
Evi Polevhia, I feel sorry for you. You have no idea what you have gotten yourself into. Believing that you have found your Utopia with in the Nation is but a lie. When your mind is not your own, how can you really say your free? Sure our impulses bring a lot of pain and sorrow to people, but it also bring joy and happiness. It's a double edge sword, one that all of us has been struggling to use properly. But at least we try. But to throw all that away just to glimpse into some kind of Utopia, is sad. Not only that, but you are willing to give up what really defines us as being alive. Right now I can't tell if you are alive or just some mindless machine speaking only what has been programmed for you. At least with a impulse you would be seen at alive and would have been given a chance at finding a true Utopia, one created by your own mind, not someone else. |
Halete
Alexylva Paradox
637
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 10:16:00 -
[52] - Quote
Takrow Matoris wrote:When your mind is not your own, how can you really say your free?
When can we ever truly claim that our mind is our own?
Trading chains for shackles, I am free. |
Markius TheShed
Murientor Tribe
Defiant Legacy
141
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Posted - 2013.02.12 11:26:00 -
[53] - Quote
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
We never went anywhere. We do, however, tend to believe in action ahead of IGS posturing.
Turnur is not currently in our objectives.
What action do you speak of? I'm yet to see a sustained sansha invasion that lasts longer than a week, The Amarrian occupation of Minmatar systems is more or a threat.
At the moment your just a inconvenience.
**Murientor Tribe** Killing Slavers, Ammatar and Nafantar Traitors since YC107
http://www.defiant-legacy.com/ |
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
Shaktipat Revelators
1317
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 11:41:00 -
[54] - Quote
Halete wrote:Takrow Matoris wrote:When your mind is not your own, how can you really say your free? When can we ever truly claim that our mind is our own?
This is exactly what I was going to ask.
You speak of "impulses" being things that arise from the self, but they do not. Impulses are the results of chemical reactions and raw animal instinct. The human being also has another option, called "reason", but reason follows rules and modes of behavior, and so is similarly not something that arises from the self.
What you call free will is nothing more than an illusion. We understand this, and in discarding our reliance on it, we become part of the True Power. |
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
Shaktipat Revelators
1317
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 11:42:00 -
[55] - Quote
Markius TheShed wrote:Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
We never went anywhere. We do, however, tend to believe in action ahead of IGS posturing.
Turnur is not currently in our objectives.
What action do you speak of? I'm yet to see a sustained sansha invasion that lasts longer than a week, The Amarrian occupation of Minmatar systems is more or a threat. At the moment your just a inconvenience.
They aren't occupations, clearly. Try again. |
Halete
Alexylva Paradox
638
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 13:37:00 -
[56] - Quote
If I might, a tangent;
How does TS-F feel about individuals whose ideals might coincide at many points with Sansha's proposal of 'Utopia', however care not for Kuvakei himself?
It seems to me that in the pursuit of Unity, we must bow to your perished master. Could not another person rise to uplift humanity? Although, I suspect as much that somebody already has adopted his effigy...
It is alien to me to invest so much into a man. Cursed, as any human. I understand many willingly subscribe to his vision foremost, before the individual himself. Be that as it may, I still have to wonder how you can have such certainty that such a flawed creature can fulfill such a perfect plan.
Trading chains for shackles, I am free. |
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
Shaktipat Revelators
1317
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 13:54:00 -
[57] - Quote
Halete wrote:If I might, a tangent;
How does TS-F feel about individuals whose ideals might coincide at many points with Sansha's proposal of 'Utopia', however care not for Kuvakei himself?
It seems to me that in the pursuit of Unity, we must bow to your perished master. Could not another person rise to uplift humanity? Although, I suspect as much that somebody already has adopted his effigy...
It is alien to me to invest so much into a man. Cursed, as any human. I understand many willingly subscribe to his vision foremost, before the individual himself. Be that as it may, I still have to wonder how you can have such certainty that such a flawed creature can fulfill such a perfect plan.
I believe the official position is "That's fine. Stay out of our way and let us build Utopia for you." |
Gwen Ikiryo
Hoderi's Folly
27
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Posted - 2013.02.12 14:22:00 -
[58] - Quote
Halete wrote:If I might, a tangent;
How does TS-F feel about individuals whose ideals might coincide at many points with Sansha's proposal of 'Utopia', however care not for Kuvakei himself?
It seems to me that in the pursuit of Unity, we must bow to your perished master. Could not another person rise to uplift humanity? Although, I suspect as much that somebody already has adopted his effigy...
It is alien to me to invest so much into a man. Cursed, as any human. I understand many willingly subscribe to his vision foremost, before the individual himself. Be that as it may, I still have to wonder how you can have such certainty that such a flawed creature can fulfill such a perfect plan.
I actually had a dialogue on this topic with Ghost Hunter some months ago, I believe, just a few weeks after I became a Capsuleer.
If I recall: (And please feel free to correct me if I am misremembering any points) He stated that the two could function seperately for a time, but since their socities would be so alike, he saw no reason that the two could not eventually intergrate on an atleast quasi-equal level, to fulfill the ambition of humanity/intelligence in general being united under a single banner.
Interestingly, when I asked him about the leadership, he suggested that the "Administration" of both could also hypothetically merge - Meaning Sansha and whatever would be in command of the other potential society - though I believe the specifics of how this would work was never quite clarified, nor was the explict definition of the term "merge".
I'll leave you to draw your own conclusions, I suppose. |
Halete
Alexylva Paradox
638
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 15:01:00 -
[59] - Quote
Thank-you, Gwen, Tiberious. This is interesting enough if true.
Trading chains for shackles, I am free. |
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
Shaktipat Revelators
1318
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 15:18:00 -
[60] - Quote
Gwen Ikiryo wrote:Halete wrote:If I might, a tangent;
How does TS-F feel about individuals whose ideals might coincide at many points with Sansha's proposal of 'Utopia', however care not for Kuvakei himself?
It seems to me that in the pursuit of Unity, we must bow to your perished master. Could not another person rise to uplift humanity? Although, I suspect as much that somebody already has adopted his effigy...
It is alien to me to invest so much into a man. Cursed, as any human. I understand many willingly subscribe to his vision foremost, before the individual himself. Be that as it may, I still have to wonder how you can have such certainty that such a flawed creature can fulfill such a perfect plan. I actually had a dialogue on this topic with Ghost Hunter some months ago, I believe, just a few weeks after I became a Capsuleer. If I recall: (And please feel free to correct me if I am misremembering any points) He stated that the two could function seperately for a time, but since their socities would be so alike, he saw no reason that the two could not eventually intergrate on an atleast quasi-equal level, to fulfill the ambition of humanity/intelligence in general being united under a single banner. Interestingly, when I asked him about the leadership, he suggested that the "Administration" of both could also hypothetically merge - Meaning Sansha and whatever would be in command of the other potential society - though I believe the specifics of how this would work was never quite clarified, nor was the explict definition of the term "merge". I'll leave you to draw your own conclusions, I suppose.
Specifics are impossible to measure in a hypothetical situation such as this, especially as there is currently no other entity that matches the description. It is very much a "Cross that bridge when/if we come to it" situation. |
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