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dalman
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Posted - 2005.07.24 20:33:00 -
[1]
So, comming back to the game I felt there was far from good balance and decided to take a look at tracking vs range for some guns(using tech 2 version).
Here's the table, without considering shipbonuses (ie, add 25% to megathron);
Transversal velocity at range
Gun opti fall track O + F/2 O+F O/2+F
425rail: 57000 24000 0.009625 669 785.4 508.2
Electron: 4800 6000 0.05 390 540 420
D H Pulse: 21000 6000 0.03 720 810 495
Tachyon: 52800 20000 0.0139205 874.2 1013.4 645.2
1400mm: 48000 35000 0.009 589.5 747 531
d425mm: 3840 16000 0.054 639.36 1071.4 967.68
Result; there certainly aren't any good balance. The 425mm rail and especially the tachyon has WAY too good tracking. Actually: 20000x0.01392 = 278.4!!! Ie, a tachyon, meant for really long range, has no problem tracking a BS with afterburner @ 20 km range. What's the purpose of using short range guns in this game then???
Also, blasters are totally shafted. So, to really have a look at blasters, let's compare an electron to a d425mm:
(tracking, cap and damagemod is with BS lvl 5 included(megathron and tempest))
Gun opti fall track damage/s cap/s grid cpu
Electron II 4800 6000 .0625 0.47 3.11 1575 55
D425mm II 3840 16000 .054 0.49 0.89 1375 35
Megathron and Tempest has the same ammount of CPU and Grid.
So, seriously, wtf??
The autocannon do MORE damage/s, has WAY BETTER tracking*range, don't have CAP problems, and take up fitting reqs that makes a megathron pilot CRY for real.
Can we please get a tuning on tracking vs range for next patch?
\o/ rant of the day completed
Soon...
Very soon...
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Krulla
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Posted - 2005.07.24 20:39:00 -
[2]
You say the 425mm and tachy have way too good tracking; But that means 2 out of 3 big long range guns have way too good tracking.. the majority. Doesn't that just mean the 1400mm has too low tracking, since "way too good tracking" is the norm?
Respect the Domi. Or else. |
dalman
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Posted - 2005.07.24 20:44:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: Krulla
You say the 425mm and tachy have way too good tracking; But that means 2 out of 3 big long range guns have way too good tracking.. the majority. Doesn't that just mean the 1400mm has too low tracking, since "way too good tracking" is the norm?
Nope.
Because if 2 guns that are meant to hit good at 50km range can hit perfectly at 20km range, then it doesn't mean that the other guns should be boosted to the same silly lvl.
Soon...
Very soon...
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Dred 'Morte
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Posted - 2005.07.24 20:45:00 -
[4]
Originally by: dalman
Edited by: dalman on 24/07/2005 20:38:21
Can we please get a tuning on tracking vs range for next patch?
*edit* tried to make table readable
No
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Meehan
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Posted - 2005.07.24 20:52:00 -
[5]
You're going to be so flamed for having badmouthed projectiles.
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Bruchpilot
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Posted - 2005.07.24 21:21:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Meehan
You're going to be so flamed for having badmouthed projectiles.
Aye he's right. So here we go:
Quote:
Megathron and Tempest has the same ammount of CPU and Grid.
So, seriously, wtf??
The autocannon do MORE damage/s, has WAY BETTER tracking*range, don't have CAP problems, and take up fitting reqs that makes a megathron pilot CRY for real.
So wtf are you complaining? Fit Ion Blasters if you want damage. 800mm are the HIGHEST DAMAGING GUNS MINMATAR HAVE!
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Selim
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Posted - 2005.07.24 21:35:00 -
[7]
Megathron will far, far exceed the dps of a Tempest. By like 300 or more. So basically anything you say doesnt matter.
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DrunkenOne
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Posted - 2005.07.24 21:59:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Selim
Megathron will far, far exceed the dps of a Tempest. By like 300 or more. So basically anything you say doesnt matter.
Originally by: Sochin
CCP has provided you with the tools you need to avoid crime. You're just too lazy/stupid to use them.
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dalman
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Posted - 2005.07.24 22:00:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Bruchpilot
Quote:
Megathron and Tempest has the same ammount of CPU and Grid.
So, seriously, wtf??
The autocannon do MORE damage/s, has WAY BETTER tracking*range, don't have CAP problems, and take up fitting reqs that makes a megathron pilot CRY for real.
So wtf are you complaining? Fit Ion Blasters if you want damage. 800mm are the HIGHEST DAMAGING GUNS MINMATAR HAVE!
That was comparing electrons with DUAL425MM, not 800. Flamedrugs are bad, m'kay
But just to inform you:
Neutron: 0.53damagemod for 2888 grid and 72(!) CPU
800mm: 0.547damagemod for 2200 grid and 41 CPU
And at this stage too, the autocannon have a small tracking*range advantage.
Soon...
Very soon...
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XpoHoc
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Posted - 2005.07.24 23:03:00 -
[10]
Edited by: XpoHoc on 24/07/2005 23:05:38
Math is not everything, you know it.
Comparing guns without taking the ships they get used on into account is nonsense. (Megathron and Tempest have different ship bonuses, Megathron got 1 more low and turret slot...).
Lasers have amazing tracking that's true but I don't see a big problem with that, they have like all other guns their disadvantages.
I really think EVE is getting as close as you can be to being a balanced game in matter of ships/modules in most cases, especially with battleships.
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Nekhad Jormuzzar
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Posted - 2005.07.24 23:08:00 -
[11]
I don't get your point regarding the 425mm. You complain that it hit's too easily at 20km, yet it has just a 6.67% advantage in tracking when compared to the 1400mm (both firing at the same distance).
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Daenarys
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Posted - 2005.07.25 00:10:00 -
[12]
Erm, tachyons have the worst range of the guns and the worst damage output considering fitting reqs. Sure they have the tracking but still cant hit a smart interceptor at 150km. And you need like several tracking things to get consistent hits against a stationary object at 150km.
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Eyeshadow
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Posted - 2005.07.25 00:22:00 -
[13]
The main thing ur forgetting is that mega fits 7 guns, tempest only 6 (in most cases anyway)
Forums: Sharks * MC |
KamiCrazy
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Posted - 2005.07.25 00:26:00 -
[14]
They buffed autocannons because minmatar pilots kept complaining about how they were too ****ty compared to blasters.
Which was absolutely retarded because they are now just as good as blasters, but use no cap, and have better fitting.
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DrunkenOne
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Posted - 2005.07.25 00:28:00 -
[15]
Originally by: KamiCrazy
They buffed autocannons because minmatar pilots kept complaining about how they were too ****ty compared to blasters.
Which was absolutely retarded because they are now just as good as blasters, but use no cap, and have better fitting.
ROFL.
Compared 200 IIs on a claw with neutrons on a taranis, and tell me what does more damage.
Originally by: Sochin
CCP has provided you with the tools you need to avoid crime. You're just too lazy/stupid to use them.
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KamiCrazy
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Posted - 2005.07.25 00:33:00 -
[16]
Compare gank tempest to gank mega. The mega will barely edge out. If the tempest has 2 large energy neuts its likely the mega will run out of cap before it can even kill the tempest.
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Grimpak
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Posted - 2005.07.25 00:43:00 -
[17]
Originally by: KamiCrazy
Compare gank tempest to gank mega. The mega will barely edge out. If the tempest has 2 large energy neuts its likely the mega will run out of cap before it can even kill the tempest.
no wonder, since the tempest has 2 damage bonuses, vs 1 damage bonus in the megathron.
...althou it's also true that the mega has 1 more low than the tempest (and 1 more gun slot).
-------------------
Quote:
Fragm's Oversized Ego Cannon barely scratches the forums, inflicting omgnoonecares damage
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KamiCrazy
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Posted - 2005.07.25 00:47:00 -
[18]
Edited by: KamiCrazy on 25/07/2005 00:47:40
Its not just the bonuses, the cap usage on 7 neutron blaster cannons is insane. In fact unless you decide to use lasers on a megathron, no other gun comes close to the cap per a sec.
I really wouldn't care about the fittings or similar damage as long as the cap use wasn't as bad.
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DrunkenOne
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Posted - 2005.07.25 01:30:00 -
[19]
Originally by: KamiCrazy
Compare gank tempest to gank mega. The mega will barely edge out. If the tempest has 2 large energy neuts its likely the mega will run out of cap before it can even kill the tempest.
lol a well flown autotempest will always kill a blasterthron, but that has nothing to do with damage. And a "gankmega" (7 neutron IIs 7 mag stab IIs) does a RIDICULOUS amount more damage than a "ganktempest (6 800 IIs 6 gyro IIs). Remember you also got 8 drones, and then remember that there are more ship classes than battleships.
Taranis vs claw
Deimos vs muninn
Blasterenyo vs autowolf
Compare those damages.
Originally by: Sochin
CCP has provided you with the tools you need to avoid crime. You're just too lazy/stupid to use them.
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KamiCrazy
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Posted - 2005.07.25 02:26:00 -
[20]
Damage is not everything I understand that, which is entirely why other variables are also included in this discussion mainly the effect of range and tracking and also cap usage.
The fact that a tempest can beat a mage in a close quarters environment (which the mega is supposed to excel at) regardless of damage shows the flaw.
The smaller ship classes do not conform this way due to several reasons including
Limited slots
Different methods/strats for capacitor use
Poor fitting for minmatar ships
Alternate bonuses instead of having 2 gun bonuses
Effect drones have at smaller classes
In any way regardless of your opinion, because frankly I do not agree with you. I do not believe that the penalties for blasters namely range and cap use justify the mediocre dmg difference to autocannons. If megathrons didn't have hybrid bonuses I wouldn't think twice of swapping over.
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dalman
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Posted - 2005.07.25 13:34:00 -
[21]
Originally by: DrunkenOne
lol a well flown autotempest will always kill a blasterthron, but that has nothing to do with damage.
That was EXACTLY the point.
It is not because of damage as they are quite similiar.
But the Tempest has lots of spare CPU and Grid to fit other stuff.
And the Tempest has lots of spare CAP to use other stuff.
And when it comes down to killing other ships, for example;
blasterthron vs geddon and autotempest vs geddon, then the Tempest is much better due to the _much_ longer range on the guns (yet they have the same tracking when you get really close). And the tempest is also faster and have less sig radius.
Soon...
Very soon...
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Nervar
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Posted - 2005.07.25 13:58:00 -
[22]
Keep inn mind that inn order for the AC tempy to compare to others its gotta stack dmg mods. And the abundance of cpu you talk about quickly gets chewed up by the fact that tempy shield tanks.
We might have somewhat better stats on paper but your missing a whole bunch of things that needs to bee put into the equation.
------------------------------------------------->
What I look forward to is continued immaturity followed by death.
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DrunkenOne
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Posted - 2005.07.25 13:59:00 -
[23]
Edited by: DrunkenOne on 25/07/2005 14:01:00
Originally by: dalman
Originally by: DrunkenOne
lol a well flown autotempest will always kill a blasterthron, but that has nothing to do with damage.
That was EXACTLY the point.
It is not because of damage as they are quite similiar.
But the Tempest has lots of spare CPU and Grid to fit other stuff.
And the Tempest has lots of spare CAP to use other stuff.
Nah, nothin to do with grid or cpu or cap. If the mega gets within web range, the tempest dies. If it doesnt, vice versa. Nothing to do with grid or cap or cpu or anything. Megas damage output, with drones, is still something like 2x a tempests. And to achieve decent damage at all, the tempets needs to stack gyro IIs in lows, giving it either A) No tank, or B) a shield tank using only 2 mids (need that ab/mwd, web, scrambler), meaning all that "spare cap" is used fast on a worthless shield tank.
Originally by: Sochin
CCP has provided you with the tools you need to avoid crime. You're just too lazy/stupid to use them.
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DrunkenOne
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Posted - 2005.07.25 14:23:00 -
[24]
Edited by: DrunkenOne on 25/07/2005 14:24:02
Also, you arent factoring into your damage calcs the fact that Minny's best short range ammo does 44 damage while antimatter does 48 damage, an extra ~9% damage which is HUGE considering that extra 4 damage is coming from 7 guns and being modified by a ridiculously high damage mod
Originally by: Sochin
CCP has provided you with the tools you need to avoid crime. You're just too lazy/stupid to use them.
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TILTISCH
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Posted - 2005.07.25 14:25:00 -
[25]
Originally by: DrunkenOne
Edited by: DrunkenOne on 25/07/2005 14:09:32
Originally by: KamiCrazy
The fact that a tempest can beat a mage in a close quarters environment (which the mega is supposed to excel at) regardless of damage shows the flaw.
It cant. A mega will always beat a tempest in a close range (under 10km) fight, unless the tempest is in some weird EW setup. Hell I'm fairly certain even a gankpest will die to a tanked blasterthron. You underestimate the ridiculously low damage tempests do. Sure, good dot, but thats cause autocannons fire really fast, not because they do good damage. And slower RoF + more damage >>> Fast RoF + less damage, since most fights are over so quick the RoF doesnt factor in as much.
And you are still forgetting (or ignoring) the fact that the mega gets an extra 2 heavy drones, and an extra low for damage mods. Sure a tempest has an extra mid, but who cares. In a gank setup the extra mid is really only good for shield tanking, which sucks on a tempest, or for putting on a EW mod, which means you are only good vs 1 race. Or you could go armor tanked and fit mwd/web/scrambler/heavy cap booster, still have the free mid in which nothing is useful, and now you do crap damage.
Originally by: dalman
Originally by: DrunkenOne
lol a well flown autotempest will always kill a blasterthron, but that has nothing to do with damage.
That was EXACTLY the point.
It is not because of damage as they are quite similiar.
But the Tempest has lots of spare CPU and Grid to fit other stuff.
And the Tempest has lots of spare CAP to use other stuff.
Nah, nothin to do with grid or cpu or cap. If the mega gets within web range, the tempest dies. If it doesnt, vice versa. Nothing to do with grid or cap or cpu or anything. Megas damage output, with drones, is still something like 2x a tempests. And to achieve decent damage at all, the tempets needs to stack gyro IIs in lows, giving it either A) No tank, or B) a shield tank using only 2 mids (need that ab/mwd, web, scrambler), meaning all that "spare cap" is used fast on a worthless shield tank that a blasterthron rips through in about 2 seconds.
Trust me when I say I wish I hadn't trained minny BS and gotten gallante instead. Mega/Domi 4tw :(
Never u say ?
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Muad 'dib
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Posted - 2005.07.25 14:29:00 -
[26]
Originally by: DrunkenOne
Trust me when I say I wish I hadn't trained minny BS and gotten gallante instead. Mega/Domi 4tw :(
Same as. 
Tho i am liking the single volly dmg, it hardly makes up for all the aggro over the last 12 months (and tempest sucking bigtime for bout 4-6 months of that).
At least its usable now, even if it is only slighty behind the rest.
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DrunkenOne
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Posted - 2005.07.25 14:34:00 -
[27]
Edited by: DrunkenOne on 25/07/2005 14:35:29
Originally by: TILTISCH
Never u say ?
I urge you to fight a max skilled blasterthron pilot, in a full gank setup, with any possible autosetup you could come up with as long as it doesnt use jamming, and win while in web range. The blasterthron does about 300dps more than you with both of you in gank setups, not counting the 2 extra heavy drones he has. Sure, a tempest might win 10% of the time, against guys with bad fittings/bad skills/idiot pilots, but doesn't that prove my point?
Originally by: Sochin
CCP has provided you with the tools you need to avoid crime. You're just too lazy/stupid to use them.
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TILTISCH
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Posted - 2005.07.25 14:43:00 -
[28]
Originally by: DrunkenOne
Edited by: DrunkenOne on 25/07/2005 14:35:29
Originally by: TILTISCH
Never u say ?
I urge you to fight a max skilled blasterthron pilot, in a full gank setup, with any possible autosetup you could come up with as long as it doesnt use jamming, and win while in web range. The blasterthron does about 300dps more than you with both of you in gank setups, not counting the 2 extra heavy drones he has. Sure, a tempest might win 10% of the time, against guys with bad fittings/bad skills/idiot pilots, but doesn't that prove my point?
Can't really argu against ya here , but I have however seen soem really god megapilots go down to autos ...not from me won hands so I can't really argue but I wll be back on the issue 
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DrunkenOne
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Posted - 2005.07.25 14:46:00 -
[29]
RAW numbers:
Mega w/ 7 neutron IIs w/ all skills @ 5
4.2x base damage mod * 1.25 *1.25 * 1.15 * 1.10
7.875 base RoF * .75 * .9
~8.302x damage mod
~5.316 RoF
Antimatter large = 48 damage
(8.302/5.316) * 48 * 7 = 524.731 dps
w/ 7 mag stab IIs
12.51x damage mod
3.3 RoF
(12.51/3.3) * 48 * 7 = 1273.74 dps
Pest w/ 6 800 IIs w/ all skills @ 5
2.31x base damage mod *1.25 *1.25 *1.15 *1.10
5.625 base RoF *.75 *.75 *.9
4.566x damage mod
2.85 RoF
EMP L = 44 damage
(4.566/2.85) * 44 * 6 = 422.956 dps
w/ 6 gyro IIs
6.58x damage mod
1.86 RoF
(6.58/1.86) * 44 * 6 = 933.935 dps
340 more dps, both in gank setups, not counting the megas 2 heavy drones. Sticking 2 siege w/ torps on a tempest brings the damage a bit closer, but that also means the tempest needs good missile skills as well as max proj and bs skills, meaning hes needs a lot more skillpoints than a mega. Also I'm not even sure if a pest has the cpu to put on 2 siege along with 6 gyro IIs, a mwd web and scrambler, as I dont use siege. If someone can give me a good "normal" blasterthron setup (ie not pure gank) I can calc that vs a tanked tempest setup.
Originally by: Sochin
CCP has provided you with the tools you need to avoid crime. You're just too lazy/stupid to use them.
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Loka
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Posted - 2005.07.25 14:55:00 -
[30]
Originally by: DrunkenOne
Edited by: DrunkenOne on 25/07/2005 14:24:02
Also, you arent factoring into your damage calcs the fact that Minny's best short range ammo does 44 damage while antimatter does 48 damage, an extra ~9% damage which is HUGE considering that extra 4 damage is coming from 7 guns and being modified by a ridiculously high damage mod
Sometimes you are right and sometimes you are not :D
Fusion > Antimatter. Even when both are tanked, which most arentm, 50% res < 65% right? :D
Together with the fact, that Project wont need any cap (full cap left for defense and MWD) i would say AutoTempest >= Blasterthron. Thats ofc my personal opinion.
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Dead or Alive
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