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I know that AFK hauling (even in HighSec) is bad, but...

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Rizon Nihilon Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2013.02.22 03:54:00 - [1] - Quote I'm not always able to pay attention to the 26 jumps I may need to make to reach my destination. I know that I am thoughtless and evil person for this. So... what's the best way to beef up my Mammoth so that it's less likely to be targeted (and might possibly sustain) in the event that I absent-mindedly try to shuffle through some sort of suicide camp during a high-sec hauling run? Right now all I know is to add a few medium extenders. But I'm not sure what other passive modules I can add and I'm not sure how much security this will provide me all around? What would I be able to survive? Any thoughts? And again... I am truly sorry for being such a foolish and shameful pilot. I just want to get to my markets as certainly as possible but still not have to be there to twitch and panic at each jump.
Fozzy Dorsai Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State 25	Posted - 2013.02.22 04:01:00 - [2] - Quote There is nothing you can do to keep from getting ganked if someone wants to gank you. Yes, extenders are nice and you might want to plug some shield holes with amps (not fields as they deactivate going through a gate). But really, the way you minimize ganks is to not carry anything too valuable. The exact number varies depending on who you ask, but if you carry less than 200m isk worth of stuff you minimize the folks who will want to gank you.
c4binfever Morte Aut Gloria 0	Posted - 2013.02.22 04:09:00 - [3] - Quote Whenever auto-hauling ask yourself the question; "If i lose this shipment will i be butthurt?" You can protect yourself to some degree, but as Fozzy said there's always a bigger gank gang. Have a rough isk value in mind and simply don't AP if you deem it valuable enough.
Seven Noctis 161	Posted - 2013.02.22 04:45:00 - [4] - Quote The only real way to mitigate the risk of getting ganked in your hauler (apart from not carrying anything too expensive) is to minimize exposure. Jump manually and fit some inertia stabilizers (so you enter warp quicker) so you are not open for attack for extended periods of time. Use mid and rig slots for best shield buffer + (passive) universal resists you can get. Auto-piloting in a slow ship like an industrial is also painfully... well, slow. I strongly suggest you do not auto-pilot on your hauling runs. If you dislike them so much, better avoid them altogether if possible.
Rizon Nihilon Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2013.02.22 05:01:00 - [5] - Quote Thanks all. I'd been finding it easy to afk haul until today (when I got suicide ganked twice with 2 expensive loads) and was hoping I could find a way to continue without getting ganked anymore. It was nice setting my destination and coming back an hour later to complete whatever deal I was making. I guess that's really not feasible. But I was hoping I could fit an industrial with enough HP to at least discourage the ganks. I'll figure something else out. May just stick with station trading.
Fractal Muse Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic 224	Posted - 2013.02.22 05:06:00 - [6] - Quote Ganking consists of mainly of two methodologies: an alpha attack (one strike doing enough damage to blow up a ship) or an attack that does enough damage before CONCORD steps in. You can tank a mammoth so that it has over 23,000 ehp and a tank of 260. You could probably do better than that but I threw this together as a bit of a giggle when I was out in 0.0 for a bait mammoth. [Mammoth, Bait Mam] Damage Control II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Medium Shield Extender II Medium Shield Extender II Medium Shield Extender II Medium Shield Extender II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II [empty high slot] [empty high slot] Medium Core Defense Field Extender I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I Medium Core Defense Field Purger I With all level 5 skills, it has 23,140 EHP. In a 0.7 system, it takes CONCORD roughly 12 seconds to respond. That means it would take just under 2,200 DPS to destroy your mammoth in that amount of time. In a lower security system, CONCORD reacts slower so that is a consideration based on which systems you are going through. 2,200 DPS is four tech 2 catalysts (destroyers) for a cost of ~60 million (estimating 15 million per catalyst) or two tech 2 taloses (~180 million). In a 0.5 system it takes roughly 15 seconds (I'm being generous) for CONCORD to respond. That's roughly 1800 DPS to destroy your mammoth. With a fit like that you are, basically, safe from a single ship but if you are carrying some worthwhile cargo (valued at over 200 million) then you may be a value target for a group of gankers. But, usually, there are easier targets for them to hit so you may get the pass. Still, I dunno how worth it is. If you are going to do some AFK hauling I would suggest to at least get yourself a mastodon. Then you can fly with over 82,000 EHP.
Seven Noctis 161	Posted - 2013.02.22 05:20:00 - [7] - Quote Fractal Muse wrote: You can tank a mammoth so that it has over 23,000 ehp and a tank of 260. You could probably do better than that but I threw this together as a bit of a giggle when I was out in 0.0 for a bait mammoth. You neglected to note that your hypothetical fit has active modules in it, which would deactivate between jumps, and so it would not work as described while AFK hauling. The OP is also pretty far from having all relevant skills at 5.
Yuki Shin-Jan Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 4	Posted - 2013.02.22 05:23:00 - [8] - Quote No one is safe in EVE and everyone (other than station traders that never ever leave station) will be killed if someone wants you dead enough.
Fractal Muse Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic 224	Posted - 2013.02.22 05:30:00 - [9] - Quote Seven Noctis wrote: Fractal Muse wrote: You can tank a mammoth so that it has over 23,000 ehp and a tank of 260. You could probably do better than that but I threw this together as a bit of a giggle when I was out in 0.0 for a bait mammoth. You neglected to note that your hypothetical fit has active modules in it, which would deactivate between jumps, and so it would not work as described while AFK hauling. The OP is also pretty far from having all relevant skills at 5. Good catch. I didn't spend a lot of time checking out the fit ;) I suppose with a fully passive fit you can get a mammoth to just under 16k EHP maybe more depending what you do with it. Either way, I'd still suggest going to a mastodon instead for the far higher EHP.
Seven Noctis 161	Posted - 2013.02.22 05:35:00 - [10] - Quote Yuki Shin-Jan wrote: No one is safe in EVE and everyone (other than station traders that never ever leave station) will be killed if someone wants you dead enough. EVE is actually ridiculously safe (if you want it to be) for an open PvP game. Regardless, we are not talking about the possibility of avoiding risk, we are talking about managing it, and your comment is not helping in that regard.
Tamiya Sarossa Resistance is Character Forming 243	Posted - 2013.02.22 07:19:00 - [11] - Quote Avoiding default gank systems such as Niarja will go a long way towards minimizing risk, but really, if a deal is worth doing, it's worth contracting the risk off to a third party such as Red Frog or even public contracts. Hauling is a low thought, low skill profession, and prices reflect that. (not to badmouth haulers, you're my heroes. I wouldn't have the patience for it.)
Rizon Nihilon Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2013.02.22 08:44:00 - [12] - Quote Tamiya Sarossa wrote: Avoiding default gank systems such as Niarja will go a long way towards minimizing risk, but really, if a deal is worth doing, it's worth contracting the risk off to a third party such as Red Frog or even public contracts. Hauling is a low thought, low skill profession, and prices reflect that. (not to badmouth haulers, you're my heroes. I wouldn't have the patience for it.) No offense taken. I decided to start off hauling because I know I'll stick around for the PvP and wanted to first build a nest egg with minimal effort. That as opposed to the typical route of starting off PvP and then working on ways to earn ISK later. But those ganks hurt and I'm looking for some more security at this point -- and was hoping to be able to tank enough to survive a typical gank in high-sec while I'm afk. I'll look into the Niarja system (as I know nothing of such things at this point). Anyway... glad to be your hero.
Ember Saint Time-Lost Proto-Drake 8	Posted - 2013.02.22 10:19:00 - [13] - Quote maybe you should maximize the EHP instead of seeking recharge. screw the spr-s (in favour of pdu) and purger (in favour of another cdfe). you can get like 30k (34k if you start getting ganked and OH your invuls) out of a mammoth quite easily.
Rizon Nihilon Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2013.02.22 11:30:00 - [14] - Quote A couple things have come to my attention. The first, and probably most important for my purposes here, is the prospect of hauling during off-peak hours. This makes a ton of sense to me and seems like it would dramatically reduce my chances of getting ganked. Is this correct? And with Eve being an international thing... when are those off-peak hours? Second... I've been able to work out a low-skill Mammoth fit with over 10,000 EHP in passive tank. What kind of ships could this amount of tank generally survive? Perhaps with both these factors combined I would be relatively safe hauling in high-sec? As long as I stayed below... 100 million ISK loads?
Ronix Aideron The Ugly Ass Kickers Mech Alliance 73	Posted - 2013.02.22 11:42:00 - [15] - Quote I do some hauling on the side and use 'off-peak' for my low sec runs while I wait for my T2 indy. I define off peak as: Immediately before and after downtime (within the first or last hour) Certain times during the day Europe and the US tend to be early morning/mid day and low sec can be very quiet. Europe is +5 hours over the Eastern timezone. http://eveboard.com/pilot/Ronix_Aideron
Selene Nask Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2013.02.22 12:36:00 - [16] - Quote Off peak times is a good suggestion. I don't do tons of hauling but occasionally need to move stuff around. I don't like taking the risk of autopiloting but boy just staring at the screen for an hour as I slowly tug along can be excruciating. What I do is semi afk haul. I minimize my windows and set them side by side and use the time to check emails or whatever else I need to do on the internet. That way I'm still easily able to manually warp from gate to gate which is safer and faster and get something else done at the same time.
Castrisles 8-bit Slackers 3	Posted - 2013.02.22 17:03:00 - [17] - Quote What I do is I spend 15 minutes traveling, then dock in at a station, watch some TV or clean up the appartment, then I come back and go for another 15 minutes. just go at your pace, and when you wanna take a break, just dock in and take your break :)
Lady Naween Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel 97	Posted - 2013.02.22 17:04:00 - [18] - Quote Rizon Nihilon wrote: (when I got suicide ganked twice with 2 expensive loads) the magic words. If you are afk, dont fly with anything expensive. do more trips instead, you are afk so time doesnt matter right? only time i fly afk in my charon is when it only has like 200 mill or so. then i reaaaaaally cant be arsed to manually pilot from goinard to jita. and that is a freighter so it has way more EHP then a t1 industrial. am I paranoid? Yupp, but i ganked enough haulers to know how easy they pop after all ^^
J'Poll The Fiction Factory Tribal Band 1908	Posted - 2013.02.22 18:25:00 - [19] - Quote Tamiya Sarossa wrote: Avoiding default gank systems such as Niarja will go a long way towards minimizing risk, but really, if a deal is worth doing, it's worth contracting the risk off to a third party such as Red Frog or even public contracts. Hauling is a low thought, low skill profession, and prices reflect that. (not to badmouth haulers, you're my heroes. I wouldn't have the patience for it.) This. Hauling is even worse then mining in terms of excitement. Thats why I let Red Frog do it while I do other more exciting stuff.
Rizon Nihilon Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2013.02.22 19:32:00 - [20] - Quote J'Poll wrote: This. Hauling is even worse then mining in terms of excitement. Thats why I let Red Frog do it while I do other more exciting stuff. I doubt many professional haulers are pretending to do so for the sheer thrill of it all. But it doesn't seem the worst way to earn enough ISK to pay for a PLEX.
Vortexo VonBrenner Coldest Sea Sailing The Honda Accord 39	Posted - 2013.02.23 02:21:00 - [21] - Quote Lady Naween wrote: Rizon Nihilon wrote: (when I got suicide ganked twice with 2 expensive loads) the magic words. If you are afk, dont fly with anything expensive. do more trips instead, you are afk so time doesnt matter right? only time i fly afk in my charon is when it only has like 200 mill or so. then i reaaaaaally cant be arsed to manually pilot from goinard to jita. and that is a freighter so it has way more EHP then a t1 industrial. am I paranoid? Yupp, but i ganked enough haulers to know how easy they pop after all ^^ ^^^^ Your best defense is simply not to go afk and not to carry expensive loads...sorry. Niarja is a "choke point" system on the crowded route to the Amarr trade hub. Udema is one on the route to the Jita trade hub. I'm listening to-áBj+¦rk, playing EVE, eating fishsticks, and I'm cold....this is immersion gaming.
Mara Pahrdi The Order of Anoyia 305	Posted - 2013.02.23 08:51:00 - [22] - Quote Rizon Nihilon wrote: Perhaps with both these factors combined I would be relatively safe hauling in high-sec? As long as I stayed below... 100 million ISK loads? Look at the math presented earlier in the thread. To be somewhat safe in a max buffer tanked T1 hauler, I'd stay below those 60m. The general figure I remember reading as the maximum for a T1 hauler when I started 2 years ago was 100m. Dessies, cruisers and bcs have been buffed since then, T1 haulers haven't changed (yet). So it will definitely be below those 100m. Off peak hours I consider good for hauling expensive stuff are 8-11 EVE time on week days. Most of US tz should be asleep and EU tz is either at work or at school/university etc. . Remove insurance.
J'Poll The Fiction Factory Tribal Band 1913	Posted - 2013.02.23 09:14:00 - [23] - Quote Rizon Nihilon wrote: J'Poll wrote: This. Hauling is even worse then mining in terms of excitement. Thats why I let Red Frog do it while I do other more exciting stuff. I doubt many professional haulers are pretending to do so for the sheer thrill of it all. But it doesn't seem the worst way to earn enough ISK to pay for a PLEX. I never said that Red Frog is doing it for the thrill. But they are specialized in it and while they do what they do best, I'm having fun.
Psychotic Monk The Skunkworks 755	Posted - 2013.02.23 09:35:00 - [24] - Quote Rizon Nihilon wrote: I doubt many professional haulers are pretending to do so for the sheer thrill of it all. But it doesn't seem the worst way to earn enough ISK to pay for a PLEX. Playing to grind plex is indentured servitude. You`re choosing to work for pennies and hour. Don`t do it. Pay with money. Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement. Have a blog, if you care.
Beckie DeLey Living From Scraps 334	Posted - 2013.02.23 10:41:00 - [25] - Quote Also, if you want to avoid being ganked on your AFK trips, you probably shouldn't advertise them on the forums. But seriously, just pay Red Frog the scraps and do something worthwhile instead. So... i started an industry blog at www.derbk.com/eve There i am preparing a guide to all things related to manufacturing. Check it out!
Eram Fidard Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 40	Posted - 2013.02.23 12:15:00 - [26] - Quote hi-sec hauling is something to do while your favourite show is on... Just find something else to do, and click the yellow gate every minute or two. Simply manually piloting reduces your exposure a lot. The next-best measure is to stay blow a single-tornado-gank threshold in terms of profit. This can be as high as 400m, thanks to loot destruction, not everyone will take the risk. Then your only potential problems will come from organised groups. Again though, it has to be worth the time/effort/ships/possible loot destruction to gank you. So in short, the best possible way to protect your ship from suicide ganking is to think like a ganker. Figure out the best and cheapest way to alpha your hauler, and use that as a baseline.
KaarBaak 260	Posted - 2013.02.24 03:02:00 - [27] - Quote Name your ship "Bait"
Shan'Talasha Mea'Questa The Perfect Harvesting Experience 84	Posted - 2013.02.25 17:24:00 - [28] - Quote Also, try a "hands on" trip over 26 jumps and then autopilot back empty with the same setup. Time both runs and compare. Then decide if it is worth the risk being ganked while slowboating the 15km to a gate.
Niveuss Nye The Advent of Faith 20	Posted - 2013.02.25 17:45:00 - [29] - Quote Bad idea.... If you "must" go AFK say for needing to tab out to another client to handle something pressing, at least be there for the last 3 jumps into whatever market system you happen to be going to. People who prefer the ganking playstyle tend to hang out at bottlenecks on the entrance to hubs like Jita in Perimeter and outside the stations themselves. There also, at least on my end, tends to be a delay in docking when tabbed out to another client. Oh yeah, and I should not have to tell you if you are AFK in some low sec system, you are a kill mail waiting to happen.

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