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Why not Projectiles for Apoc PvE?

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Amber Bock	Posted - 2005.08.04 13:42:00 - [1] I don't see any setups where people use projectiles.... Lasers, even with lvl4 BS take a lot of cap. Projectiles take none. Lasers also do almost no damage to armor. I've found that my lasers do less damage and allow me to tank less as well. Apocs don't get any damage bonuses.... Thoughts?
Tar om	Posted - 2005.08.04 13:49:00 - [2] Projectiles don't do much damage without the Minmatar ship bonuses. This is to stop people fitting them to other races ships and being able to use all their cap on tanking :) You can use them, but you won't get as much DoT as a Minmatar ship. -- We are the Octavian Vanguard www.octavianvanguard.net http://www.serenitymovie.com
Omatje	Posted - 2005.08.04 13:57:00 - [3] Edited by: Omatje on 04/08/2005 13:57:21 Originally by: Amber Bock Lasers, even with lvl4 BS take a lot of cap. Projectiles take none. Thoughts? That is not true. Medium and Large Projectiles do use cap, it's not much but when you are out of cap your guns will go inactive. Quote: We're not a turret race..or a drone race..or a missile race.We're a omgwtfthroweverythingandkitchensink offensive race,if we could break off pieces of our ship and sling them at you,we would!
Tul 'Kas	Posted - 2005.08.04 14:28:00 - [4] Originally by: Tar om Projectiles don't do much damage without the Minmatar ship bonuses. This is to stop people fitting them to other races ships and being able to use all their cap on tanking :) You can use them, but you won't get as much DoT as a Minmatar ship. Pretty much sums it up. Only time I see projectiles on an apoc being useful in PVE would be fighting angels - they're pretty heavily tanked against em/thermal; projectiles would let you concentrate on their weakness to explosive. Generally, if you're going without ship bonuses, hybrids should outperform projectiles in pretty much all cases. I suspect even against angels, hybrids' better inherent damage would compensate for being restricted to kin/therm damage. But I don't know how the cap cost of hybrids compares to lasers.
dust monkey	Posted - 2005.08.04 14:42:00 - [5] acturly they dont go inative its great, i got my friend to nos my cyclone with 2 large nosses and i had 0 cap and still fireing at him :D minmatar guns are great, and a week later while i was holiday he lost his raven to npc rats ---------- I AM THE DUST MONKEY FEAR MY WRATH
Alowishus	Posted - 2005.08.04 15:43:00 - [6] I did the math on this. Apoc with 8x 1400mm and 7x Gyro 2 does less damage than a Tempest with 6x 1400mm and 6x Gyro 2.
Muad 'dib	Posted - 2005.08.04 15:47:00 - [7] Edited by: Muad ''dib on 04/08/2005 15:47:30 no i should learn to read before posting, nvm ;) wheres my delete post button gone!
Weirda	Posted - 2005.08.04 15:56:00 - [8] Originally by: dust monkey acturly they dont go inative its great, i got my friend to nos my cyclone with 2 large nosses and i had 0 cap and still fireing at him :D minmatar guns are great, and a week later while i was holiday he lost his raven to npc rats were you using named guns? they use no cap... the rest do (tech II is really like tech 1.5 in cap department...) to the OP though - when NPCing, the fact that lasers use 0 ammo is > then all... fighting anything but angels you will almost always be better off... if you are fighting long range, you shouldn't need much of a tank... if you are fighting close range, your guns will leave you more cap for tank. -- Thread Killer <END TRANSMISSION>
Fred0	Posted - 2005.08.04 18:04:00 - [9] Originally by: Alowishus I did the math on this. Apoc with 8x 1400mm and 7x Gyro 2 does less damage than a Tempest with 6x 1400mm and 6x Gyro 2. Yeah, but looking at volley damage the apoc wins it apparently. What's your cup of tea?
Idara	Posted - 2005.08.04 18:05:00 - [10] Well seeing that Lasers only do EM and Thermal damage, and those types are usually the best resistances listed for most non-Amarr NPC's, you will do less damage to Serpentis or Angels with an Apoc with lasers. While using projectiles would let you be able to fight more NPC types for more damage.
Fuazzole	Posted - 2005.08.04 18:10:00 - [11] Originally by: Alowishus I did the math on this. Apoc with 8x 1400mm and 7x Gyro 2 does less damage than a Tempest with 6x 1400mm and 6x Gyro 2. at what skill lvl's
DrunkenOne	Posted - 2005.08.04 18:33:00 - [12] Originally by: Fuazzole Originally by: Alowishus I did the math on this. Apoc with 8x 1400mm and 7x Gyro 2 does less damage than a Tempest with 6x 1400mm and 6x Gyro 2. at what skill lvl's Only at BS 5. W/ BS 4, apoc outdamages it by quite a lot. I Die A lot in this vid
Ice Foxy	Posted - 2005.08.04 18:39:00 - [13] Edited by: Ice Foxy on 04/08/2005 18:39:55 How does a Blasterpoc compare? probibly not worth it without the Tracking and damage bonuses of the megathron, I just wondered if anyone had tried it. Im sure the Apoc probibly has the cap to deal with blasters
Dimitri Forgroth	Posted - 2005.08.04 18:43:00 - [14] Edited by: Dimitri Forgroth on 04/08/2005 18:43:06 Geddon + blasters works, so apoc + blasters will probably work too. (Watch drunks vid. ) \| Don't be a bad loser \|
LUKEC	Posted - 2005.08.04 19:44:00 - [15] problem is that rails use alot of cpu, while projectiles almost none. Compare this: 1400mm t2: 47 cpu 425mm t2: 77cpu ACs: neutrons II: 72 cpu 800mm ac II: 41 cpu Oh just as a sidewhine... tempest and mega have same cpu. And apoc's cpu is ~50less than mega's. So projectiles are better choice. There is nothing wrong with projectiles on poc.
Nervar	Posted - 2005.08.04 19:50:00 - [16] Edited by: Nervar on 04/08/2005 19:51:39 Originally by: LUKEC Compare this: 1400mm t2: 47 cpu 425mm t2: 77cpu ACs: neutrons II: 72 cpu 800mm ac II: 41 cpu Oh just as a sidewhine... tempest and mega have same cpu. And apoc's cpu is ~50less than mega's. So projectiles are better choice. There is nothing wrong with projectiles on poc. 1400-425's look at grid rec's.... and the comparision betwen 800's and neutrons is wrong. compare them to ion's. Gee wee, suddenly the projectiles use more grid again... Hey not to mention temps are primarely shield tanks while gallente are not. hence the lower cpu usage. -------------------------------------------------> What I look forward to is continued immaturity followed by death.
Ardor	Posted - 2005.08.04 19:53:00 - [17] Edited by: Ardor on 04/08/2005 20:10:22 against base shield resistance of 0% em, 20% thermal, 40% kinetic and 60% explosive - Megabeam on Apocalypse with Multifrequancy does 14.666 dmg/sec - 425 Rail on Apocalypse with Antimatter does 9.432 dmg/sec - 1400 mm on Apocalypse with Phased Plama does 7.396 dmg/sec - 1400 mm on Apocalypse with Fusion does 4.281 dmg/sec - 1400 mm on Apocalypse with EMP does 7.59 dmg/sec against base armor resistance of 60% em, 35% thermal, 25% kinetic and 10% explosive - Megabeam on Apocalypse with Multifrequancy does 8.066 dmg/sec - 425 Rail on Apocalypse with Antimatter does 9.776 dmg/sec - 1400 mm on Apocalypse with Phased Plama does 6.52 dmg/sec - 1400 mm on Apocalypse with Fusion does 8.466 dmg/sec - 1400 mm on Apocalypse with EMP does 6.909 dmg/sec ... without skills (which should be the same for all weapons) and obviously without ship bonus. Hybrid weapons use energy and are way harder to fit on an Apocalypse because of higher cpu requirements. They do the best damage against armor tanks. 1400mm Howitzers are a valid alternative on the Apocalypse if you are fighting against armor tanks. They don't use that much energy and need 10tf less cpu each gun. The advantage of lasers is best tracking and no Ammo usage for NPCing. edit: against base shields: - 1400 mm on Tempest with Phased Plama does 12.277 dmg/sec - 1400 mm on Tempest with Fusion does 7.106 dmg/sec - 1400 mm on Tempest with EMP does 12.599 dmg/sec - 425 Rail on Megathron with Antimatter does 11.79 dmg/sec against base armor: - 1400 mm on Tempest with Phased Plama does 10.823 dmg/sec - 1400 mm on Tempest with Fusion does 14.053 dmg/sec - 1400 mm on Tempest with EMP does 11.468 dmg/sec - 425 Rail on Megathron with Antimatter does 12.22 dmg/sec ... without gunnery skills (which should be the same for all weapons) but with Gallente/Minmatar battleship skill at level 5.
Alowishus	Posted - 2005.08.04 20:55:00 - [18] Originally by: DrunkenOne Originally by: Fuazzole Originally by: Alowishus I did the math on this. Apoc with 8x 1400mm and 7x Gyro 2 does less damage than a Tempest with 6x 1400mm and 6x Gyro 2. at what skill lvl's Only at BS 5. W/ BS 4, apoc outdamages it by quite a lot. Do us all a favor and try to know what you're talking about before you post. I have Minmatar BS 4, and Amarr BS 4. I mounted 6x Gyro 2s on my Tempest and 7x Gryo 2s on my Apoc. I then mounted 1x 1400mm on each. The Damage modifier on the Tempest was higher and the ROF was lower. Multiply by 6x for the Tempest and it was still higher than 8x for the Apoc. Give it a try and let me know what you find out.
Fuazzole	Posted - 2005.08.04 20:58:00 - [19] "I then mounted 1x 1400mm on each." why just 1
Alowishus	Posted - 2005.08.04 21:07:00 - [20] Originally by: Fuazzole "I then mounted 1x 1400mm on each." why just 1 Time?
Fuazzole	Posted - 2005.08.04 21:11:00 - [21] Originally by: Alowishus Originally by: Fuazzole "I then mounted 1x 1400mm on each." why just 1 Time? can both ships run a full rack with gyro's in the low's
Alowishus	Posted - 2005.08.04 21:30:00 - [22] Dunno. Thought a Tempest could run 6x 1400mm with maxed advanced weapon upgrades.
Meridius	Posted - 2005.08.04 21:30:00 - [23] Originally by: Fuazzole Originally by: Alowishus Originally by: Fuazzole "I then mounted 1x 1400mm on each." why just 1 Time? can both ships run a full rack with gyro's in the low's With AWU 5 yes. It might be AWU 4 for the apoc to mount 8, not sure and cba to check. ________________________________________________________
Meridius	Posted - 2005.08.04 21:44:00 - [24] Originally by: Alowishus Dunno. Thought a Tempest could run 6x 1400mm with maxed advanced weapon upgrades. It can ________________________________________________________
Apoll	Posted - 2005.08.04 23:25:00 - [25] Hmm. There is a significant difference. Apoc has +2 guns which are +25% damage than Tempest at Skill 0 (assume) At BS skill 5 (who take few months :) ) Tempest do the same damage as Apoc (not ROF counted yet). Now, Using +1 Gyro than Tempest is roughly +5% damage in favour of Apoc. Regarding the ROF, Tempest at level 5 has a native +25% which is above the 5% APOC (maybe it's 5 it's just too late to calculate multiple gyrostab stacking bonuses). So aproximately we have the Apoc do +5% damage per voley and Tempest +20% ROF. Summary. Per Voley APOC do more damage, while Tempest has better dps. The difference isn't huge. So on PVE you can use the APOC which also do not need few months training :) Regarding the HUGE amount of cap 1400 T2 need, is 3 -Controlled Burst, while MEGA PULSE T2 is 20 + Crystal - Controlled Burst. The spooky thing I saw was Tempest with Megapulses (Pirate).
Ardor	Posted - 2005.08.04 23:56:00 - [26] The combination of a 25% damage bonus and a 25% RoF bonus is a 66% DoT bonus. The Apocalypse can mount eight 1400mm which do damage without damage bonus. Six 1400mm on a Tempest with battleship skill at level 5 do the damage that 9.96 (6*1.66) 1400mm would do on an Apocalypse.
Angelus X	Posted - 2005.08.05 00:23:00 - [27] How about for long range/fleet setups on an apoc? What does better damage, 8x 1400mm T1, or Tachyon T1? Or 8x 1400mm T2, or Tachyon T2?
Jaraa	Posted - 2005.08.05 10:27:00 - [28] Originally by: Omatje Edited by: Omatje on 04/08/2005 13:57:21 Originally by: Amber Bock Lasers, even with lvl4 BS take a lot of cap. Projectiles take none. Thoughts? That is not true. Medium and Large Projectiles do use cap, it's not much but when you are out of cap your guns will go inactive. this has nothing to do with the post but OMG i love your sig
Bottled Brain	Posted - 2005.08.05 11:37:00 - [29] Originally by: Ardor Edited by: Ardor on 04/08/2005 20:10:22 ... against base armor resistance of 60% em, 35% thermal, 25% kinetic and 10% explosive - Megabeam on Apocalypse with Multifrequancy does 8.066 dmg/sec ... - 1400 mm on Apocalypse with EMP does 6.909 dmg/sec ... Maybe I¦m wrong, but I don¦t think this set of resistences is correct. Minmatar bs have 70% 35% 25% 10% and Amarr bs 60% 35% 25% 20%. So the damage against a minmatar bs is even closer between megabeam 7.13 and 1400mm 6.43. But I really can¦t believe somebody is using 1400mm with their crappy tracking if he¦s not forced to.
Apoll	Posted - 2005.08.05 12:47:00 - [30] Originally by: Ardor The combination of a 25% damage bonus and a 25% RoF bonus is a 66% DoT bonus. The Apocalypse can mount eight 1400mm which do damage without damage bonus. Six 1400mm on a Tempest with battleship skill at level 5 do the damage that 9.96 (6*1.66) 1400mm would do on an Apocalypse. Thanks you did the final calculations :) It's basicaly around 1.64 guns the difference if you fit in all low gyro t2 on both ships. (Full gang). It's crazy ofc such small difference of 2 guns between a native ship and a "xenos". But staying on the thread, yes you can fit 1400mm guns on APOC and be very effective killing NPCs. You can get the named one no need to go for t2. ofc with 1400mm you cannot hit the fast zooming frigs alone. You need to bring a friend with you. Or else try to find in the forums the thread regarding the Prophecy fitting. We have there some tempting :) setups with Autocannons, and 650/720 cannons. (And good tanking abilities). We just need to be openminded.

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