You know, before this gets blown out of proportion too much.

There's more to the Federation than the old man or lady who gets elected into Ladistier.

A citizen should be more concerned about their local planetary government than the Presidency, for it is the former that has the more direct influence over an individual's lifestyle.

You know, before this gets blown out of proportion too much.

There's more to the Federation than the old man or lady who gets elected into Ladistier.

A citizen should be more concerned about their local planetary government than the Presidency, for it is the former that has the more direct influence over an individual's lifestyle.

But more importantly, what difference would it make? Intaki, Placid and other occupied territories would have voted Governor Aguard, who would have instigated an escalation of the war by using the Federation Navy to liberate the systems, and things would have gone to ****. Instead, when Roden was elected, the CONCORD-mandated Federal Defence Union did it instead, and no escalation ever took place.

Given that Roden's election resulted in the complete liberation of Placid and neighbouring areas, do you think the general population really care about the questionable nature of his election? It's all been rendered moot.

There's more to the Federation than the old man or lady who gets elected into Ladistier. A citizen should be more concerned about their local planetary government than the Presidency, for it is the former that has the more direct influence over an individual's lifestyle.

I support the Administration of President Jacus Roden.

The radical right wing must not be allowed to have their way with the Federation once more. ... Jacus Roden and Mentas Blaque ...

What's the normal term for the president? I.e. when will there be re-elections anyhow?

...The president is elected every 5 years and the same man cannot be re-elected. The intent of this rule is to make the president and his administration focus on running the Federation rather than focus on their own popularity...

Perhaps it is better to look forward ... than cling to the past.

When it comes to legitimacy of President Roden's term of service, I must refer to the legislation passed by the Federation Senate on 17.11.111 YC.

Finally, the question about the role of the Senate regarding the disenfranchisement is somewhat debatable. Many people see that Senate was just an instrument, a middleman having little choice with regard to the outcome. It was not the senators but the brave citizens of Placid who were behind this important sacrifice for the good of the whole Federation. It was due to them that the attempts of the occupying forces to manipulate the elections were cunningly subverted. The rest of the Federal community will always remember the contribution of the Placid-dwellers with reverence. It would be wrong to take this honour away from them and hand it out to the elite.

Because we all know the Gallente Senate is without fault and that unjust law has never put into action.

How you expect subjects of a occupying authority to participate in the political operations of the previous government that was forcibly ejected is beyond me.

Regardless, it is the law that decides whether or not something is "illegal", not *your* personal moral compass.

1) Until the Supreme Court says otherwise, the election of President Roden was not illegal. It may be abhorrent, counter to the values of democracy, so on and so forth, but it was not illegal. Not as far as the workings of the Federal administrative system is concerned.

2) But more importantly, what difference would it make? Intaki, Placid and other occupied territories would have voted Governor Aguard...

3) who would have instigated an escalation of the war by using the Federation Navy to liberate the systems, and things would have gone to ****. Instead, when Roden was elected, the CONCORD-mandated Federal Defence Union did it instead, and no escalation ever took place.

4) Given that Roden's election resulted in the complete liberation of Placid and neighbouring area...

5) do you think the general population really care about the questionable nature of his election? It's all been rendered moot.

1) It is always painful when one's favourite candidate doesn't have success among the voters.

2) When it comes to legitimacy of President Roden's term of service, I must refer to the legislation passed by the Federation Senate on 17.11.111 YC. Nevertheless, in the Federation we enjoy the freedom to express our concerns. Although the past elections seem to be perfectly valid, there is nothing that prevents an individual to take up the issue in court.

3) When the past elections are analyzed in more detail, it is hard to estimate how the outcome would have changed if Placid had been voting. Fasio's decision to lend his support to Aguard probably discouraged some of the dove-aligned voters, and Garioss was also there offering competition and a tempting alternative. Assuming the distribution of votes in Placid was not totally alien to the distribution elsewhere in the Federation, it is probable that the special legislation had only a minor effect on the final results.

Finally, the question about the role of the Senate regarding the disenfranchisement is somewhat debatable. Many people see that Senate was just an instrument, a middleman having little choice with regard to the outcome. It was not the senators but the brave citizens of Placid who were behind this important sacrifice for the good of the whole Federation. It was due to them that the attempts of the occupying forces to manipulate the elections were cunningly subverted. The rest of the Federal community will always remember the contribution of the Placid-dwellers with reverence. It would be wrong to take this honour away from them and hand it out to the elite.

As least most of those who rewrite history have the decency to wait until those who were actually there are in the grave.

As I said, the issue is debatable. Nevertheless, while special interest groups are always welcome to present their opinions, the Senate needs to listen to everyone, not just selected few.

1) I think it has less to do with "boo-hoo my guy didn't win" and more to do with the whole election being an insult to the principles of democracy that you purport to defend.

2) Never doubt, when a tyrant is rising, they will have a piece of paper that says everything they are doing is absolutely above board. Also, while I can see some arguing that the election is valid, to say it is "perfectly valid" is an insult to those in uniform who died to protect the rights of their fellow citizens that was so cowardly and easily surrendered in the halls of the government they laid their lives down for.

3) You can speculate that it might not have changed, but you know a good way to find out?

Hold a special election now that the threat of widespread manipulation has abated.

I also took the liberty of illustrating how tenuous and utterly fictitious you come across as here when your statement is a nothing but a rambling series of if/maybe/could-haves.

Much like Mr Inhonores, you seem to think your baseless speculating about "might-haves" and "what-ifs" actually stands as a proper subsitute to democratically electing people.

4) Your own news agencies disagree with you.

Why do I know more Federal history and politics than their own defense forces?

It is the right of any citizen of a democracy to have a say in who governs them. If you deny that right, you strip the legitimacy from the system.

I will not disagree with the assessment that there are certainly more parties to blame than the Senate, but that does not change the fact that the current President of the Federation was chosen in flawed election.

As I, and others, have pointed out the circumstances that were used to justify the subversion of democracy are gone. The blackout no longer exists. Planetary occupations are no longer happening.

The corrective is simple: If the Supreme Court were to rule the Voting Prohibition Act illegal, it would nullify the election that followed it. A new election would be called and all citizens of the Federation would be allowed to participate.

I will not disagree with the assessment that there are certainly more parties to blame than the Senate, but that does not change the fact that the current President of the Federation was chosen in flawed election.

As I, and others, have pointed out the circumstances that were used to justify the subversion of democracy are gone. The blackout no longer exists. Planetary occupations are no longer happening.

The corrective is simple: If the Supreme Court were to rule the Voting Prohibition Act illegal, it would nullify the election that followed it. A new election would be called and all citizens of the Federation would be allowed to participate.

I would hope you are aware that in almost any legal system, the repeal of a law or governmental act does not neccessarily retroactively negate or illegitimise decisions made while it was in effect, the same way a new law prohibiting something does not neccessarily allow for the retroactive prosecution of those who undertook this activity before it was illegal.

You are, of course, correct. However, I believe it would still be within the jurisdiction of the Court to rule to results of the election invalid based on the illegal nature of the Act that enabled it. Invalidating the results would require a new election.

I also acknowledge that two systems are currently under occupation, but to my knowledge the planets in question still remain under the protection of Federation ground forces and there has been no communications blackout. As those were the criteria cited before, I don't see why those planetary populations would be disenfranchised now.

Now I'm rather uninformed about the Federal law system, but I don't think this would have changed Roden's precidency. Could one of the Federate pilots give a short explanation on what exactly this "outright majority" or the lack thereof means?

The ridiculous hyperbole employed in the original post is a new low, even for you, Hawke. That you would have the gall to suggest that our esteemed and august President assumed his title in a manner that does not mesh with the laws and ideals of the Federation is not surprising to me at all, considering some of the outrages perpetrated in your illustrious career.

This is a man, ladies and gentlemen, who changes his allegiances like I change my sports-coat. And like my sports-coat collection (Which includes such colours as beige, off-white, bone, ivory and navy. As well as cream) he has as many different shades as he needs. When the Caldari are ascendant, he decries Federal iniquities. But when the chips are down, he comes crying, back to the Federation.

This is a survivalist, ladies and gentlemen, the same as any cockroach or base insect, who will do whatever he needs to do.

Hawke, you and your Placid terrorist group have tried the patience of the people of the cluster long enough. It is a disgrace that you show so little respect to the office of President, and frankly, I'm bored of your whining. Don't think I haven't seen you in Villore, lobbying the Supreme Court. I will do everything I can to block your little scheme and send you back to Poitot where you belong, along with the rest of the refuse with which you spend your time.

This is a man, ladies and gentlemen, who changes his allegiances like I change my sports-coat.

This is a survivalist, ladies and gentlemen, the same as any cockroach or base insect, who will do whatever he needs to do.

Don't think I haven't seen you in Villore, lobbying the Supreme Court.

The ridiculous hyperbole employed in the original post is a new low, even for you, Hawke. That you would have the gall to suggest that our esteemed and august President assumed his title in a manner that does not mesh with the laws and ideals of the Federation is not surprising to me at all, considering some of the outrages perpetrated in your illustrious career.

This is a man, ladies and gentlemen, who changes his allegiances like I change my sports-coat. And like my sports-coat collection (Which includes such colours as beige, off-white, bone, ivory and navy. As well as cream) he has as many different shades as he needs. When the Caldari are ascendant, he decries Federal iniquities. But when the chips are down, he comes crying, back to the Federation.

This is a survivalist, ladies and gentlemen, the same as any cockroach or base insect, who will do whatever he needs to do.

Hawke, you and your Placid terrorist group have tried the patience of the people of the cluster long enough. It is a disgrace that you show so little respect to the office of President, and frankly, I'm bored of your whining. Don't think I haven't seen you in Villore, lobbying the Supreme Court. I will do everything I can to block your little scheme and send you back to Poitot where you belong, along with the rest of the refuse with which you spend your time.

You say the Senate needs to listen to everyone while supporting it for silencing the voices of the millions of residents living within the formerly occupied systems.

This is the mind of Gallente Progressivism? I truly shudder to think what other great reform programs you'd like to see put on the people of the Federation. What next? Poll taxes? Literacy requirements? Perhaps you could advocate moving all polling stations to Gallente Prime as a way to safeguard the ballots.

While being temporarily without the right to vote may be unpleasant, it does not mean that the Senate has stopped caring and working for your benefit. A proof of this is the glorious liberation of Placid after the elections.

If I had been registered in Placid, I wouldn't have hesitated to give away my voting rights to ensure that the freedom in the rest of the Federation can survive. When the whole nation is in danger, drastic measures are needed. In the end, this strategy didn't just save Placid - it ensured that the tradition of democracy, liberty and equality can continue in the cold vastness of space.

We are strictly against taxes, requirements, regulations and other restrictions of individual liberty, unless national security demands otherwise. We are in the process of updating our platform and will present it in more detail later. Thank you for expressing curiosity towards our line of thinking.

The Federation is not wanted by the Intaki of Placid. Deal with it and stop trying to convince the capsuleers otherwise.

[quote=Jon Engel]Minorities should stop speaking for majorities, unless you'd like to back that claim up with some actual evidence other than examples of the minority breaking away in the past, or the "me and my mates" attitude that many voices of the separatist movement come with these days.

Are you prepared to provide evidence that desire for autonomy is a minority position other than repeated claims that the blessed and righteous Federation is beloved by all of its people that many voices of the nationalist movement come up with these days?

Because I'd hate to think a double-standard was being applied.

In this case, a general lack of evidence is evidence itself.

If the majority of Intaki wanted secession we'd have seen mass protest and uprising, as well as open support toward the Caldari from a majority populace and not a minority as was with the seperatist movement.

I don't have to provide evidence here, as I'm talking about the status quo and the way things are.

Intaki is part of the Federation and her citizens are not showing a mass degree of backlash against this situation. Now prove that things aren't what they seem on the surface.

Oh and less of the "Blessed and Righteous" crap, it's the Federation we're talking about, not the Godhead Empire. Also being called a Nationalist is quite insulting, I pride myself on neutrality and the advantage of being able to pick out idiotic statements on either side of these pointless empire wars. I expect a good bottle of Vodka as an apology.

Argument from ignorance, not entirely unsurprising.

Well, given the fact that the last time there were major demonstrations taking place in Placid, people were brutally repressed, severed from their families, exiled and left to rot at the mercy of narcotics peddlers, I doubt your premise that lack of vocalization necessarily proves anything about people's inclinations in this regard.

Just because the exact things you listed aren't happening does not remotely advance the validity of your claims.

You haven't proven that is the surface, you've only presumptuously declared it so. That it emanated from your mouth does not make it gospel.

Minorities should stop speaking for majorities, unless you'd like to back that claim up with some actual evidence other than examples of the minority breaking away in the past, or the "me and my mates" attitude that many voices of the separatist movement come with these days.

Lets just look at why they would rather have Mordus Legion, Ishukone and Syndicate forces in the region as opposed to Federal Navy.

The Government of Intaki told the enforcers of Federal Authority to leave, twice.

I have some Nationalist acquaintances. They enjoy much more discreet and somber means.

So, to sum it up, no one knows what the people of Intaki actually want, but everyone does their best to help them with what they think those people should want?

Very Amarrian of you.

yet some people still blame the lax security of the system upon the Federation, even though they haven't been responsible for that duty in over two years now.

IMPEACH THAT MISSILE LOVING CROOK JACQUES RODEN!

We are either forced to fight at a severe disadvantage with Gallente hulls, or we are forced to fly other race's ships (very dishonorable).

I hear that both Creodron and Duvolle are going to announce advances in drone and blaster technology in the upcoming months. But if they don't, then I'm putting a bullseye on them too!

Most of the people working for the ILF seem to be an indictment of a drop in recruiting standards, which is disheartening, to say the least - they do not seem to understand the concept of the "burden of proof".

When an accusation or assertion is made, the onus of responsibility is upon the person or organisation who made it to provide evidence to substantiate it, not upon the people to whom it is made to falsify it.

That said:

The most recent news reports that mention the subject suggest that Intaki wishing to remain with the Federation are the majority. In fact, some were willing to take up arms over it and even consider themselves "Gallente".

I would also point out that the decision to choose Mordu's Legion in favour of the Federation Navy has not changed the security of the system a whit, yet some people still blame the lax security of the system upon the Federation, even though they haven't been responsible for that duty in over two years now.

"The Ishukone Agreement represented, and continues to represent, the best option for the long-term safety and security of our society."

Asking the Federal Navy to adhere to an old agreement when the Intaki joined the Federation is not proof of them wishing to leave the Federation.

Demanding the Federal Navy leave after the Militia worked so "hard" to take it back from Caldari occupation. A military is nothing more than force behind a Government. Without force, a Government has no authority. The Gallenteans have no authority in Intaki. Despite people's assertions otherwise.

Demanding the Federal Navy leave after the Militia worked so "hard" to take it back from Caldari occupation. A military is nothing more than force behind a Government. Without force, a Government has no authority. The Gallenteans have no authority in Intaki. Despite people's assertions otherwise.

The Militia has been asked to leave, despite being manipulated by Concord to be forced to host a FDU station. I'm not gonna play connect the dots for you, but even a flag waving sodomite Federal like yourself can see that not everything is as it seems.

The Militia has been asked to leave

Demanding the Federal Navy leave after the Militia worked so "hard" to take it back from Caldari occupation. A military is nothing more than force behind a Government. Without force, a Government has no authority. The Gallenteans have no authority in Intaki. Despite people's assertions otherwise.

The Militia has been asked to leave, despite being manipulated by Concord to be forced to host a FDU station. I'm not gonna play connect the dots for you, but even a flag waving sodomite Federal like yourself can see that not everything is as it seems.

Minorities should stop speaking for majorities, unless you'd like to back that claim up with some actual evidence other than examples of the minority breaking away in the past, or the "me and my mates" attitude that many voices of the separatist movement come with these days.

...

The Federation is not wanted by the Intaki of Placid. Deal with it and stop trying to convince the capsuleers otherwise.

I'd bang all your bloody heads together.

Threats of violence are hardly an appropriate way of showing that my argument about the intolerance of nationalistic Gallente is incorrect.

Hawke, this form of debate is beneath you. You know what he actually means. You're better than this.

Frankly, it's typical of the kind of sophistry employed by secessionists, especially as their actual arguments are entirely without merit.

Frankly, it's typical of the kind of sophistry employed by secessionists, especially as their actual arguments are entirely without merit.

Do you stand for democracy and freedom or against it? If you are for, then lets have a fair and full election. If you are against, then its best the people of Intaki know who stands opposed to their liberties.

Your approval of my admonishment fills me with shame, and I hereby retract it on general principle.

Such a pity, General Ixiris, and I had such high hopes for us.

We agree that the Amarr people and culture are a severe threat to the stability of the cluster. After that, our paths fork so damn wildly we're travelling in pretty much opposite directions. I've got some pretty strong views, but you? Not only are you objectively wrong most of the time, you drive away both extant and potential allies from the Federal cause simply by opening your mouth.

Your close-mindedness is disgusting and antiquated and I want nothing to do with you. If you want to make a friend of me, there's going to need to be a sea change in your ****-poor attitude.

Mr Octirant, you were just called closed-minded by Andreus Ixiris. That's not a good sign.

It is, however, damned funny. Thank you both.

Mr Octirant, you were just called closed-minded by Andreus Ixiris. That's not a good sign.

It is, however, damned funny. Thank you both.

.

We agree that the Amarr people and culture are a severe threat to the stability of the cluster.

.Your close-mindedness is disgusting and antiquated and I want nothing to do with you. If you want to make a friend of me, there's going to need to be a sea change in your ****-poor attitude.