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Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
712
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Posted - 2013.02.20 13:12:00 -
[1] - Quote
Let me preface this: I'm not personally invested in the Hurricane.It was a pretty nice ship, I used it now and again, but haven't touched it much since the debut of the Tornado. And yes, the Hurricane was clearly the "2nd best Battlecruiser" though the Drake far out stripped it in general usage.
I suicide gank carebears. The Cane is not a suicide gank-ship. So idiots out there who will to accuse me of 'shedding tears for the FOTM', stop right there and engage your brain first.
However, I am wondering if CCP went a bit overboard on beating it into the ground - relative to the other BC's. It didn't escape my attention that it is the ONLY BC to receive an "across the board" nerf, in addition to a 'pre-nerf'. (most of the other changes were either buffs or nerfs with compensating buffs - including the Drake)
Cane just got beat hard with the ugly stick: -less Powergrid -Slower -Less highslots -Less EHP
One of the things that previously made the Hurricane kind of unique was is its twin-damage/ROF bonus. The 'cane, more than any other ship needed that Battlecruiser V to really shine. While having one less turret slot than most of its peers, the 'extra DPS' racial bonus allowed it to stay competitive in the damage race - and fit other toys for flexibility.
NOW: The six-turret, "double-damage" arrangement has been introduced almost across the board. The Brutix, the Drake, the Harbinger all have been given this arrangement. The Myrm and Prophecy also been given large damage bonuses on drones and bay buffs.
Except, the "extra damage" has been given in the form of a nice, compact 50% damage buff. That left design space for an ADDITIONAL bonus, depending on the race. (Armor Reps, Shield/Armor Resists, Cap)
While the Hurricane is still saddled with two 'obsolete' 25% bonuses, that, combined are essentially equal to a single bonus on the any of the other ships.
Now, I understand that there is more to balance. Projectiles are not Missiles are not Lasers are not Blasters. Other fitting characteristics come into play as well. (Amarr, in particular, complain that a cap-reduction bonus is essentially useless when most other weapon systems are naturally 'capless'.)
Now, the patch just hit, and it remains to be seen how things pan out But my gut feeling is that the Hurricane is going to fall pretty short...... ....in this brave new world of Battlecruisers where 10% Damage/level bonuses are now standard issue on every hull.
Perhaps a bump up to 7.5% for ROF or damage would be in order?
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Dante Uisen
Push button receive bacon
113
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Posted - 2013.02.20 13:19:00 -
[2] - Quote
Herr Wilkus wrote: NOW: The six-turret, "double-damage" arrangement has been introduced almost across the board. The Brutix, the Drake, the Harbinger all have been given this arrangement.
don't the brutix have a damage and armor rep bonus, and the harbinger has damage / reduced cap? from the patch notes the only bc with dual damage bonus i noticed was the hurricane. |
Hannott Thanos
Notorious Legion
371
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Posted - 2013.02.20 13:21:00 -
[3] - Quote
It's so stupid with people saying that the cap use bonus is useless. A harb does what, 500 dps out past point range with a shield fit? It out-dps's a cane at that range by far, and it costs a buttload of cap to do so. That cap bonus will determine if you win the fight or not.
Oh so you wanted to mwd after the cane when it tries to get away? Can't do that with no cap bro. Cap bonus is good, mkay? |
Hannott Thanos
Notorious Legion
371
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Posted - 2013.02.20 13:22:00 -
[4] - Quote
Dante Uisen wrote:Herr Wilkus wrote: NOW: The six-turret, "double-damage" arrangement has been introduced almost across the board. The Brutix, the Drake, the Harbinger all have been given this arrangement.
don't the brutix have a damage and armor rep bonus? Yeah, so it basically has the same bonuses as the cane.
A double damage bonus and a useless bonus.
Cane has 2 useful bonuses and no wasted bonuses. So that makes it even.
Except that the Brutix does 1100 dps at close range |
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
713
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Posted - 2013.02.20 13:27:00 -
[5] - Quote
Dante Uisen wrote:Herr Wilkus wrote: NOW: The six-turret, "double-damage" arrangement has been introduced almost across the board. The Brutix, the Drake, the Harbinger all have been given this arrangement.
don't the brutix have a damage and armor rep bonus?
Maybe I wasn't 100% clear. Think of it this way: Each ship has 2 'Racial bonus' slots.
Brutix has: 10%/level Damage bonus and a 7.5%/level Armor Rep bonus.
Hurricane has: A 5% ROF and a 5% damage bonus/per level.
The point, is that two 25% damage bonuses are essentially the same as granting a single 50% damage bonus.
Of course there are plenty of other balancing points, but it seems that the Hurricane missed out a bit when CCP started handing out 10% bonuses like candy.....
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Jada Maroo
Southern Cross Empire Flying Dangerous
1022
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Posted - 2013.02.20 13:31:00 -
[6] - Quote
It was definitely overbalanced. We've gone from everyone using Canes to everyone planning to use anything but. |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
1393
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Posted - 2013.02.20 13:40:00 -
[7] - Quote
Jada Maroo wrote:It was definitely overbalanced. We've gone from everyone using Canes to everyone planning to use anything but.
CCP does then to use jackhammers where a scalpel would have been better lol. |
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
713
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Posted - 2013.02.20 13:42:00 -
[8] - Quote
Hannott Thanos wrote:Dante Uisen wrote:Herr Wilkus wrote: NOW: The six-turret, "double-damage" arrangement has been introduced almost across the board. The Brutix, the Drake, the Harbinger all have been given this arrangement.
don't the brutix have a damage and armor rep bonus? Yeah, so it basically has the same bonuses as the cane. A double damage bonus and a useless bonus. Cane has 2 useful bonuses and no wasted bonuses. So that makes it even. Except that the Brutix does 1100 dps at close range
Hey, I'm not disappointed in the Brutix. If it can do more damage, it becomes a more viable ganking platform, with significantly less turret expense....
And maybe the Brutix/Myrm 'Active Rep' bonus is 'less' useful, than say, .....the EHP Resists of the Drake or the Prophecy - but its still a net positive, vs the goose-egg the Hurricane sports.
Like I said, balancing is a complicated thing. But something tells me that the 5% + 5% bonuses given to the 'Cane' just aren't going to cut it, now that 10% Damage bonuses are nearly universal on the other hulls.
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Merouk Baas
566
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Posted - 2013.02.20 13:47:00 -
[9] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:CCP does then to use jackhammers where a scalpel would have been better lol.
It's normally a sound business and design decision, when paired with their "ongoing balance, we'll revisit and revise the ships with every patch" policy. They want us to stop using Hurricanes and try other ships.
The problem is that they're horrible at actually going back and doing their job with the "ongoing" part of the balance. They've ALWAYS always over-nerfed and then moved on to bigger and better things. They never support their changes, they just move on to new toys/technology.
It's frustrating. |
Whitehound
881
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Posted - 2013.02.20 13:52:00 -
[10] - Quote
Herr Wilkus wrote:Dante Uisen wrote:Herr Wilkus wrote: NOW: The six-turret, "double-damage" arrangement has been introduced almost across the board. The Brutix, the Drake, the Harbinger all have been given this arrangement.
don't the brutix have a damage and armor rep bonus? Maybe I wasn't 100% clear. Think of it this way: Each ship has 2 'Racial bonus' slots. Brutix has: 10%/level Damage bonus and a 7.5%/level Armor Rep bonus. Hurricane has: A 5% ROF and a 5% damage bonus/per level. The point, is that two 25% damage bonuses are essentially the same as granting a single 50% damage bonus. Of course there are plenty of other balancing points, but it seems that the Hurricane missed out a bit when CCP started handing out 10% bonuses like candy..... So what do you suggest then? Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling. |
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Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
713
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Posted - 2013.02.20 14:10:00 -
[11] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Herr Wilkus wrote:Dante Uisen wrote:Herr Wilkus wrote: NOW: The six-turret, "double-damage" arrangement has been introduced almost across the board. The Brutix, the Drake, the Harbinger all have been given this arrangement.
don't the brutix have a damage and armor rep bonus? Maybe I wasn't 100% clear. Think of it this way: Each ship has 2 'Racial bonus' slots. Brutix has: 10%/level Damage bonus and a 7.5%/level Armor Rep bonus. Hurricane has: A 5% ROF and a 5% damage bonus/per level. The point, is that two 25% damage bonuses are essentially the same as granting a single 50% damage bonus. Of course there are plenty of other balancing points, but it seems that the Hurricane missed out a bit when CCP started handing out 10% bonuses like candy..... So what do you suggest then?
Originally, the thing that made the Cane kind of unique was essentially: "Bonuses mean equal damage with less turrets, making room for utility highs/versatility"
This 'theme' is now common in almost all battlecruisers, except they achieve it with a single (large) racial damage bonus. And having 'utility highs' is now, more or less standard issue - the 'Cane lost its 'extra' slot.
I'd consider either: A) consolidating the two 'old' bonuses into a standard 10% Projectile damage/level and figure out a 'new' capability that gives the 'Cane something unique or at least distinguishing.
B) Or if 'twin damage bonus' is meant to be the Hurricane's thing, give it a half-bump up to 7.5% Damage/level, while leaving the ROF the same.
At level V: Currently: 1.25 * 1.25 = 1.56 (comparable to the 1.5 from the 10% damage bonus)
With a 7.5% Dam/5% ROF 1.325 * 1.25 = 1.72 (a bump, compensating for lack of tank bonuses and '1x utility highs' now being universal...)
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
7703
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Posted - 2013.02.20 14:58:00 -
[12] - Quote
Herr Wilkus wrote:
The point, is that two 25% damage bonuses are essentially the same as granting a single 50% damage bonus.
No they aren't
1.25/0.75 is quite a lot more than 1.5 Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2026
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Posted - 2013.02.20 15:23:00 -
[13] - Quote
It didn't lose any turrets like the ships that needed the 10% dmg bonus to compensate, and it still has as much grid as the Brutix, even though it uses less pg-intensive weapons.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Karak Bol
Crepuscular
62
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Posted - 2013.02.20 15:51:00 -
[14] - Quote
Do the math correctly buddy. A 25% reduction in cycle time equals a 33% damage bonus (Cycle time down from "1" to "0,75", three Shots vs four shots in the same time). While a Brutix carries now an equivalent of 9 turrets (6*1.5) a Cane carries 9,975 (6*1.25*1.33) almost one turret more. |
Hakaimono
Stillwater Corporation
47
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Posted - 2013.02.20 16:24:00 -
[15] - Quote
Tired of seeing Canes everywhere anyways. May the new Brutix serve its pilots well. |
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
713
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Posted - 2013.02.20 16:36:00 -
[16] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Herr Wilkus wrote:
The point, is that two 25% damage bonuses are essentially the same as granting a single 50% damage bonus.
No they aren't 1.25/0.75 is quite a lot more than 1.5
Good call, its a rate. So, rather than a straight multiplication, its divided.
Still, 1.25/0.75 = 1.66 vs 1.5 for the other ships.
Yet, the point stands.
Previously other BC's had a 25% bonus (plus another turret, so call it 1.44)
So, what are we looking at? The Cane has a roughly 10% bonus in generic damage. In exchange for an entire 'racial bonus' slot.
Factor in the removal of the Hurricane's 'extra' utility high, while simultaneously giving utility highs to all other BC's.
Its just very underwhelming - and quite possibly lacking.
I understand the point of knocking down the Hurricane a peg, but reducing it to 'crap' when BCs are supposed to be roughly 'equal' after tiericide.
Also, some of the comments strike me as, "Hey, the Hurricane was 2nd best for a long time, now it needs to suck hard." Nonsense. Besides, it would be a shame if such a good looking hull was wrecked by a bad balance pass, in exchange for flying fugly-ass Brutixes.
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Dav Varan
Caltech Shipyards
2
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Posted - 2013.02.20 17:31:00 -
[17] - Quote
ROF bonuses are more powerful than damage bonuses because of the way the maths works.
dps from a 5% rof bonus is calculated 100 / ( 100 - 5 * LvL )
at level 5
dps = 100 / ( 100 - 5 * 5 ) = 133.3333%
multiple in the damage bonus
Total dps increase = 133.3333% * 125% = 166.666%
so cane gets 66% more dps at lvl 5 in all damage types better than the 50% dps increase of the other races in specific damge types.
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Gabriel Karade
Noir. Black Legion.
30
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Posted - 2013.02.20 17:52:00 -
[18] - Quote
The other BC (aside from the new Cyclone) are still locked down to 2 or even just 1 damage type, while the Hurricane still has the flexability to jump from EMP to Phased Plasma to Fusion depending on the situation.
That's still a pretty big deal.
Also, ROF bonus on capless weapons systems = winsauce
Gallente MkII: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1227770 War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293 |
Makavelia
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
7
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Posted - 2013.02.20 18:11:00 -
[19] - Quote
Just becuase people jumped onto the cane band wagon it does not mean people like me (who chose mini with no prior knowledge to the ships) should be punished. I remained a pure mini piolit and i intend to remain so, why go off training FOTM bs to see it get nerfed?.. and why fly something i don't even want to fly... for no other reason thatn it's the current OP.
Rifter sux now.. that was one of my liked options.
Stealth bomber now sucks unless in a specialised pack or nul. Gone are the solo FUN days.
T2 torp Typhoon is not useble in any area of the game i am playing or intend to get back into ( exploration - pve - low/high sec pvp ). Although i have trained shield skills well enough to field a good maelstrom.. i still lack the t2 guns to make it realy worth while. But even in training those guns, why?.. BS's are so situation or restricted to pve.
So i have to ask, why should a player like me continue to play eve? where is my enjoyment when everything i have trained for has been nerfed to **** or made totaly situational i MUST live in X location to use just 1 ship type.. then Y location to use the other.
The cane will no longer be able to serve me in solo C2 WH., the need for probe/salvy/vamp (passive tank) simply hits to hard to lose another turret. They were not huge isk makers but it was something i persue for fun. I will still be able to use the cane for 4/10 exploration but i have to choose between losing tank/dps/cap stability or else pay for faction mods to armor tank (should you need to faction fit a t1 bc?? cmon). In pvp it's just a flat 70dps loss.. and for no good reason given the counter buffs to other bc.
I guess i came to say ''thnx ccp for destroying the only ship lef tin any fit state that i trained for''.
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Paikis
Vapour Holdings
651
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Posted - 2013.02.20 18:33:00 -
[20] - Quote
Makavelia wrote:why should a player like me continue to play eve?
You shouldn't, can I have your stuff? |
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Makavelia
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
7
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Posted - 2013.02.20 18:46:00 -
[21] - Quote
Paikis wrote:Makavelia wrote:why should a player like me continue to play eve? You shouldn't, can I have your stuff?
When you can be more original. Conformity at it's worst.
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Mister Tuggles
Prime Numbers
32
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Posted - 2013.02.20 19:12:00 -
[22] - Quote
With all of the nerfs raining down on the Minmatar I am glad I have not taken projectiles past t2 smalls. CCP is going way overboard when it comes to their balancing act. Great ships before like the rifter, cane, thrasher, etc, are now damn near the bottom of the pile in terms of viability vs other ships.
Oh well, time to train up hybrids and missiles. |
Tsai Ashitaka
Aether Ventures Surely You're Joking
10
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Posted - 2013.02.20 19:19:00 -
[23] - Quote
Makavelia wrote:Conformity at it's worst.
Said the guy complaining about his rifter/hurricane.
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Makavelia
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
7
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Posted - 2013.02.20 19:50:00 -
[24] - Quote
Tsai Ashitaka wrote:Makavelia wrote:Conformity at it's worst.
Said the guy complaining about his rifter/hurricane.
Reading comprehension at it's worst.
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Tsai Ashitaka
Aether Ventures Surely You're Joking
11
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Posted - 2013.02.20 19:55:00 -
[25] - Quote
Makavelia wrote:Tsai Ashitaka wrote:Makavelia wrote:Conformity at it's worst.
Said the guy complaining about his rifter/hurricane. Reading comprehension at it's worst.
All the BCs are in a pretty good state right now. The cane went from "hilariously good at everything" to "well-balanced with other battlecruisers" and you're whining about how they've removed all reason you have for playing.
HTFU and deal with it. The cane is still a fantastic ship (it has the highest damage modifier of the battlecruisers, can be effectively fit for both shield and armor, fires cap-less/selectable-damage-type weapons, and has enough fitting for a utility high).
Jesus christ. The drake-whiners weren't this bad. |
Buzzy Warstl
The Strontium Asylum
478
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Posted - 2013.02.20 20:03:00 -
[26] - Quote
Tsai Ashitaka wrote: The drake-whiners weren't this bad. Give it a month. I'm not sure the Drake whiners are even done yet, and now they get to whine about the HM nerf when trying out the Cyclone as well. http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs |
Zarnak Wulf
In Exile.
1046
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Posted - 2013.02.20 20:21:00 -
[27] - Quote
The loss of a slot could be seen a mile away. That it was going to be a utility slot was also a safe bet. The slight loss if agility and EHP was also expected. The thing that does the Hurricane in though was the huge PG nerf. On most of the other BC you can now fit the largest tier guns and an impressive buffer tank.
Ferox - neutron rack, small neut, two LSE Harbinger- Heavy Pulses and 1600mm plate. Brutix - neutron rack, small cap booster, and MAAR or Ions, med cap booster, and MAAR + MAR2
None of the above require a fitting mod. You want 220mm, 1600 plate and a medium neut? 3% pg needed. Or how about a **** shield tank? (agility got nerfed so it isn't even that good anymore). You will need a small neut with your 425s. Taken on their own this is a nod that the Hurricane had it too good for too long. But every other BC got the equivalent of a grid buff- either via slot reduction and bonus change or directly. |
Hannott Thanos
Notorious Legion
374
|
Posted - 2013.02.20 20:22:00 -
[28] - Quote
Buzzy Warstl wrote:Tsai Ashitaka wrote: The drake-whiners weren't this bad. Give it a month. I'm not sure the Drake whiners are even done yet, and now they get to whine about the HM nerf when trying out the Cyclone as well.
Drake whiner #473864835 wrote:This isn't even my final form!!!!
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Tsai Ashitaka
Aether Ventures Surely You're Joking
11
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Posted - 2013.02.20 21:16:00 -
[29] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote:The loss of a slot could be seen a mile away. That it was going to be a utility slot was also a safe bet. The slight loss if agility and EHP was also expected. The thing that does the Hurricane in though was the huge PG nerf. On most of the other BC you can now fit the largest tier guns and an impressive buffer tank.
Ferox - neutron rack, small neut, two LSE Harbinger- Heavy Pulses and 1600mm plate. Brutix - neutron rack, small cap booster, and MAAR or Ions, med cap booster, and MAAR + MAR2
None of the above require a fitting mod. You want 220mm, 1600 plate and a medium neut? 3% pg needed. Or how about a **** shield tank? (agility got nerfed so it isn't even that good anymore). You will need a small neut with your 425s. Taken on their own this is a nod that the Hurricane had it too good for too long. But every other BC got the equivalent of a grid buff- either via slot reduction and bonus change or directly.
Why do you think the hurricane is the only one allowed to fit a medium neut?
You have a small on the ferox and none on the other two.
Downgrade it to a small and be done with it. You already have cap-less/damage-selectable weapons with the highest damage modifier (66%).
You're not entitled to medium neuts because that's how they were before. You need to have concessions like all the other battlecruisers.
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Atrocitas
3137
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Posted - 2013.02.20 21:42:00 -
[30] - Quote
Herr Wilkus wrote: Cane just got beat hard with the ugly stick: -less Powergrid -Slower -Less highslots -Less EHP
It's still fine.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Atrocitas
3137
|
Posted - 2013.02.20 21:42:00 -
[31] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote:The loss of a slot could be seen a mile away. That it was going to be a utility slot was also a safe bet. The slight loss if agility and EHP was also expected. The thing that does the Hurricane in though was the huge PG nerf. On most of the other BC you can now fit the largest tier guns and an impressive buffer tank.
Ferox - neutron rack, small neut, two LSE Harbinger- Heavy Pulses and 1600mm plate. Brutix - neutron rack, small cap booster, and MAAR or Ions, med cap booster, and MAAR + MAR2
None of the above require a fitting mod. You want 220mm, 1600 plate and a medium neut? 3% pg needed. Or how about a **** shield tank? (agility got nerfed so it isn't even that good anymore). You will need a small neut with your 425s. Taken on their own this is a nod that the Hurricane had it too good for too long. But every other BC got the equivalent of a grid buff- either via slot reduction and bonus change or directly.
Please post your Binger with HPL + 1600 plate.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Deacon Abox
Justified Chaos
44
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Posted - 2013.02.20 21:46:00 -
[32] - Quote
Hannott Thanos wrote:Buzzy Warstl wrote:Tsai Ashitaka wrote: The drake-whiners weren't this bad. Give it a month. I'm not sure the Drake whiners are even done yet, and now they get to whine about the HM nerf when trying out the Cyclone as well. Drake whiner #473864835 wrote:This isn't even my final form!!!! Yeah the drake whiners were this bad and worse. It's just atht they spent a lot of their tantrum quotient already in the features and ideas thread. 300+ pages of it. Whereas the Cane chauvanists hardly whined at all there. The Drake people may revive their indignation. But may realize nothing has changed and Drake fleets will still abound.
Then came the rebalance. The Cane is ****, the Harby is ****. Prophecy is now rather good. Drake unfortunately was not further nerfed enough, and is still too good, both in HM or HAM configurations. The Cyclone, Brutix, Myrm are all rather stuck in a style of play (solo, very small gang) that is not the norm for eve. Then there is the Ferox which is better than those three but still sorta meh, at least until the tier 3 BC rebalancing/nerf comes.
If any ship deserved to be nerfed into the Stone Age it was the Drake. The Cane only deserved to be sent to the Bronze Age. Instead Cane -> Stone age, Drake -> still present day. Oh and Harby kept in stone age. Brutix and Myrm stuck in the middle ages (In my shiney armor and on my sturdy steed I challenge you sir to an honorable duel . . Hey that fellow is being dishonorable and overwhelming my nanobots with his seconds . . grgl ahrghhhhhh). But gotta love the new paradigm, Fat Space Chickens v Male Ducks.
So where is the "rebalance". It was more like a substitution of competitor to the eternal waterfowl overlord. |
Cindy Marco
Expanse Security
124
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Posted - 2013.02.20 22:22:00 -
[33] - Quote
You can't always get the best of every update. Minny ships are taking some hits, if it gets bad at some point it will swing back.
But look at the bright side, you should already have gun/missile, armor/shield and drone skills. All you need is the ship skill and you can switch to whatever race you choose if your no longer happy with our ships. |
Gabriel Karade
Noir. Black Legion.
31
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Posted - 2013.02.20 23:24:00 -
[34] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote: None of the above require a fitting mod. You want 220mm, 1600 plate and a medium neut? 3% pg needed.
2% implant is sufficient, but if you drop to 180 II's you don't need that either.
Gallente MkII: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1227770 War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293 |
Savnire Jacitu
The Void Has Eyes
65
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Posted - 2013.02.21 00:01:00 -
[35] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote: Please post your Binger with HPL + 1600 plate.
-Liang
Ed: The only way I see this without a fitting mod is if you forego your cap booster. Which is like. LOL.
I scrapped my capp booster for a duel webing heavy pulsing 1600mm harby. It works. I keep that one and one that has a cap booster and downs to focused with a medium nuet on the side. Still much love for the harby. Been messing with the prof, but waiting on my drone skills to work up. <corrupt> |
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
714
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Posted - 2013.02.21 00:02:00 -
[36] - Quote
Well, I've been mostly trying to compare the Brutix, Drake, Harb, and the Cane.
They seem to lend themselves to straight across comparisons better due to similar bonuses and slot layouts.
Playing around with comparison fits, trying to keep as many things equal as possible.
-Start with a full rack of largest short range guns firing highest damage ammo. -3x Damage mods. -Fit a medium neut, MWD, Web, Point and DC II. -Full drone bay fit with largest drones possible, while still having 5 in space.
Then build a tank out of whatever space is left.
So, AC Cane firing Hail, Blaster Brutix firing Void, HAM Drake firing Kinetic, Harbinger with Conflag Pulses. All have comparable cap-life.
Essentially the Hurricane's advantage is the 'dual racial damage bonus' - but its damage profile isn't anything spectacular. Originally, that was fine: it used the extra 'space' for added utility. Well, that advantage is gone now. Everyone has it.
It trades its second bonus to get roughly the same DPS as any other BC. Then it fails in the tank category, where many other ships have a significant edge.
The Harb deals higher damage over a wide band of ranges, at the expense of damage type selection/cap use. Of course, it also has no reloading issues. Slightly stronger tank, slightly slower speed.
Brutix starts off looking average (except at short range) - but only if you try to buffer plate it. Factor in its large active tanking bonus (which doesn't penalize mobility) and it will easily close range with any plated or Caldari BC.
What is most glaring - I just don't see where the Drake suffers here. At no range is a Cane seriously threatening a Drake. A very slight damage edge at point blank range is snuffed out by the Drake's impressive passive tank. Things only get worse at longer ranges.
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Akara Ito
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
58
|
Posted - 2013.02.21 00:04:00 -
[37] - Quote
Makavelia wrote:Paikis wrote:Makavelia wrote:why should a player like me continue to play eve? You shouldn't, can I have your stuff? When you can be more original. Conformity at it's worst.
To be fair the answer should have been "because its fun" though since you couldnt figure this out yourself you kind of confirm what he said.
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Solomar Espersei
Quality Assurance The Marmite Collective
349
|
Posted - 2013.02.21 00:20:00 -
[38] - Quote
Wilkus, I don't know if I agree with you man. I think the Cane is going to be OK. The biggest problem I think is it seems a bit slow now and the big guns are tough to fit. You'll still see them in good numbers, it's just that you'll also see more of the other BCs. Anyways, this just in from one of the guys in Alliance which illustrates the Drake on Cane issue:
http://p0wnd.nl/kb/index.php/kill_detail/10586/
Right click and open in new tab.
I think people have always completely underestimated how good the ability to swap from EM to Thermal or Explosive actually is (kinetic is far weaker for ACs, though it's great for tracking) and that largely remains unchanged. This illustrates a larger point though, and one that seems to be overlooked right now. The drake's versatility got absolutely knee-capped by the nerf to HMLs imo. It's still probably OK for PVE (particularly Lv 3 missions and probably WH work), but I'd say the days of Drake Train by the bigger alliance are on the way out (likely to be replaced by the Boot and Boot Carriers). I'm betting Zanderia there was elated to find he was up against and HML drake and got the better of it pretty easily I would suspect. Quality Assurance
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Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
714
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Posted - 2013.02.21 01:03:00 -
[39] - Quote
Solomar Espersei wrote:Wilkus, I don't know if I agree with you man. I think the Cane is going to be OK. The biggest problem I think is it seems a bit slow now and the big guns are tough to fit. You'll still see them in good numbers, it's just that you'll also see more of the other BCs. Anyways, this just in from one of the guys in Alliance which illustrates the Drake on Cane issue: http://p0wnd.nl/kb/index.php/kill_detail/10586/Right click and open in new tab. I think people have always completely underestimated how good the ability to swap from EM to Thermal or Explosive actually is (kinetic is far weaker for ACs, though it's great for tracking) and that largely remains unchanged. This illustrates a larger point though, and one that seems to be overlooked right now. The drake's versatility got absolutely knee-capped by the nerf to HMLs imo. It's still probably OK for PVE (particularly Lv 3 missions and probably WH work), but I'd say the days of Drake Train by the bigger alliance are on the way out (likely to be replaced by the Boot and Boot Carriers). I'm betting Zanderia there was elated to find he was up against an HML drake and got the better of it pretty easily I would suspect.
I haven't really had a chance to do any hands on with the Cane since the patch. Have been in quite a few 1 vs 1s with Drakes pre-nerf and frequently they were near-run things, even vs younger pilots in ideal situations (being dropped at essentially 0 range by an Orca...)
And you are certainly seem to be in a position to do more PVP than I am right now....
That said, that KM shows what happens when a 'long-range' HML fit Drake boxes with a short-range fit A/C Cane. I'd have to compare some Arty Cane fits to HML Drakes for a better, apples to apples comparison. (And that comparison might be favorable, I didn't play around with it on the new EFT yet.)
However, fit that Drake with HAMs and I see a 'Cane that must retreat well beyond point range - or explode. Now, are HAMs practical in large fleet fights where long-range weapon systems tend to dominate? Probably not, but I'm thinking more along the lines of 1-1 or small group contexts.
Of course, speaking as a non-Caldari pilot. Never flown in a Drake, outside of EFT.
I don't doubt that we'll still see some 'Canes - as many pilots are locked into one racial skill set.
Essentially, the Cane boils down to a strictly average (though type-flexible) damage profile, no comparative advantage in 'utility', a smaller than average drone bay - and below average tank. Its slightly higher racial speed is mostly negated when pushed into a plate tank.
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Zarnak Wulf
In Exile.
1046
|
Posted - 2013.02.21 01:09:00 -
[40] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Zarnak Wulf wrote:The loss of a slot could be seen a mile away. That it was going to be a utility slot was also a safe bet. The slight loss if agility and EHP was also expected. The thing that does the Hurricane in though was the huge PG nerf. On most of the other BC you can now fit the largest tier guns and an impressive buffer tank.
Ferox - neutron rack, small neut, two LSE Harbinger- Heavy Pulses and 1600mm plate. Brutix - neutron rack, small cap booster, and MAAR or Ions, med cap booster, and MAAR + MAR2
None of the above require a fitting mod. You want 220mm, 1600 plate and a medium neut? 3% pg needed. Or how about a **** shield tank? (agility got nerfed so it isn't even that good anymore). You will need a small neut with your 425s. Taken on their own this is a nod that the Hurricane had it too good for too long. But every other BC got the equivalent of a grid buff- either via slot reduction and bonus change or directly. Please post your Binger with HPL + 1600 plate. -Liang Ed: The only way I see this without a fitting mod is if you forego your cap booster. Which is like. LOL.
Broke ass person's Harb:
High: Heavy Pulse II x 6 Empty Utility Mid: Experimental MWD Web Point Cap Recharger II Low: 1600mm Rolled Tungsten DC II EANM II x 2 HS II x 2 Rigs: Trimarks x 3
Valkeyrie II x 5 Warrior II x 5
It will run all mods for three minutes before shutting down. (Don't permarun your MWD.) For a 1% pg implant you can get a small cap booster and small neut. (Genolution Set FTW)
Liang, we are low sec dwellers and we have our clones pretty pimped out. 905 Surgical Strike, 805 medium energy damage, 705 motion prediction. The Harb screams at 890 DPS conflag or 820 MF. My Hybrid Clone can push the Ferox to 820 DPS with Void.
If I set up a Hurricane with 220s the same way I can push 834 DPS with Hail. With 'damage selection' that number becomes 753. Now figure in a much crappier damage envelope and 5-10k EHP less for the Hurricane. The only way the Cane stays competitive is with a medium neut which it can't fit without a further hit to tank or gank. |
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Atrocitas
3141
|
Posted - 2013.02.21 01:13:00 -
[41] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote: Cap Recharger II It will run all mods for three minutes before shutting down. (Don't permarun your MWD.)
No. Just, no. No. The fit's fine, but just don't claim it doesn't fit without a fitting mod or implants because... just no.
Quote: If I set up a Hurricane with 220s the same way I can push 834 DPS with Hail. With 'damage selection' that number becomes 753. Now figure in a much crappier damage envelope and 5-10k EHP less for the Hurricane. The only way the Cane stays competitive is with a medium Neut .
Are you armor fitting that Cane or something?
-Liang
Ed: Also, the old nano fit of the ages didn't really change, except that you now only have 1 med neut instead of two. Still even has 50k EHP. Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Zarnak Wulf
In Exile.
1046
|
Posted - 2013.02.21 01:37:00 -
[42] - Quote
Armor cane is a yes. The nano cane is too much of a glass cannon in my eyes. That play style is fine but I'd go the AC Tornado Route instead as a personal choice.
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Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
714
|
Posted - 2013.02.21 01:52:00 -
[43] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote:Armor cane is a yes. The nano cane is too much of a glass cannon in my eyes. That play style is fine but I'd go the AC Tornado Route instead as a personal choice.
Looking at the numbers between Arty Shield Canes and HML Drakes, its still a pretty ugly picture, just as with a HAM vs AC comparison.
Canes are significantly faster, but seem outclassed in the 'tank' AND 'spank' categories. Especially 'tank', by a wide margin.
Result, Cane runs - or cane dies horribly if in scram range.
Seems like the Cane was pretty well neutered, relative to other BCs, quite possibly over-neutered.
I don't understand why the Drake got the kid-gloves treatment on the second balance pass though....
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Atrocitas
3141
|
Posted - 2013.02.21 02:30:00 -
[44] - Quote
Herr Wilkus wrote: Looking at the numbers between Arty Shield Canes and HML Drakes, its still a pretty ugly picture, just as with a HAM vs AC comparison.
Canes are significantly faster, but seem outclassed in the 'tank' AND 'spank' categories. Especially 'tank', by a wide margin.
Result, Cane runs - or cane dies horribly if in scram range.
Seems like the Cane was pretty well neutered, relative to other BCs, quite possibly over-neutered.
I don't understand why the Drake got the kid-gloves treatment on the second balance pass though....
So once you selectively remove all the advantages of the Hurricane, you are left with only the advantages of the Drake. Also: the Drake is good at tank and spank. Welcome to 2007.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Diesel47
Bad Men Ltd.
492
|
Posted - 2013.02.21 04:05:00 -
[45] - Quote
Ham drake out DPSes nano AC hurricane.
Lol. |
Kaal Redrum
The Tuskers
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.21 04:18:00 -
[46] - Quote
I know youre trying to make a point Liang - but what is it? Usually youre quite articulate, so why don't you elaborate on where you think the Cane 'still shines'.
Quote:So once you selectively remove all the advantages of the Hurricane, you are left with only the advantages of the Drake
What are you going to do with the Cane's speed advantage? Its like the Firetail's speed advantage - what do you do with it, except run when rubber meets the road?
As I see it:
- Cane's just cant brawl anymore, so armor canes will find it hard to survive out there. Not just other Brawl BCs, but many Brawl Cruisers, which it would previously shut down and pwn 1 v/s X, cant be managed anymore. [Not enough tank, Not enough 'relative' gank with faction ammo, Not enough Neut power to shut blaster/laser boats down]
- As a AC Kiter, its projection is worse than the Binger and HAM (!) Drake. Sure its faster, but that only helps it run away, rather than win a fight, since its gank (between 20-30k) and tank is worse than other BCs
- Arty Cane's, for their 3-4k volleys have a small niche in a nano-shield fleet doctrine, or station/gate camping nububus.
What am I missing?
Question is 'relative', sure, on its own, as a Combat BC, its still 'viable'. |
Diesel47
Bad Men Ltd.
492
|
Posted - 2013.02.21 04:34:00 -
[47] - Quote
Kaal Redrum wrote:I know youre trying to make a point Liang - but what is it? Usually youre quite articulate, so why don't you elaborate on where you think the Cane 'still shines'. Quote:So once you selectively remove all the advantages of the Hurricane, you are left with only the advantages of the Drake What are you going to do with the Cane's speed advantage? Its like the Firetail's speed advantage - what do you do with it, except run when rubber meets the road? As I see it: - Cane's just cant brawl anymore, so armor canes will find it hard to survive out there. Not just other Brawl BCs, but many Brawl Cruisers, which it would previously shut down and pwn 1 v/s X, cant be managed anymore. [Not enough tank, Not enough 'relative' gank with faction ammo, Not enough Neut power to shut blaster/laser boats down] - As a AC Kiter, its projection is worse than the Binger and HAM (!) Drake. Sure its faster, but that only helps it run away, rather than win a fight, since its gank (between 20-30k) and tank is worse than other BCs - Arty Cane's, for their 3-4k volleys have a small niche in a nano-shield fleet doctrine, or station/gate camping nububus. What am I missing? Question is 'relative', sure, on its own, as a Combat BC, its still 'viable'.
Liangs just a troll.
Moving on.
Seems like arty cane is the only thing worth flying now.. but they nerfed that too. |
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
716
|
Posted - 2013.02.21 10:53:00 -
[48] - Quote
Yeah, I noticed your HAM Drake thread, diesel.
While you may have been overstating its capabilities with the 16.5km range Rage Ammo a bit....
The Drake apologists KNOW it came out of this round of 'nerfs' smelling like a rose. "Oh its only good on paper, but it really just sucks."
I can't even make the Hurricane look good 'on paper', head to head. Unless your goal is to run away or just get killed.
Unless you get the 'HML long-range fit vs AC short-range fit' mismatch - at no point can a Hurricane even threaten a Drake.
Greater mobility is only useful for running away, because there is no 'ideal range' or sweet spot.
The only place it can out-damage a Drake is point blank range, but the slight damage edge doesn't come anywhere near what is necessary to break that passive tank. The further away you move, the worse it gets. Outside of Javelin Range you aren't taking damage, but you also aren't pointing him - nor are you breaking his tank.
Earlier versions of the 'Cane stood a chance against the Drake - mainly because of dual Neuts giving you the ability to shutting down Hardeners and keep them off. Good luck doing that now, before your own sub-standard tank collapses.
Its no surprise that the Hurricane was weakened - or even that they overnerfed it a bit. CCP likes to overcompensate.
But I can't understand why the still-far-more-popular Drake completely evaded the nerf-gun on this pass, leaving it standing atop the heap. |
Dav Varan
Caltech Shipyards
3
|
Posted - 2013.02.21 12:16:00 -
[49] - Quote
Herr Wilkus wrote:Yeah, I noticed your HAM Drake thread, diesel.
While you may have been overstating its capabilities with the 16.5km range Rage Ammo a bit....
The Drake apologists KNOW it came out of this round of 'nerfs' smelling like a rose. "Oh its only good on paper, but it really just sucks."
I can't even make the Hurricane look good 'on paper', head to head. Unless your goal is to run away or just get killed.
Unless you get the 'HML long-range fit vs AC short-range fit' mismatch - at no point can a Hurricane even threaten a Drake.
Greater mobility is only useful for running away, because there is no 'ideal range' or sweet spot.
The only place it can out-damage a Drake is point blank range, but the slight damage edge doesn't come anywhere near what is necessary to break that passive tank. The further away you move, the worse it gets. Outside of Javelin Range you aren't taking damage, but you also aren't pointing him - nor are you breaking his tank.
Earlier versions of the 'Cane stood a chance against the Drake - mainly because of dual Neuts giving you the ability to shutting down Hardeners and keep them off. Good luck doing that now, before your own sub-standard tank collapses.
Its no surprise that the Hurricane was weakened - or even that they overnerfed it a bit. CCP likes to overcompensate.
But I can't understand why the still-far-more-popular Drake completely evaded the nerf-gun on this pass, leaving it standing atop the heap.
Canes paper targets arnt drakes or other bs/bc. Its not neccesarrily a fleet ship in the same way a drake is not a solo ship.
Strengths of the cane are the same as its always been, hit and run. Hit targets you can kill , run from those you can't
There are plenty of frigs/cruisers and bad fits out there for your cane to ****.
The drake has been nerfed , its lost 500 base shield and has far less flexible damage selection than before. In a fleet kin only at 10% per level is fine.
Solo that kin only damage is going to be a big problem.
So drake is nerfed harder as a solo ship and less as a fleet ship. Canes nerf lowered it overall , but it is still one of the go to BC for solo / sg roaming because of its great get out of dodge.
Personally I would have loved a more mobile drake with lower tank and better damage selection to push it towards solo and away from fleet where it seems op atm.
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Atrocitas
3147
|
Posted - 2013.02.21 18:37:00 -
[50] - Quote
Kaal Redrum wrote:What am I missing?
A few of the many things that you're missing: - The ability to run when the rubber needs to meet the road. Yes, that's actually important. - The ability to run away and kill people who over extend (like that Brutix or Thorax that got 50km in front of all the Drakes) - The ability to select your damage type - Guns, and all the magnificent advantages that brings - The ability to down size your weapons
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Atrocitas
3147
|
Posted - 2013.02.21 18:46:00 -
[51] - Quote
Herr Wilkus wrote: I can't even make the Hurricane look good 'on paper', head to head. Unless your goal is to run away or just get killed.
It should not be a surprise that the Hurricane is not as good of a brawler as the Drake. The Hurricane's strengths lie elsewhere and demanding that it be equally good at all possible things is simply ludicrous.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
716
|
Posted - 2013.02.21 20:00:00 -
[52] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Herr Wilkus wrote: I can't even make the Hurricane look good 'on paper', head to head. Unless your goal is to run away or just get killed.
It should not be a surprise that the Hurricane is not as good of a brawler as the Drake. The Hurricane's strengths lie elsewhere and demanding that it be equally good at all possible things is simply ludicrous. -Liang
Here's the deal - there are plenty of scenarios where a Hurricane comes out on top vs a Harb or a Brutix. (the closest cross-racial BC approximation)
But I'm not convinced the Drake isn't still way out of their league. And some of these shameless Drake pilots crying croc tears about how bad they got nerfed are pissing me off.
Lets see someone post a fit:
A Tier 1 or Tier 2 BC - that can destroy a HAM Drake 1 on 1. (and I'm not saying it doesn't exist - but I've not found it yet.)
One stipulation - WITHOUT artificially metagaming your tank against Kinetic. Stick to plugging obvious holes and EANM/Invulns. You could be facing anyone, after all.....
Oh yes, and I mean 'destroy' a HAM Drake. Peppering it from 50km out outside of HAM range does not a KM make.
There are seven other BC's (not including Tier 3's). I've looks primarily at the Harb, Brutix, Cane so far.....
Originally I thought the Brutix could do it, but it appears I was wrong. Even slugging away at point blank range with VOID - the Brutix appears to go down in flames - plated OR active tanked - long before the Drake. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Atrocitas
3149
|
Posted - 2013.02.21 20:10:00 -
[53] - Quote
Herr Wilkus wrote: But I'm not convinced the Drake isn't still way out of their league. And some of these shameless Drake pilots crying croc tears about how bad they got nerfed are pissing me off.
And I'd be glad to tell them how ******** they are too. And I have done so.
Quote: Lets see someone post a fit:
A Tier 1 or Tier 2 BC - that can destroy a HAM Drake 1 on 1. (and I'm not saying it doesn't exist - but I've not found it yet.)
One stipulation - WITHOUT artificially metagaming your tank against Kinetic. Stick to plugging obvious holes and EANM/Invulns. You could be facing anyone, after all.....
Oh yes, and I mean 'destroy' a HAM Drake. Peppering it from 50km out outside of HAM range does not a KM make.
There are seven other BC's (not including Tier 3's). I've looks primarily at the Harb, Brutix, Cane so far.....
Originally I thought the Brutix could do it, but it appears I was wrong. Even slugging away at point blank range with VOID - the Brutix appears to go down in flames - plated OR active tanked - long before the Drake.
I'd look at the Cyclone and Binger to start the conversation. The Prophecy and Myrm might also be fairly good choices.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
606
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Posted - 2013.02.21 20:47:00 -
[54] - Quote
Herr Wilkus wrote:Oh yes, and I mean 'destroy' a HAM Drake. Peppering it from 50km out outside of HAM range does not a KM make.
T2 Disruptor = 24km, at 20 that HAM drake does about 0 dps to your cane or has to switch to long range ammo for as much dps cane can do.
If your cane can't kill it, just move along and fight another day. It's exactly what almost all other BC's are doing already for years. *removed inappropriate ASCII art signature* - CCP Eterne |
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
716
|
Posted - 2013.02.21 21:16:00 -
[55] - Quote
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:Herr Wilkus wrote:Oh yes, and I mean 'destroy' a HAM Drake. Peppering it from 50km out outside of HAM range does not a KM make. T2 Disruptor = 24km, at 20 that HAM drake does about 0 dps to your cane or has to switch to long range ammo for as much dps cane can do. If your cane can't kill it, just move along and fight another day. It's exactly what almost all other BC's are doing already for years.
BZZZZ. Wrong. Typical HAM Drake: 80K EHP, with 150 EHP passive regenerated/sec. vs Weakest Resist, EMP: 68K EHP, with 110 passive regen.
Rage = 720 DPS at 17km Faction = 630 DPS at 20km Javs = 520 DPS at 30km
Typical Plated 425 A/C Cane: 48K EHP vs Kinetic, buffer, negligible passive regen.
T2 Hail = 800 DPS at 0km, 400 DPS at 10 km, **** all at 20km T2 Barrage = 600 DPS at 0km, 300 DPS at 20km T2 EMP = 720 DPS at 0km, 350-400 at 10KM, and **** all at 20km.
Arty Shield Canes fare even worse - and that is before we factor in missed shots due to tracking issues. Best Round: RF EMP, about 400 DPS at 20km, assuming perfect tracking. Outside of 30km, you avoid all HAM damage - but the Drake can sustain your fire for 15 minutes, then simply warp off.
If you think ANY Hurricane fit will top a HAM Drake, you are simply barking up the wrong tree.
The question is: can ANY Tier 1 or 2 BC, not artificially stacked up on Kinetic resists, kill a HAM Drake? |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Atrocitas
3150
|
Posted - 2013.02.21 21:32:00 -
[56] - Quote
Herr Wilkus wrote: BZZZZ. Wrong. Typical HAM Drake: 80K EHP, with 150 EHP passive regenerated/sec. vs Weakest Resist, EMP: 68K EHP, with 110 passive regen.
Rage = 720 DPS at 17km Faction = 630 DPS at 20km Javs = 520 DPS at 30km
Typical Plated 425 A/C Cane: 48K EHP vs Kinetic, buffer, negligible passive regen.
T2 Hail = 800 DPS at 0km, 400 DPS at 10 km, **** all at 20km T2 Barrage = 600 DPS at 0km, 300 DPS at 20km T2 EMP = 720 DPS at 0km, 350-400 at 10KM, and **** all at 20km.
Arty Shield Canes fare even worse - and that is before we factor in missed shots due to tracking issues. Best Round: RF EMP, about 400 DPS at 20km, assuming perfect tracking. Outside of 30km, you avoid all HAM damage - but the Drake can sustain your fire for 15 minutes, then simply warp off.
If you think ANY Hurricane fit will top a HAM Drake, you are simply barking up the wrong tree.
A few comments: - The 150/110 EHP passive recharge is at peak only. It's not even really noticeable until 40% shields. - Rage doesn't go to 17km if both parties are moving. Both parties will be moving. Nor does faction go to 20km or Javs go to 30km. This is one of those "gotchas". - I think he was talking about the kind of Hurricane that people actually fly, instead of the kind that people are QQing about and never actually flew. EG, he was talking about a shield cane. - The Armor Cane has never been a good choice for taking against a Drake. Why you would have expected this to change is simply beyond me. - You ignored suggestions of other ships (Shield cane, Cyclone, Myrm, Prophecy, Harbinger, etc).
Quote:The question is: can ANY Tier 1 or 2 BC, not artificially stacked up on Kinetic resists, kill a HAM Drake?
They can. You're just being stupid.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Jerick Ludhowe
Crimson HellHounds Drunk3n H00ligans
414
|
Posted - 2013.02.21 21:47:00 -
[57] - Quote
As far as the harbie goes... this fits just fine with a 1% implant
lows: 1600mm rolled tungsten eanmII adaptive nano II dcu II 2x Heat sink II
Mediums: Disruptor t2 web t2 Small Cap Booster II (navy 400s) experimental 10mn mwd
Highs: 6x Heavy Pulse II small nuet II
Rigs: 3x Medium trimarks
68760 ehp, 708 Dps with faction multi, 597 Dps with scorch.
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Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
716
|
Posted - 2013.02.21 21:57:00 -
[58] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:A few comments: - The 150/110 EHP passive recharge is at peak only. It's not even really noticeable until 40% shields. - Rage doesn't go to 17km if both parties are moving. Both parties will be moving. Nor does faction go to 20km or Javs go to 30km. This is one of those "gotchas". - I think he was talking about the kind of Hurricane that people actually fly, instead of the kind that people are QQing about and never actually flew. EG, he was talking about a shield cane. - The Armor Cane has never been a good choice for taking against a Drake. Why you would have expected this to change is simply beyond me. - You ignored suggestions of other ships (Shield cane, Cyclone, Myrm, Prophecy, Harbinger, etc). Quote:The question is: can ANY Tier 1 or 2 BC, not artificially stacked up on Kinetic resists, kill a HAM Drake? They can. You're just being stupid. -Liang
Fair points on the passive regen, I realize it disappears once the tank is broken. These are estimations to see if these ships are even in the same league. To partially compensate for this I left out 'Invulns Overheated' numbers, even though Hardeners function while overheated much longer than opposing Weapon mods - and significantly boost the tank at that critical period.
I'm also being a bit lazy about drone damage, lumping it in with the turret Damage, as its a minor player for these particular BCs. Haven't gotten into the Myrm or the Prophecy yet.
True, if both parties are moving, the missile range could be less than 30km. Equally, the range could also be GREATER than 30km. It simply depends on who is kiting who. Drake running down a slower Harbi will have a slightly shorter range. A Drake running from a faster Brutix or Cane will have longer effective range.
I didn't 'ignore' other suggestions - or close off the possibility of others - I just haven't had time to EFT them myself yet.
I did ask for a fitting from...anyone else...but we've had no takers, just vague suggestions and assertions from the peanut gallery.
So far, the Harbinger isn't looking promising, though.
Also, I considered an Arty Shield Cane - but not an A/C Shield cane....yet. But Armor A/C vs HAM comparisons were so laughably lopsided, I highly doubt it will fare much better. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Atrocitas
3150
|
Posted - 2013.02.21 22:17:00 -
[59] - Quote
Ok, well I'm not sure what possessed you to start examining the armor cane considering nobody actually ever flew it. But hey, whatever floats your boat - I'm glad you finally caught up to 2007 fitting standards. After a bit more EFT warrioring you might catch up to 2009 when everyone decided that the shield cane was a great idea.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
716
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Posted - 2013.02.21 22:32:00 -
[60] - Quote
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:As far as the harbie goes... this fits just fine with a 1% implant
Nice Harbi. Appreciate you posting a fit. Problem: it will not kill a Typical T2 HAM Drake.
If you are boxing at Imperial Multi ranges - (dealing 700 DPS), a typical Drake will be skullfking you with Rage Scourge Ammo for 720 DPS, and you are likely dead - as you aren't escaping the Drake. Hell, go Conflag. Even ignoring the very significant passive regeneration of the Drake, you lose handily.
Now 20-30KM, at Scorch/extreme point ranges you are dishing out 600 DPS. Drake is firing back Scourge Javelins, and dealing 520 DPS or so.
Your EM/Therm damage is well suited to shooting Drakes, and the Drake has 70K EHP (ignoring overheating) to your 68K EHP. The Drake's passive regen makes it close, wiping out 115 DPS/sec at peak recharge rates. I'm inclined to think the Drake comes out on top here.
But even if we give the Harbi the benefit of the doubt - the Drake is significantly faster than your Plated Harbi.
It proceeds close distance into 'the bone zone', swaps to higher damage missiles and things get sad for you.
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Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
716
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Posted - 2013.02.21 23:20:00 -
[61] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Ok, well I'm not sure what possessed you to start examining the armor cane considering nobody actually ever flew it. But hey, whatever floats your boat - I'm glad you finally caught up to 2007 fitting standards. After a bit more EFT warrioring you might catch up to 2009 when everyone decided that the shield cane was a great idea.
-Liang
You could stop playing the smart-ass and just post a fit. So far, you've merely demonstrated that you are good at making contrary, unsupported assertions.
A/C Armor Canes are what I used to crack PVE Drakes after an Orca swap. These Pre-Nerf HML Drakes were generally without tackle, but sported heftier tanks. Player SP varied, but the dual neuts are what usually tilted the fight ever so slightly towards the Cane.
If I wanted a Shield tanker, I generally went Burst Sleip instead of Cane.
Shield Canes are nice and fast, great for running away. Useless for dictating the range of an engagement, however, because there is no 'proper range'.
-You get boned at 0KM firing EMP, (Hail is LOL). Blown off the planet by Rage Scourge in 80 seconds. -You get boned at 10KM firing EMP vs CN Scourge or Scourge Rage, doesn't matter. Charitably trading equal damage, but in much weaker tank. -You get boned at 20KM firing Explosive Barrage into stupid high resists, or 1x Fallout EMP at 50% output.
At range, Arty anes could move beyond HAM (or even HML range) and snipe away - but never score a kill. At best, merely drive the Drake off after a lengthy bombardment. (12-15 minutes with Tremor). On the other hand, if the HAM/HML Drake lands on the Arty Cane, its all over, and over quickly. |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
245
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Posted - 2013.02.21 23:24:00 -
[62] - Quote
Herr Wilkus wrote:Nice Harbi. Appreciate you posting a fit. Problem: it will not kill a Typical T2 HAM Drake.
If you are boxing at Imperial Multi ranges - (dealing 700 DPS), a typical Drake will be skullfking you with Rage Scourge Ammo for 720 DPS, and you are likely dead - as you aren't escaping the Drake. Hell, go Conflag. Even ignoring the very significant passive regeneration of the Drake, you lose handily.
Now 20-30KM, at Scorch/extreme point ranges you are dishing out 600 DPS. Drake is firing back Scourge Javelins, and dealing 520 DPS or so.
Your EM/Therm damage is well suited to shooting Drakes, and the Drake has 70K EHP (ignoring overheating) to your 68K EHP. The Drake's passive regen makes it close, wiping out 115 DPS/sec at peak recharge rates. I'm inclined to think the Drake comes out on top here.
But even if we give the Harbi the benefit of the doubt - the Drake is significantly faster than your Plated Harbi.
It proceeds close distance into 'the bone zone', swaps to higher damage missiles and things get sad for you.
You forgot the drones. Harbinger's drone bay dig the gap betwen the two. |
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
716
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Posted - 2013.02.21 23:32:00 -
[63] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:Herr Wilkus wrote:Nice Harbi. Appreciate you posting a fit. Problem: it will not kill a Typical T2 HAM Drake.
If you are boxing at Imperial Multi ranges - (dealing 700 DPS), a typical Drake will be skullfking you with Rage Scourge Ammo for 720 DPS, and you are likely dead - as you aren't escaping the Drake. Hell, go Conflag. Even ignoring the very significant passive regeneration of the Drake, you lose handily.
Now 20-30KM, at Scorch/extreme point ranges you are dishing out 600 DPS. Drake is firing back Scourge Javelins, and dealing 520 DPS or so.
Your EM/Therm damage is well suited to shooting Drakes, and the Drake has 70K EHP (ignoring overheating) to your 68K EHP. The Drake's passive regen makes it close, wiping out 115 DPS/sec at peak recharge rates. I'm inclined to think the Drake comes out on top here.
But even if we give the Harbi the benefit of the doubt - the Drake is significantly faster than your Plated Harbi.
It proceeds close distance into 'the bone zone', swaps to higher damage missiles and things get sad for you.
You forgot the drones. Harbinger's drone bay dig the gap betwen the two.
Nope. I double checked. 5x Hobs II in the Drake and 5x Hammerheads II in the Harb. As I stated earlier, I just lumped drone damage in with turret damage. Not 100% accurate when considering falloff, combat range, and time to travel, but it serves as an abstraction. For all of these BC's however, drone damage is just supplemental damage. Different case for the Myrm/Prophecy. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Atrocitas
3155
|
Posted - 2013.02.22 06:03:00 -
[64] - Quote
Hmmm. It looks like the Cyclone is pretty consistently able to do it in basically any configuration. It makes the trade off of being much more vulnerable to high DPS vs focus fire though. Here's one fit that can do it, after I deliberately stacked the comparison in favor of the Drake:
[Cyclone, XL Active Tank] Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Damage Control II Co-Processor II
Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster, Navy Cap Booster 400 Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I Warp Disruptor II
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Heavy Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Heavy Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Heavy Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Heavy Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Heavy Assault Missile Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I Medium Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I
Hammerhead II x5
Cyclone EHP towards Drake: 37673 + 1082 * (4.25*9) = 79059 + Recharge Drake's EHP towards Cyclone: 65362 + Recharge
Drake DPS: 818/60 sec + 707 Cyclone DPS: 705/60 sec + 623
Drake TTL = 97 sec Cyclone TTL = 102 sec
-Liang
Ed: Stacking a second invuln as you'd tend to do on an ASB fit makes the comparison kinda laughable. Running dual ASB does as well. EM/Thm/Kin layout on your rigs does as well. Anyway. You get the picture. The Cyclone can brawl down the Drake. Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Atrocitas
3155
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Posted - 2013.02.22 06:18:00 -
[65] - Quote
A similar Ion Ferox fit: 50036 + 1318*(4.25*9) = 100449 Kin EHP. Very similar damage output to the Drake, less range. Drake has 93k EHP towards the Ferox. Seems to me that if the fight starts within ~15-20km the Ferox has it in the bag.
-Liang
Ed: Buffer Ferox starts with 103k EHP and significantly more DPS. Pretty sure it has it too. Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Atrocitas
3155
|
Posted - 2013.02.22 06:51:00 -
[66] - Quote
Let us examine the case of the dual rep Brutix vs the Drake. The Brutix begins the fight with 40520 EHP. It takes the Drake 10 seconds to go through the Brutix's armor, leaving it with 32,187 EHP. For the next 50 seconds, the Drake "can" overheat its launchers and will deal 3840 EHP worth of EHP. This leaves the Brutix with 28,347 EHP when the Drake can no longer overheat.
If the Brutix reloads the AAR, it wills till tank 287 DPS until the AAR comes back up. That means the Drake effectively deals 707-287 = 420 DPS for 60 seconds. This leaves the Brutix with 3147 EHP (in hull) when the AAR finishes reloading, and the AAR will not complete its cycle before the Brutix dies. The end, after 60+60+4 = 124 seconds.
If the Brutix does not reload the AAR, it will tank 448 DPS for another 70 seconds and then drop down to 360 DPS tanked. This means the Drake will deal 70 seconds of 707-448=259 DPS for 70 seconds and then 347 DPS from then on. So how long does the Brutix hold out? Well, I'm glad you asked. 259 DPS * 70 sec = 18130 damage, leaving the Brutix edging into hull between rep cycles. It's still got ~10217 EHP left though, and it'll take another 30 seconds to go down (this will be less because the Drake will deal 5656 damage between rep cycles).
SO, what's all that mean in the end? Has the Brutix just been sitting there eating Rage HAM for 160 seconds? Well, no. Actually it dished out 65208 damage in the first 78 seconds of the fight, leaving the Drake with 27974 EHP + leaving the Drake at about 15-20% shields (we'll assume Really Great Things about its recharge rate, just to be "fair"). It'll take another 40 or so seconds to die somewhere between T115 and T120 seconds, depending on how well recharge did.
So where was the Brutix at T=120 seconds? It's at low armor. That means the Brutix has forty seconds to catch up to the Drake and start applying DPS.
Don't get me wrong - the Drake is still super strong. But, it's not invincible like is being presented here.
Here's the Brutix fit, for reference:
[Brutix, Dual Rep] Medium Ancillary Armor Repairer Medium Armor Repairer II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Damage Control II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 800 Warp Disruptor II Stasis Webifier II
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M
Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I Medium Nanobot Accelerator I
Hammerhead II x5
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Diesel47
Bad Men Ltd.
493
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Posted - 2013.02.22 09:15:00 -
[67] - Quote
Herr Wilkus wrote:Yeah, I noticed your HAM Drake thread, diesel.
While you may have been overstating its capabilities with the 16.5km range Rage Ammo a bit....
The Drake apologists KNOW it came out of this round of 'nerfs' smelling like a rose. "Oh its only good on paper, but it really just sucks."
I can't even make the Hurricane look good 'on paper', head to head. Unless your goal is to run away or just get killed.
Unless you get the 'HML long-range fit vs AC short-range fit' mismatch - at no point can a Hurricane even threaten a Drake.
Greater mobility is only useful for running away, because there is no 'ideal range' or sweet spot.
The only place it can out-damage a Drake is point blank range, but the slight damage edge doesn't come anywhere near what is necessary to break that passive tank. The further away you move, the worse it gets. Outside of Javelin Range you aren't taking damage, but you also aren't pointing him - nor are you breaking his tank.
Earlier versions of the 'Cane stood a chance against the Drake - mainly because of dual Neuts giving you the ability to shutting down Hardeners and keep them off. Good luck doing that now, before your own sub-standard tank collapses.
Its no surprise that the Hurricane was weakened - or even that they overnerfed it a bit. CCP likes to overcompensate.
But I can't understand why the still-far-more-popular Drake completely evaded the nerf-gun on this pass, leaving it standing atop the heap.
Well, I think its a huge deal that the drake can do brawler level DPS at 16km while the other ships are stuck at <10kms, most blaster boats at <5kms.
And ontop of that have a battleship tank with scram/disrupt and web.
Experienced drake pilots will always fly away from their targets which increases their range to something like +20km, while also lowering the enemy brawlers incoming DPS.
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Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
723
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Posted - 2013.02.22 11:02:00 -
[68] - Quote
Responded to Liang on the other thread, as this thread was primarily directed at the Hurricane's shortcomings and evolved into Drake discussion.....but after getting some sleep, looking at active tanked Cyclones and Feroxes.
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Jerick Ludhowe
Crimson HellHounds Drunk3n H00ligans
414
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Posted - 2013.02.22 13:29:00 -
[69] - Quote
Resistance bonus needs to be nerfed from 5% to 4% per level. This simple change (while not significant) will have a rather positive effect on allot of the balance issues heavily discussed in the past 5-6 months. |
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
723
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Posted - 2013.02.22 13:37:00 -
[70] - Quote
Kind of working out what the XL ASB Cyclone does vs your typical LSE II Drake.
Still looks like the Drake comes out on top - unless I have my numbers wrong.
The Booster can counteract slightly more than the incoming DPS for 45 seconds, and knocks 18K EHP off the Drake, in turn. While spending 60 seconds reloading its ASB, the 36K EHP Cyclone is torn a new ******* - and still doesn't put the Drake into Armor.
Of course, it can run - but then, why fight at all? |
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Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
245
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Posted - 2013.02.22 14:44:00 -
[71] - Quote
Breaking news : minmatar will now have to pick their fights !
Winmatar may haven't been exagerated after all... |
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
723
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Posted - 2013.02.22 16:02:00 -
[72] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:Breaking news : minmatar will now have to pick their fights !
Winmatar may haven't been exagerated after all...
Don't be a prat.
As my own experience in Canes tended to often involve scraps with Drakes, I understood that 1v1 fights between the Canes and Drakes were often very close and swung by a thin margin. It was close enough that the difference between 'staggering' your twin neuts or not often made the difference in the fight. (By shutting down Invulns more often....) SP is another variable that could not be accounted for, in practice.
But it was still a bit of a 'gimmick' - because everyone in a Cane understood that the raw stats of the Drake in terms of EHP and damage FAR outstripped the Cane's pre-buff capabilities. Without that gimmick, you are left with a completely hopeless match up.
Hurricane vs most other BCs - now there are winning scenarios and losing scenarios. Thats fine. But against the Drake you are faced with just losing scenarios. (and this is a problem with the Drake - it spanks most other BCs handily, and I haven't even tried cramming an L-ASB onto a Drake yet, just for kicks.)
I think today you have a situation where the Drake is still sitting well above the other BCs, and this could easily have been predicted by CCP - but they did nothing. If anything, HAM Drake got a buff with the turret changes. |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
246
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Posted - 2013.02.22 16:24:00 -
[73] - Quote
Fit armor tank with RAH on your Hurricane et voil+á. |
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
538
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Posted - 2013.02.22 16:30:00 -
[74] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:Fit armor tank with RAH on your Hurricane et voil+á.
Indeed.
Honestly, Wilkus, so many ideas have been given to you on a plate here, and you still seem intent on not learning anything and worse, you continue to attempt to distill BC balance to this absurdly narrow case of single Drake vs. single Hurricane.
It's silly to expect one of the most mobile BCs to outbrawl one of the slowest anyway. Save your tears for the Harbinger. |
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
723
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Posted - 2013.02.22 17:15:00 -
[75] - Quote
Gypsio III wrote:Bouh Revetoile wrote:Fit armor tank with RAH on your Hurricane et voil+á. Indeed. Honestly, Wilkus, so many ideas have been given to you on a plate here, and you still seem intent on not learning anything and worse, you continue to attempt to distill BC balance to this absurdly narrow case of single Drake vs. single Hurricane. It's silly to expect one of the most mobile BCs to outbrawl one of the slowest anyway. Save your tears for the Harbinger.
Hey, Gypsio, just keep trolling like a shithead. It suits you. While I've been splitting posts between two different threads, I've been actively seeking out input and new ideas. I've yet to spend a lot of time on EFT with some of the newer mods that have come out recently, including RAH.
And you are so intent on being a smartass, you likely don't even know if the RAH tilts the balance in favor of the Cane or not. But I'm willing to give it a try.
Trying to model a mod that slowly shifts Resistances over time isn't trivial. And the RAH is not seeing 'pure' Kinetic, unless Drake is using Caldari Drones. So assuming the RAH ramps up to 60% vs Kinetic in 40 seconds is fail. Also, is the RAH 'good enough' to be considered 'general use' or is it simply 'metagaming' a fit to stop a Drake? I don't know, but I've yet to see lots of complaints about RAH, in the same vein as ASB.
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Naomi Knight
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
227
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Posted - 2013.02.22 17:19:00 -
[76] - Quote
matar qq |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Atrocitas
3160
|
Posted - 2013.02.22 18:01:00 -
[77] - Quote
Herr Wilkus wrote: And the RAH is not seeing 'pure' Kinetic, unless Drake is using Caldari Drones. So assuming the RAH ramps up to 60% vs Kinetic in 40 seconds is fail. Also, is the RAH 'good enough' to be considered 'general use' or is it simply 'metagaming' a fit to stop a Drake? I don't know, but I've yet to see lots of complaints about RAH, in the same vein as ASB.
I thought your use case for the Cane was to orca swap into it? Seems like you are perfectly fine with meta gaming the Drake pilots anyway.
/shrug
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
723
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Posted - 2013.02.22 18:36:00 -
[78] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Herr Wilkus wrote: And the RAH is not seeing 'pure' Kinetic, unless Drake is using Caldari Drones. So assuming the RAH ramps up to 60% vs Kinetic in 40 seconds is fail. Also, is the RAH 'good enough' to be considered 'general use' or is it simply 'metagaming' a fit to stop a Drake? I don't know, but I've yet to see lots of complaints about RAH, in the same vein as ASB.
I thought your use case for the Cane was to orca swap into it? Seems like you are perfectly fine with meta gaming the Drake pilots anyway. /shrug -Liang
Armor Cane was typically used out of Orcas - but the Cane fits were not 'metagamed' against Drakes in particular. They were more or less just your typical 1600MM Plate, 220MM, Dual Neut canes. So your assertion, Liang, is inaccurate. /shrug
In fact, some of us refused to even bother with Drakes -as they tended be fairly unimpressive KMs. A 25M ISK Drake (cost at the time) was just KB filler when everyone was after the blingy CNRs, Nighthawks and Marauders.
Still, you tended to run into a lot of Drakes -so if you were bored and not choosy, you ended up with a lot of solo fights with them. Of course, we are talking about mission runners here.
Most of these Drakes tended to use extra slots for tanking (-no tackle) - but also frequently had a SP deficit (most carebears move up from Drakes to CNRs) - and many were just flat out fail fits.
Still - some of those fights were tough with just an Armor Cane - not all ended in a clean solo kill, but require holding them until outside RR assistance arrived to help finish the job - especially if it was an older PVE'r who 'just likes Drakes'. And Rattlesnakes were even tougher. And this was pre-Cane nerf, pre-HML nerf.
Eventually I just figured 'hell with it' and put Burst-tank AC Sleips in all my Speed Orcas - as they simply cut through Drakes like butter and could easily handle Rattlesnakes as well.
Of course, after 3 separate patches, the Orca has more or less finally been killed off for LVL 4 mission runner baiting, so I don't forsee having too many of these controlled, nonconsensual 1 vs 1 fights in the future. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Atrocitas
3160
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Posted - 2013.02.22 19:18:00 -
[79] - Quote
If you're after a thrill, the Purifier makes a great Drake/Raven/CNR (missile ship with an EM hole) Killer.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Umega
Solis Mensa
133
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Posted - 2013.02.23 04:01:00 -
[80] - Quote
Armor cane best cane. No, shield-kite cane best. No, dual-prop TD cane is best cane. No, shield brawler with 5 gyro cane best.
Drakes suck. Only PvE players use drakes.. then something changed, without a damn thing happening to the drake or it's mods/weapons to make it Viewed as viable for PvP.
TDs suck. Waste of midslot.. yet that changed.. with nothing happening to TDs, infact they've gotten nerfed and are still more prevelent than Viewed in the past.
Armor-HAC fleets rule the universe.. no, wait.. alpha maels rule the universe.. nothing changed (disclaimer - the arty change '09 helped but the docturine wasn't implemented till much later...).
Golem is PvE god.. no, wait Mach.. no, wait.. Tengu.. what changed exactly when those changes happened?
Long list made short.. **** changes without **** being changed. Funny how that is.. people come up with these notions right off the bat, and for some reason.. cement them into stone. I find it to be a lot of Fail in personality to hold so much conviction.. with letting past experince weigh so heavily upon present transistions.
The result is this.. when changes do happen.. people don't really have a clue on the end result. Speculation seems to hold more sway on these forums than legitament repeated experince. And I mean repeated.. dumb ass everybody claiming a ship sucks simply becuase they hit paper with their rock on the first go.
And with that, while the cane obviously took a hit.. it was by no means drastic. It can still be used, and used very successfully. What happened is there is going to be more options for people to explore, and use with equal success than simply drake/cane or go home. It is going to take some time to find the most optimal fits too.. fight after fight after fight after fight to garnish reliable proof, than number punching. The cane docturine really hasn't changed.. take it out, and smash good pilots trying the new BCs in different fits they aren't used to. Can sit in the lab and design the perfect gun.. then when u give it to a soldier, actual battle field results don't pan out. This has happened time n again throughout the history of weapons.
Cane is also going to weild the term of 'inferior'.. making people more inclined to fight something that really isn't that badly nerfed.. at all. That in itself.. is a buff to me.
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