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Hans Roaming
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Posted - 2005.07.21 08:18:00 -
[1]
I want to get POS aggression setting up as a discussion point on the forums as I feel this needs to be highlighted.
Recently I encountered a neutral corps POS in low sec space that as soon as I warped to a 100km from the moon immediatly locked and fired at me, lucky for me if I'm scanning for hostiles and use moons as reference points then I always warp in far away to avoid being jumped. This of course meant I could warp away and see the four citadel torps make their way across space to get me in leasure.
I spoke with the CEO who stated that most of the corps he is friendly with do the same, that is set it to fire on neutrals. The reason he gave for this was that it stops people seeing what is in the pos. My answer to this is it doesn't as one can scout the pos in a pod as they won't engage a pod, can scout in a covert ops ship and also you can go to the planet and remote scan the POS. An answer that came back was that why should one go to a moon anyway and my response is that firstly you use moons as either emergency warp points in pvp to get away as although someone can immediatly follow you to a planet it's not easy to follow to a moon and that they are good points to scan from hostiles from. In the case of escaping you don't have time or might not be near enough to scan where you are going first.
Basically I consider a corp that sets thier POS to open fire (and maybe destroyed a ship) has comitted a hostile act in the same manner as using ships. Also this seems to be a way of ganking people without any associated penalty to sec status, all one has to do is drop loot cans by a gate with BM's to the pos in and pick up the loot later.
What do you think? Is setting a POS to attack neutrals acceptable and should everyone be denied warping to a moon because 'You should know the risks when warping to a moon'. Or should a POS opening fire be considered an act of war against your corp and or alliance and be no different from being attacked by ships which means a Concoord recognition of this hostile act and also an appropriate response from the victims corp/allaince? As a side note up until now there has been no means to take down a POS except by starvation, with Dreads soon to be appearing it would seem that such hostile acts can have real consequences.
Anyway please discuss.
WTS: Male, 37, single, can fly starships, build rockets and dance Salsa.
WTB: Female, plays eve, lives near London UK |
Braaage
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Posted - 2005.07.21 08:24:00 -
[2]
There's always a risk of a moon having a POS, so why do u warp to these as emergency warp out points, use planets instead.
___________________________________________
http://www.eve-tutor.com
Picture based tutorial site for EVE-Online
*New - Building an Outpost |
Seleene
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Posted - 2005.07.21 08:24:00 -
[3]
You make some valid points, but I have a very simple view of it - Get off my land!
I hauled this thing out here, set it up and fueled it. It, and the moon it's anchored at, now belong to me. Don't like that? Bring some friends and give it your best shot.
The bottom line is that if you are supposed to be at my moon, then the guns won't shoot you. If you're some stranger lurking around outside one of my houses, what do you expect? Milk and cookies?
It's harsh and simple, but so are the rules of the game. 
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We're outnumbered! That simplifies the problem! |
Matthew
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Posted - 2005.07.21 08:40:00 -
[4]
Well, one take on this would be to look at the territorial claiming role of a POS. It's not that far-fetched to argue that a POS at a moon is "claiming" that moon, and the space immediately around it, which also neatly explains why they can't be anchored anywhere the empires might actually care about. If you consider the territory "claimed", then the POS shooting neutrals becomes a border-control issue.
Of course, the other factor is the sheer difficulty of factoring in an appropriate response. As we're talking POS, making it equal to a player's ship would mean flagging something, and a sec-status hit. but who would you attach the consequences to? Every member of the corp? The CEO? Whoever anchored the tower? If you attach the criminal flag to a player, and he's in high-sec at the time, that could result in his concordoken, even though it was a low-sec kill. And what if the incident arose through a problem with the tower gun controls - players don't have direct control over those guns.
While setting your POS to shoot neutrals isn't the friendliest thing to do, it is perfectly legitimate. What we really need is the option for a "warning off" from the pos before the gankage. Maybe have some sort of triggered pop-up, similar to the ones you get for some deadspace complexes, while in warp giving you X seconds after arrival to initiate warp away from the POS before it opens fire. Of course, this mode would need it's own set of trigger controls, so you could set it to "warn then gank" neutrals, but instagank hostiles.
Beware those beyond here, for they cannot see evil. |
Count TaSessine
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Posted - 2005.07.21 09:24:00 -
[5]
I agree with Hans Roaming in this issue. There is no reason starbases should shoot on sight. Yesterday one of our bases shot down an innocent pilot who was moon scanning and carelessly warped to our moon without scanning from the planet first. When we setup the base we gave it the 'standard' setting of shooting at anything below +10. We have adjusted the settings now to only shoot at people with negative security ratings, and that as a matter of principle.
Chairman, ISS
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MaiLina KaTar
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Posted - 2005.07.21 09:29:00 -
[6]
Thing is: you can't tell who's neutral and who isn't.
Mai's Idealog |
Seleene
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Posted - 2005.07.21 09:50:00 -
[7]
 Originally by: MaiLina KaTar
Thing is: you can't tell who's neutral and who isn't.
Quoted for truth.
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We're outnumbered! That simplifies the problem! |
mahhy
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Posted - 2005.07.21 10:04:00 -
[8]
I always thought that POS in low sec, shooting anyone thats not a war target or -5, should cause the entire owning corp to receive a standings hit.
Its no different, in my mind, to getting a bunch of corp members together and ganking random people.
But it seems most people didn't agree with my ideas 
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Hans Roaming
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Posted - 2005.07.21 10:20:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Hans Roaming on 21/07/2005 10:25:24
Thanks for the responce and all good points I'd just like to add and or clarify a few things.
Ok moons as emergency warp points have been utilised for ages as you can easily follow someone to a planet.
Neutral I mean by anyone who is not on you KOS list or you are hostile with.
One can't claim anything in Empire, they have claimed it all for themselves, haveing a corp come along, claiming a moon and making it (in the eyes of the owning state) overtly hostile should be considered an act of invasion.
Who would a sec status hit go to when POS shoots? Don't know, however it does allow one to gank neutrals without penalty if they show up. In 0.0 you can do whatever you want and shoot anyone you want including having your POS do it. In empire ships can't fire without taking a penalty however POS can do this and it does seem to break the normal responce CONCOORD has to agression.
Snooping is easy, just do it in a pod, a covert ops or remote scan. Thus this isn't a valid reason for setting the POS to gank on sight all non blue.
Self defence is perfectly valid an CONCOORD supports this already with criminal flagging.
I've never fired on a POS, would I get flagged and a security status hit for doing so, if this is the case then the current situation would seem unbalanced.
Does anyone else in a corp consider being blown up by a POS owned by an otherwise neutral corp an act of war and grounds for putting the hostile corp on their KOS list and or declaring on that corp?
WTS: Male, 37, single, can fly starships, build rockets and dance Salsa.
WTB: Female, plays eve, lives near London UK |
Avon
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Posted - 2005.07.21 12:07:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Avon on 21/07/2005 12:07:42
Empire based POS should only KOS alliances, corps, and individuals on a KOS list.
Individuals can not be added if they are part of a players corp, and corps can't be added if the are part of an alliance.
Fees should be paid to concord to add to the list, unless the POS owner is already at war with those they wish to add - fees should be proportional to war fees.
POS should retaliate to any aggression with no penalty or cost.
______________________________________________
Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay. |
Xavier Belt
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Posted - 2005.07.21 12:15:00 -
[11]
I agree that it seems a mild exploit for Starbases to shoot neutrals and receive no security hit in Empire space.
--
@BrerRabbit> you have to be the iron mallet of reason
@Quixzlizx> right now he's being the "stupid comedian" of reason |
Trak Cranker
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Posted - 2005.07.21 12:42:00 -
[12]
No HAS to warp to moons. Every knows that there CAN be a pos at a moon. Pos's can be set up to shoot at anybody trespassing. That is the right given to pos owners, it seems.
(Rememeber; one might want to keep the content of the moon as secret as possible)
Hence: Warping to a moon is putting one self in danger - KNOWINGLY.
Calling it an exploit is dilluting both that word and your eventual worth in this debate.
Noone can expect neutral guests at their moon with anything remotely approaching certainty - making the thought that people would do it for the kills alone hilarious.
I think the rights and protection of the POS owner and his values easily and heavily outweighs the casual and only _potential_ "need" for warping to moons by thirdparties.
Trak Cranker |
Dionysus Davinci
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Posted - 2005.07.21 12:52:00 -
[13]
Don't warp to a moon, problem solved.
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Avon
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Posted - 2005.07.21 12:56:00 -
[14]
You can't claim Empire space, a POS there gives you no rights.
When it is a bunch of pirates shooting anyone people moan like hell, and get they get sec hits.
Everyone knows there might be pirates in low sec systems, but that does not exempt the pirates for getting penalties for shooting neutrals.
0.0 is a different matter, but POS at moons in Empire space need some sort of regulation.
______________________________________________
Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay. |
Kin Hanyerec
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Posted - 2005.07.21 13:19:00 -
[15]
If i were you hans i'd ask them to pay for my loss...
and wait for their haulers if they don't
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Hans Roaming
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Posted - 2005.07.21 13:25:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Hans Roaming on 21/07/2005 13:38:26
Originally by: Trak Cranker
No HAS to warp to moons. Every knows that there CAN be a pos at a moon. Pos's can be set up to shoot at anybody trespassing. That is the right given to pos owners, it seems.
(Rememeber; one might want to keep the content of the moon as secret as possible)
Hence: Warping to a moon is putting one self in danger - KNOWINGLY.
Calling it an exploit is dilluting both that word and your eventual worth in this debate.
Noone can expect neutral guests at their moon with anything remotely approaching certainty - making the thought that people would do it for the kills alone hilarious.
I think the rights and protection of the POS owner and his values easily and heavily outweighs the casual and only _potential_ "need" for warping to moons by thirdparties.
Good points, in 0.0 this is all fair, in Empire this seems to be not right and as for people doing it for kills alone, read this thread. At the time I thought this was funny and a valid point however thinking about it more has made me change my views. Keeping things secret doesn't work as one can just navigate in a pod, am not sure how far from a moon the scanning works and what you need but a BM can be made to get around that if it can be within a certain range of the moon.
A person put themselves at risk knowlingly by going into low sec, however the person agressing them also takes the repercussions for there agressive act, in this case they don't hence the discussion. For those saying that warping to a moon is invalid and don't do it, remember that when you get followed to a planet and locked because it was easy for the person(s) hunting you to work out where you were going.
Has any corp gone to war over an incident like this? To be honest if POS are in the low sec where my alliance and CVA operate and a member got ganked by a POS then I'd be calling for the aggressor to be put on the KOS list. Might also be a good way for corps to claim the moral high ground as well when wanting to start a conflict.
Just to clarify, I didn't loose a thing, just got shot at.
WTS: Male, 37, single, can fly starships, build rockets and dance Salsa.
WTB: Female, plays eve, lives near London UK |
Wild Rho
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Posted - 2005.07.21 14:23:00 -
[17]
A POS gunning down neutrals in Empire should have represcussions on the owning corp unless in self defence.
0.0 is a free for all so tough luck out there.
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Finix Jaeger
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Posted - 2005.07.21 14:24:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Finix Jaeger on 21/07/2005 14:24:23
Originally by: Kin Hanyerec
If i were you hans i'd ask them to pay for my loss...
and wait for their haulers if they don't
I know Hans would love to do that. To bad Huzzah is a tree-hugging hippie alliance
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Grand Agitator
Rabid defender of the Cold War voice
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Milkminer
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Posted - 2005.07.21 14:33:00 -
[19]
If you took a sec hit for your pos attacking non agresive ship then you would be screwed.
Would mean you could easily attack a pos knowing your support is safe.
Its fine as it is, if you go to a moon for "fun" or for "the sake of it" then clearly somethings wrong with you 
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Winterblink
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Posted - 2005.07.21 14:35:00 -
[20]
If I use my ship to blow you up at a moon in a 0.4 system there's no repercussions to me at all really. Podding you is a different story, but stations don't attack pods. If a station whacks your ship at a moon in a 0.4 or less system, then what's the issue?
If CONCORD was suddenly aware of the hostile act and took action against corp members in space elsewhere, that would be ridiculous. Suddenly a CONCORD gank squad warps on me because my POS in a 0.4 blew up someone who could possibly have been scoping my station?
Don't get me wrong, I don't agree with the setting, personally. But if some corp wants to blow up my station, it's easy for them to make an alt who won't be recognized by the station and come to see what I have there.
___winterblink/warp_drive_active/eve_nature_vraie// |
Winterblink
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Posted - 2005.07.21 14:36:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Milkminer
If you took a sec hit for your pos attacking non agresive ship then you would be screwed.
Not to mention it would be easily abused as a grief tactic against the POS owners. Make an alt, get shot down a whole bunch of times so CONCORD gets all nasty on the owners.
___winterblink/warp_drive_active/eve_nature_vraie// |
Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2005.07.21 14:40:00 -
[22]
POS shooting neutrals = nobody can scan your moon = nobody wants your moon.
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Want your POS to make money? Call me up. I've designed POSs that make upwards of 50m a day. |
Hans Roaming
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Posted - 2005.07.21 14:42:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Hans Roaming on 21/07/2005 14:55:45
Originally by: Finix Jaeger
Edited by: Finix Jaeger on 21/07/2005 14:24:23
Originally by: Kin Hanyerec
If i were you hans i'd ask them to pay for my loss...
and wait for their haulers if they don't
I know Hans would love to do that. To bad Huzzah is a tree-hugging hippie alliance
Times are changing in Huzzah.......
And yeah I would, would be an excuse to try out a sniperdom fit. 
To the previous posters I'm not at home to check but can you scan a mood using a pod, what equipment is needed if not? If I can snoop a station in a pod and if I can scan a moon in my pod and your station does NOT open fire because I'm doing it in a pod then what are you preventing from having it shoot neutrals?
If you blow up my shuttle at a planet in a ship you will take a security hit and also if you warp to the station in 15 mins you will get attacked by the sentries. Am sure pirates would back me up saying you don't all have you neg status from pods.
If a sec status hit is accrued by members of the owning corp then it's their choice to make the POS that agressive, take the responsability for you choice, don't want the time don't do the crime.
If there is no repercussions from a POS ganking a neutral then the converse should also be true, attacking a POS if fair game, no sec status hit or flagging for the attacker, which of course defending fleets can take the hit when they come to drive them off.
WTS: Male, 37, single, can fly starships, build rockets and dance Salsa.
WTB: Female, plays eve, lives near London UK |
Avon
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Posted - 2005.07.21 14:46:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Dark Shikari
POS shooting neutrals = nobody can scan your moon = nobody wants your moon.
The fact that you bothered to build a POS indicates the moon is desirable.
______________________________________________
Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay. |
Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2005.07.21 14:53:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Dark Shikari
POS shooting neutrals = nobody can scan your moon = nobody wants your moon.
The fact that you bothered to build a POS indicates the moon is desirable.
Not necessarily. The vast majority of POSs are on decent moons... but not ones worth losing battleships fighting the POS over.
One in a hundred low sec POSs is sitting on a dysprosium or promethium moon. Nobody takes that kind of chance.
--
Want your POS to make money? Call me up. I've designed POSs that make upwards of 50m a day. |
MOOstradamus
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Posted - 2005.07.21 14:53:00 -
[26]
/me thinks that POS's that fire on 'neutrals' should suffer the wrath of the CONCORD DREADNOUGHT SQUAD
MOOrovingian "Following & supporting EVE (since Jan 2001) is like wiping your arse with sandpaper."
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theRaptor
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Posted - 2005.07.21 15:08:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Trak Cranker
No HAS to warp to moons. Every knows that there CAN be a pos at a moon. Pos's can be set up to shoot at anybody trespassing. That is the right given to pos owners, it seems.
(Rememeber; one might want to keep the content of the moon as secret as possible)
Hence: Warping to a moon is putting one self in danger - KNOWINGLY.
Calling it an exploit is dilluting both that word and your eventual worth in this debate.
Noone can expect neutral guests at their moon with anything remotely approaching certainty - making the thought that people would do it for the kills alone hilarious.
I think the rights and protection of the POS owner and his values easily and heavily outweighs the casual and only _potential_ "need" for warping to moons by thirdparties.
No one needs to go to low sec. Doing so puts you in danger knowingly.
But that is not the point. The point is people shouldn't be allowed to kill people in low sec and avoid the sec hit.
P.S. And for the tenth time in this thread, the reason you warp to moons instead of planets is because its much harder to track people to moons.
That is not dead which can eternal lie,
And with strange aeons even death may die.
-- Ancient "Dirt" Religious figure. |
Hans Roaming
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Posted - 2005.07.21 15:27:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Cosmic Dragon
you can now claim systems using pos's there is an option in the towers controllpannel that lets you claim ownership if you have the mostr pos's in that system it even shows on the map that you own it and when you do own a system you can then build outposts to consolidate your claim so if you build a pos that moon is yours.
Oh and the main reason why we let owers shoot neutralls is because we dont want alts making sieg bookmarks to ower pos 
This works in 0.0 only if I remember correctly, what I am talking about is in Empire. In Empire you take repercussions for all acts of aggression unless a war is declared, so why not this time. If the general view is that this is fine and it doesn't seem to be so far just in this thread then fine but allow me to take out the POS in my home systems without repercussions too.
WTS: Male, 37, single, can fly starships, build rockets and dance Salsa.
WTB: Female, plays eve, lives near London UK |
Drakma
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Posted - 2005.07.21 15:30:00 -
[29]
Ok, so let's say I set a POS up at a moon and only set it to fire only on those I set to -5, KOS... whatever...
Then let's say CorpB (whom I have no standing against) decides they don't like me and decided to come to my POS and start blowing it up.
Now, I realize once fired upon, it will fire back, but now CorpB has the advantage as they can take all the time they want to see what I have in defenses and setup exactly in the perfect spot to minimize their damage.
Sounds like a bad idea to me. Personally... if you're not my friend and not supposed to be there... you're dead. |
Hans Roaming
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Posted - 2005.07.21 15:33:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Drakma
Ok, so let's say I set a POS up at a moon and only set it to fire only on those I set to -5, KOS... whatever...
Then let's say CorpB (whom I have no standing against) decides they don't like me and decided to come to my POS and start blowing it up.
Now, I realize once fired upon, it will fire back, but now CorpB has the advantage as they can take all the time they want to see what I have in defenses and setup exactly in the perfect spot to minimize their damage.
Sounds like a bad idea to me. Personally... if you're not my friend and not supposed to be there... you're dead.
One of them ejects from a shuttle at the station, warps to your POS in a pod and does all of that without it attacking. What have you gained from setting it to fire on neutrals?
WTS: Male, 37, single, can fly starships, build rockets and dance Salsa.
WTB: Female, plays eve, lives near London UK |
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