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Marcus Alkhaar
Sonnenlegion Shadow Cartel
1
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Posted - 2013.02.11 19:50:00 -
[1] - Quote
Hey. I think this kind of thread must come up often. I didnt bother searching the forum because I'm lazy - Sorry.
I sincerely think it should be easier and faster for new players to get into the game.
I sugest that some basic skills are removed from the game and apply to the ship right away, without any training. These are the skills that are really annoying for new players to train and. It's a relic of the first reincarnation of the bad skill design, just like the tiercide was. I cannot find any purpose in these skills other than to give the game more longievity - But it's a major Turnoff for new players who want to "play" the game and do something meaningful according to evemon a change like this will bring the fun to the new player 255 days/8,5 months faster - it's Roughly +12m skillpoints.
Electronics Electronics Electronic warfare Survey Signature Analysing Targetting (MultiTasking still trainable) Weapon Disruption Target Painting Sensor Linking
Drones Drones Drone interfacing Scout Drone Operation
Engineering Engineering Energy Grid Upgrades Energy Management Energy Systems Operation Shield Management Shield Upgrades Tactical Shield Manipulation
Navigation Navigation Fuel Conservation Warp Drive Operation Evasive Maneuvering
Science Cybernetics - Change skill to 2/4/6/8/10 implants - This will make isk-succesfull noobs even more succesfull as they dont have to wait some odd 20 days for their +5 implants!
Mechanics Mechanics Hull Upgrades
Spaceship Command Spaceship Command
Anyone want more actual players to play with opposed to just alts??? |
Barrak
Wormhole Engineers Greater Realms
76
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Posted - 2013.02.11 20:33:00 -
[2] - Quote
The problem isn't the time it takes for a new pilot to get into the game, it's the perception of how long it takes to be useful....... sadly this is hugely skewed by many corporations stating that you need to be in ships that are not effective or flyable from a new pilots perspective.
New pilots can be hugely beneficial in the right ships and circumstances.
Regards
Barrak |
Leetha Layne
71
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Posted - 2013.02.11 20:37:00 -
[3] - Quote
Marcus Alkhaar wrote: Anyone want more actual players to play with opposed to just alts???
Not if they are dumb-asses who need everything handed to them.
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RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
341
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Posted - 2013.02.12 00:48:00 -
[4] - Quote
I have actually never seen a thread quite like this one. I think "giving" those skills to level V might be bad on some level, but I can't pin it down atm.
I general, I feel like I trained them, so evey one else should put in the time as well. BUT: If they went away, all I would really want, is the skill points re-imbursed, as done with other skills. |
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
411
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Posted - 2013.02.12 12:14:00 -
[5] - Quote
Leetha Layne wrote:Not if they are dumb-asses who need everything handed to them. Progress Quest is serious business. |
Marcus Alkhaar
Sonnenlegion Shadow Cartel
1
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Posted - 2013.02.12 16:10:00 -
[6] - Quote
RavenPaine wrote:I think "giving" those skills to level V might be bad on some level, but I can't pin it down atm.
How could it be bad? EVE is about specializing your character. CCP are even making skill changes in order for specializing faster into 1 race...
All of these skills are the non-specializing skills which makes new EVE players quit because it'll take a lifetime before they got to the "specializing" part of the game... or in case they specialized 4 months into the game... their basic skills would be very bad. |
Hulasikaly Wada
G.P.S. Global Private Security Agency
9
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Posted - 2013.02.12 17:12:00 -
[7] - Quote
Marcus Alkhaar wrote:RavenPaine wrote:I think "giving" those skills to level V might be bad on some level, but I can't pin it down atm.
If I wanted to invite some friends to EVE It'd take them 1 year before they would be useful at my level of playing. With this change it would only take 3-4 months.
You know you can have all you need of the listed skills at lvl 4 in 15 days extra of your 3-4 mounths anyway?
Hula |
Marcus Alkhaar
sonnenlegion Shadow Cartel
1
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Posted - 2013.02.12 17:17:00 -
[8] - Quote
Hulasikaly Wada wrote:Marcus Alkhaar wrote:RavenPaine wrote:I think "giving" those skills to level V might be bad on some level, but I can't pin it down atm.
If I wanted to invite some friends to EVE It'd take them 1 year before they would be useful at my level of playing. With this change it would only take 3-4 months. You know you can have all you need of the listed skills at lvl 4 in 15 days extra of your 3-4 mounths anyway? Hula 5's matter on these skills to be competitive. |
Fredfredbug4
The Scope Gallente Federation
409
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Posted - 2013.02.14 02:43:00 -
[9] - Quote
Player usefulness depends on what you want to do and the corp you want to join.
If you want to get into fleet PVP, you could potentially start from day one. If you know how to scout properly, then you'll be a very valuable asset.
However, if you want to start running incursions, you're going to have to wait a bit.
Point is, some things don't necessarily require nearly a year of training to be effective, others certainly do though.
I accidentally my assets, is this bad?-á |
Inkarr Hashur
Sine Nobilitatis
181
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Posted - 2013.02.14 02:55:00 -
[10] - Quote
As someone who has only just barely gotten over that 12M SP hump somewhat recently OP, I disagree. I think teaching patience and wise skill choices is good for new players. Also it isn't like you need those skills at V in order to fly cruisers around and do lv 2 or 3 missions. |
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Inkarr Hashur
Sine Nobilitatis
181
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Posted - 2013.02.14 02:58:00 -
[11] - Quote
Marcus Alkhaar wrote:Hulasikaly Wada wrote:Marcus Alkhaar wrote:RavenPaine wrote:I think "giving" those skills to level V might be bad on some level, but I can't pin it down atm.
If I wanted to invite some friends to EVE It'd take them 1 year before they would be useful at my level of playing. With this change it would only take 3-4 months. You know you can have all you need of the listed skills at lvl 4 in 15 days extra of your 3-4 mounths anyway? Hula 5's matter on these skills to be competitive.
Just a quick glance at what you listed, you can't possibly defend the claim that you need warp drive operation to V to be competitive. If your fits don't require max PG or CPU, you can skimp on that skill. Signature analysis, target painting, weapon disruption, these are not things a new player needs to train to V right awy. |
Tul Breetai
Impromptu Asset Requisition Insurance Fraud.
200
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Posted - 2013.02.14 03:27:00 -
[12] - Quote
Tiericide wasn't a relic, it's a response to a relic.
Also, we can all tell you didn't put in much time thinking about this. There's nothing worse than an EVE player, generally considered to be top of the food chain in the MMO world, that cannot smacktalk with wit and coherency. |
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
39
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Posted - 2013.02.14 14:37:00 -
[13] - Quote
Inkarr Hashur wrote:As someone who has only just barely gotten over that 12M SP hump somewhat recently OP, I disagree. I think teaching patience and wise skill choices is good for new players. Also it isn't like you need those skills at V in order to fly cruisers around and do lv 2 or 3 missions.
You misunderstand. It's not about the ability to fly PVE missions.
This is a thread about getting people into a position to contribute in a meaningful way (i.e. with an option to not ALWAYS be the tackle monkey or scout) in PvP fleets with somewhat veteran players. They will STILL need to specialize to compete, but at least they won't be restricted to only 2 possible roles (and not even performing better in those roles than a generalized veteran, just simply barely able to perform them).
I wholeheartedly support the idea, even though i would probably lose (or rather free up) 80% of my SP, with time spent flying around in sub-par ships just to be able to cover all the I/M basics.
A change like that might actually enable me to bring my friends to EVE. You know, those guys that might dedicate maximum a few weeks to try out a game and ONLY stay if they have fun with PvP and have a feeling they will be highly competitive at some point, being rather decent PvP players in general. |
Marcus Alkhaar
sonnenlegion Shadow Cartel
1
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Posted - 2013.02.14 18:58:00 -
[14] - Quote
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:Inkarr Hashur wrote:As someone who has only just barely gotten over that 12M SP hump somewhat recently OP, I disagree. I think teaching patience and wise skill choices is good for new players. Also it isn't like you need those skills at V in order to fly cruisers around and do lv 2 or 3 missions. You misunderstand. It's not about the ability to fly PVE missions. This is a thread about getting people into a position to contribute in a meaningful way (i.e. with an option to not ALWAYS be the tackle monkey or scout) in PvP fleets with somewhat veteran players. They will STILL need to specialize to compete, but at least they won't be restricted to only 2 possible roles (and not even performing better in those roles than a generalized veteran, just simply barely able to perform them). I wholeheartedly support the idea, even though i would probably lose (or rather free up) 80% of my SP, with time spent flying around in sub-par ships just to be able to cover all the I/M basics. A change like that might actually enable me to bring my friends to EVE. You know, those guys that might dedicate maximum a few weeks to try out a game and ONLY stay if they have fun with PvP and have a feeling they will be highly competitive at some point, being rather decent PvP players in general.
Exactly. The reason why learning skills was removed are because they simply De-gimped your training time while at the same time denying new pilots getting into fun and shiny shiptypes - Remember the feeling of : "ohhhhhh a Battleship! I want to fly that!" ???... but then you had to train learning skills in order for you to train your skills faster? That really was not a satisfying feeling. To bend you over even just a little more CCP added basic skills just to make sure it would take you a long time to have fun in your new and shiny, but heavily gimped ship. Basic skills deny new players to unlock Shiptypes and Equipment at a critical stage where they are choosing wether or not this game is worth playing.
I made it through that first year of training Learning skills/Basic skills- But for 7 years in a row I have been unable to recruit any longterm players of my E-friends to EVE - they all quit after getting super bored because they aren't able to be useful to another pilot in EVE while at the same time flying their new and shiny ship. There's a reason why many PvP corps got 10-20mill sp limits - It's not because the player behind the screen don't understand PvP - its that their character can't do "enough" because most EVE players with less than 10 mill skillpoints mainly got their SP in Basic skills.
I like how CCP advertise their game with being a sandbox - It's a place where we can make a wide variety of things that will eventually fall apart and be reassembled in another way. When I was a kid and played in my sandbox, I got to learn the basics of playing with sand pretty damn quick - if It had taken me 8 months to learn how to play with sand - trust me, I wouldn't have been playing with that stupid sand. Trolol. |
Andrew Indy
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
5
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Posted - 2013.02.15 06:43:00 -
[15] - Quote
I can understand the general idea but I don't believe that you need all of those skills at 5 just to be useful , Maybe 3-4. Sure maybe if they want to be elite solo PVP players they might need all of them to 5 but elite and useful are different things.
Currently new players are given a few skill at lvl1-3 (racial frig ect) , maybe that should be widened to include a lot of these skills to 1-4.
I fly incursions in shiny fleets, WH stuff, Some medium gang PVP and I don't have half of those skills at 5. I'm getting a lot up now but only after getting into the ships I wanted to fly. |
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
40
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Posted - 2013.02.15 11:15:00 -
[16] - Quote
Andrew Indy wrote:I can understand the general idea but I don't believe that you need all of those skills at 5 just to be useful , Maybe 3-4. Sure maybe if they want to be elite solo PVP players they might need all of them to 5 but elite and useful are different things.
Currently new players are given a few skill at lvl1-3 (racial frig ect) , maybe that should be widened to include a lot of these skills to 1-4.
I fly incursions in shiny fleets, WH stuff, Some medium gang PVP and I don't have half of those skills at 5. I'm getting a lot up now but only after getting into the ships I wanted to fly.
It's a general approach so far that would certainly need finetuning if implemented. But it's a really good discussion starter IMO.
For instance I'm not sure eWar skills should be in that list and some skills are really high on my priority list for lvl IV, but very low for lvl V. That however is mostly due to inconsistencies regarding T2 requirements for stuff where T2 is clearly superior than any metas (shield extenders and invuls come to mind).
With learning skills you had a similar situation. The investment for lvl 4 was ok, lvl 5 was pretty much long term, however neglecting it was problematic in the extremely long term. CCP decided not to give everyone lvl 4 but to remove those skills altogether - IMO a good decision.
Cybernetics is another very problematic skill in that regard. ISK aside, I once calculated that it would take about 2 years to recover the SP invested into lvl 5 from the bonus compared to lvl 4 implants alone. At that time I didn't even know (and I still can NOT say for certain!) if I would still be playing the game 2 years from starting. Clearly NOT an incentive to make that investment.
Generally I'd recommend CCP to take a look at skills that 90% of pilots past a certain SP amount have at V and among those identify the skills that do nothing but increase numbers. I'd strongly recommend setting some of those skills as baseline for all pilots and refund the SP invested, as the difference to learning skills is really just of cosmetic nature. |
Calapine
Xeno Tech Corp
168
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Posted - 2013.02.15 13:24:00 -
[17] - Quote
Electronic warfare
Not needed to V. IV yes, but it's not like having ECM drones is a deal breaker for a newbie.
Survey Rank III for salvaging, doesn't take long
Signature Analysing V only needed for T2 Logistics and Recons, both ship classes that are epitomes of late-game specialisation..
Targeting IV gives you 6 locked targets. Logi pilots want more, but again --> endgame
Weapon Disruption IV is good for Amarr pilot with tracking disruption bonused ships, other race pilots can forget this for a long time.
Target Painting Same. Bit less cap use on TPs? Minor skill. Still have it at 3.
Sensor Linking IV needed for T2 Remote Sensor Booster. Again, which new player really needs that T2 module right away to be useful for a corp?
Drone interfacing Rank III. Worry about more waaaay later.
Energy Grid Upgrades No need to ever go to V, unless one wants a marauder.
There are more skills, but I am cutting it short here. Seems the problem are mostly your exaggerated demands towards new players skills to be considered useful for the corp. Pain is short, and joy is eternal. |
Thur Barbek
Republic University Minmatar Republic
51
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Posted - 2013.02.15 17:20:00 -
[18] - Quote
Why stop there? Give everyone all skills for free at lvl V. Unlimited isk too. We wouldn't want noobs to feel left out.
The majority of the skills you listed are niche skills. All the ewar skills are useless for noobs. Tactical Shield Manipulation is actually worse at V than IV. Warp skills are pretty useless. Other people have listed more detailed examples.
As for new people not being able to participate: tackle is the most important role in fleets besides maybe logi. And a noob can now get into a t1 logi in 2-3 weeks easily. DPS? 2 week old alts blow up hulks and suicide gank all the time, obviously they can deal dps. Go join red vs blue and tell me noobs do no damage or can't participate in fleets.
You want noobs to be able to tank and dps and ewar and more all at once. Eve is about specializing, the one benefit older players have is that they can fill multiple roles at once. Noobs simply have to choose 1 or 2 to start off with.
Tell me one role besides absurd stuff like capital ships that a noob cannot fill after 1 month of training if he focuses on it. You can't. |
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
40
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Posted - 2013.02.15 22:00:00 -
[19] - Quote
Thur Barbek wrote: You want noobs to be able to tank and dps and ewar and more all at once. Eve is about specializing, the one benefit older players have is that they can fill multiple roles at once. Noobs simply have to choose 1 or 2 to start off with.
Tell me one role besides absurd stuff like capital ships that a noob cannot fill after 1 month of training if he focuses on it. You can't.
DPS in ships > frigate ?
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Calapine
Xeno Tech Corp
168
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Posted - 2013.02.16 05:08:00 -
[20] - Quote
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:Thur Barbek wrote: You want noobs to be able to tank and dps and ewar and more all at once. Eve is about specializing, the one benefit older players have is that they can fill multiple roles at once. Noobs simply have to choose 1 or 2 to start off with.
Tell me one role besides absurd stuff like capital ships that a noob cannot fill after 1 month of training if he focuses on it. You can't.
DPS in ships > frigate ?
For the heck of it I googled 'Hurricane pvp newbie fit' and imported it into a blank evemon character.
Result: 5 days 4hours. That includes all the basics: MWD, point, 2x LSE, rigs, DCU, Gryos, TEs and 2 utility neuts. Of course some support skills are needed, but all in all it still lands squarely below 1 month training time.
Now call me old fashioned, by I wouldn't recommend bringing 60m ISK worth of ship into your very first PVP fight two weeks into the game anyway. So where is the problem?
Pain is short, and joy is eternal. |
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Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
40
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Posted - 2013.02.16 09:03:00 -
[21] - Quote
Calapine wrote:Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:
DPS in ships > frigate ?
For the heck of it I googled 'Hurricane pvp newbie fit' and imported it into a blank evemon character. Result: 5 days 4 hours. That includes all the basics: MWD, point, 2x LSE, rigs, DCU, Gryos, TEs and 2 utility neuts. Of course some support skills are needed, but all in all it still lands squarely below 1 month training time.
Emphasys on DPS, not dps.
For the heck of it, I just put said hurricane with lvl 4 gunnery skills, T2 autocannon and BC 4 into EVEmon and ended up with 48d with ideal mapping. NO fitting or defensive skills whatsoever.
With only a subset of the skills given in the OP (minimum requirements for fitting a shield buffer and your 2 neuts, a bit of navigation, armor and struc bonus), and only at 4 I end up with 71 days while burning a bonus remap, 79 days when using per10/int4 for the whole plan.
So while the pure ship/weapon selection in this case MIGHT barely keep my friends within tolerance span for deciding if they like the game, the complete set - and again we're talking about the bare minimum I'd deem acceptable and I'm not even a pro PvPer - would certainly deter them from even trying. |
Calapine
Xeno Tech Corp
168
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Posted - 2013.02.16 09:35:00 -
[22] - Quote
Forum ate post and now no time to re-write. Will edit later. Pain is short, and joy is eternal. |
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
40
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Posted - 2013.02.16 09:44:00 -
[23] - Quote
Calapine wrote:Forum ate post and now no time to re-write. Will edit later.
Yeah, it's pretty bad right now. Backing up the draft doesn't really work either. However, what worked for me a couple times now was copying the text from the window opened by the draft link and pasting it into the editing window manually. |
Whang'Lo
300 Leet DPS
12
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Posted - 2013.02.16 10:18:00 -
[24] - Quote
Another possibility for the savy noob.
Make a whole crap ton of Isk and buy a character from the bazaar.
I never did that, but I was thinking about it.
I had over a billion Isk in the first couple of months of playing.
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Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
40
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Posted - 2013.02.16 10:22:00 -
[25] - Quote
Whang'Lo wrote:Another possibility for the savy noob.
Make a whole crap ton of Isk and buy a character from the bazaar.
I never did that, but I was thinking about it.
I had over a billion Isk in the first couple of months of playing.
That's really only an option if you could change name and appearance. |
Thur Barbek
Republic University Minmatar Republic
52
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Posted - 2013.02.17 10:43:00 -
[26] - Quote
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote: Emphasys on DPS, not dps.
For the heck of it, I just put said hurricane with lvl 4 gunnery skills, T2 autocannon and BC 4 into EVEmon and ended up with 48d with ideal mapping. NO fitting or defensive skills whatsoever.
With only a subset of the skills given in the OP (minimum requirements for fitting a shield buffer and your 2 neuts, a bit of navigation, armor and struc bonus), and only at 4 I end up with 71 days while burning a bonus remap, 79 days when using per10/int4 for the whole plan.
So while the pure ship/weapon selection in this case MIGHT barely keep my friends within tolerance span for deciding if they like the game, the complete set - and again we're talking about the bare minimum I'd deem acceptable and I'm not even a pro PvPer - would certainly deter them from even trying.
From a brand new character, set a training plan with what you mentioned except some gun support at 3 and not t2 guns. Most core skills and BC are at 4. 22.5 days to fly this (with no implants): http://i.imgur.com/XRTUncr.png (Note that the gun skills are shown at lvls 3/4). Also The cap booster is if the guy wants to fit neuts, they didn't fit with crap powergrid skills.
~50k ehp, 240 dps with NO drones. Also if the guy aims for AWU or gets a pg implant/better pg skills/or get a pg rig he can easily fit 2 med neuts as well. Add in a week to get 5 basic drones and you get another 30ish dps from t1 warriors Seems decent for 1 month. Not sure what you want from an almost brand new character. |
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
41
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Posted - 2013.02.17 12:05:00 -
[27] - Quote
Thur Barbek wrote:From a brand new character, set a training plan with what you mentioned except some gun support at 3 and not t2 guns. Most core skills and BC are at 4. 22.5 days to fly this (with no implants): http://i.imgur.com/XRTUncr.png
I'm sure Sonnenlegion (the OP's corp, btw) would be absolutely thrilled to fly with a guy having your arty fit.
So basically you're saying that if you lower requirements below my bare minimum, training times will be shorter. You find me somewhat unsurprised. |
Morguetheft
Winds of Dawn Kraken.
0
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Posted - 2013.02.18 22:04:00 -
[28] - Quote
What i see when i read these forums ...is all the old players bitching about us newer players wanting some freaking shorter queues..because they had to train those ridiculous times..wtf its like a broken record an the dudes right it takes all those skills to be up to par..I for one play a game to enjoy it not fill like i'm pulling teeth or trying to dig out a splinter with a butter knife..I Love Eves Graphics/pvp but the rest is blah |
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
43
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Posted - 2013.02.21 11:49:00 -
[29] - Quote
Morguetheft wrote:What i see when i read these forums ...is all the old players bitching about us newer players wanting some freaking shorter queues..because they had to train those ridiculous times..wtf its like a broken record an the dudes right it takes all those skills to be up to par..I for one play a game to enjoy it not fill like i'm pulling teeth or trying to dig out a splinter with a butter knife..I Love Eves Graphics/pvp but the rest is blah
I wonder if CCP is fully aware how deterring the SP system is for people considering to start a career in Eve. So far I got NONE of my friends into Eve and those guys checked out almost all the major MMOs.
I like the SP system in general, there should just be a bigger catch up mechanism than a 35 day minor boost to some stats - if you even activated your account in the right way to get that.
@CCP: Do you guys actually have a working mechanism to tell disguised ALT accounts apart from actual new player accounts? What are the statistics on new player retention? |
Ze4K DK
Little Willies Hoodlums Associates
2
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Posted - 2013.02.21 20:17:00 -
[30] - Quote
Morguetheft wrote: Love Eves Graphics/pvp but the rest is blah
Hahahaha... You cant be serious... Right? |
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