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Fuazzole
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Posted - 2005.08.07 17:21:00 -
[31]
GArrr enuf of these threads
i can run a 400mm on a destroyer and a "medium" shield booster
i have enuf cap to get more hp out of the shield booster than the plate,...and it dont take long
plate's are easyer to fit than extendors,....
boosters are easyer to fit than repair's
the whole reson for this is to make shields and armour different,....different tactic's and fitting's
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Pottsey
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Posted - 2005.08.07 17:35:00 -
[32]
ô2) make small/micro/medium extenders closer to their armor counterparts hp-wiseö
As I pointed out before the shields on the extender ships are already 30 to 60% higher then the plate ships. If you go about increasing each extender to match the counterpart plate then the extender ship will have 60 to 120% more hitpoints and a lot more HP regen then the plate ships.
You keep trying to match the extenders to plate per module but that does not work. You have to take the full ship into account. When you do that extenders are perfect how they are. Balancing does not mean everything has to be the same. Each module has a different advantage and disadvantage.
ô- stacking penalties would ensure passive tanks don't get out of control.ö
But passive tanks are not out of control now. So adding a stacking penalty would just make the ships weaker. Stacking penalties are not needed.
Plate and extenders are pretty much perfectly balanced. I donÆt see any need to start massively changing how they work. Well perhaps add in Xlarge plates and Xlarge extenders.
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Pottsey
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Posted - 2005.08.07 17:40:00 -
[33]
ôEven bumping it up to 2500 hp per extender starts to push single extender passive tanks into effectiveness.ö
Right now I get well over 3000+ hitpoints from each extender I add. I donÆt think bumping up the base of an extender is a good idea.
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Junna Isiene
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Posted - 2005.08.07 17:50:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Junna Isiene on 07/08/2005 17:51:27
 Originally by: Pottsey
You keep trying to match the extenders to plate per module but that does not work. You have to take the full ship into account. When you do that extenders are perfect how they are.
Yet strangely enough every second frigate/interceptor setup people mention includes armor plate... but you'd be hard pressed to find anyone but yourself ever mention shield extender as part of their setup on ship smaller than battlecruiser.
If small plates and shield extenders are as balanced as you imply they are, this begs simple question. Why are the plates mentioned frequently in frigate setups, and the shield extenders aren't?
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Elve Sorrow
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Posted - 2005.08.07 17:53:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Elve Sorrow on 07/08/2005 17:55:57
For exactly the same reason that noone passive shieldtanks, even though it's been shown on multiple occasions it can be better then active tanking?
People hate thinking out of the box, and worse, people wont try something untill the forums say it's good. Please continue with that behaviour though, makes life easier for those of us who do try new things.
EDIT:
Bit of grammar
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Junna Isiene
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Posted - 2005.08.07 18:03:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Elve Sorrow
Edited by: Elve Sorrow on 07/08/2005 17:55:57
For exactly the same reason that noone passive shieldtanks, even though it's been shown on multiple occasions it can be better then active tanking?
People hate thinking out of the box, and worse, people wont try something untill the forums say it's good. Please continue with that behaviour though, makes life easier for those of us who do try new things.
I thought people didn't passive tank because typical passive tanking setups tended to either #1 do it at expense of cap recharge, and no cap = bad idea when you're part of fast moving force that has to jump across multiple systems, or even use cap to use their weapons... or #2, they'd take the slots which could be nicely fitted with damage mods which is preferable to tanking in general.
Both seem like valid reasons to not passive shield tank, and both have very little to do with reasons provided against shield extenders on frigates...
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Nafri
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Posted - 2005.08.07 18:05:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Junna Isiene
Originally by: Elve Sorrow
Edited by: Elve Sorrow on 07/08/2005 17:55:57
For exactly the same reason that noone passive shieldtanks, even though it's been shown on multiple occasions it can be better then active tanking?
People hate thinking out of the box, and worse, people wont try something untill the forums say it's good. Please continue with that behaviour though, makes life easier for those of us who do try new things.
I thought people didn't passive tank because typical passive tanking setups tended to either #1 do it at expense of cap recharge, and no cap = bad idea when you're part of fast moving force that has to jump across multiple systems, or even use cap to use their weapons... or #2, they'd take the slots which could be nicely fitted with damage mods which is preferable to tanking in general.
Both seem like valid reasons to not passive shield tank, and both have very little to do with reasons provided against shield extenders on frigates...
people dont passive tank cause mostly thy haver other things to do with thier midslots
and what people forget here, most of the time you fly ceptor/aussault, which dont have the CPU to fit any shield extenders at all
Your bla bla hit bla bla for bla bla damage. Wanna have some bubu now? |
Elve Sorrow
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Posted - 2005.08.07 18:06:00 -
[38]
Edited by: Elve Sorrow on 07/08/2005 18:06:33
Just pointing out that even though the majority of people may think something crap, it doesn't have to be.
Personally i wouldn't use Extenders for the reason Nafri stated, but that doesn't mean they're ineffective.
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Junna Isiene
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Posted - 2005.08.07 18:11:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Elve Sorrow
Edited by: Elve Sorrow on 07/08/2005 18:06:33
Personally i wouldn't use Extenders for the reason Nafri stated, but that doesn't mean they're ineffective.
Doesn't that prove the original point? You don't consider the extenders worthy of mid slot. I'd dare a guess you actually do at least consider fitting the plate in low slot, instead of dismissing it outright.
And if that doesn't show that extenders and plates aren't balanced given the cost of slot they use, then i don't know what does...
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JoeSomebody
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Posted - 2005.08.07 18:13:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Pottsey
ô2) make small/micro/medium extenders closer to their armor counterparts hp-wiseö
As I pointed out before the shields on the extender ships are already 30 to 60% higher then the plate ships. If you go about increasing each extender to match the counterpart plate then the extender ship will have 60 to 120% more hitpoints and a lot more HP regen then the plate ships.
You keep trying to match the extenders to plate per module but that does not work. You have to take the full ship into account. When you do that extenders are perfect how they are. Balancing does not mean everything has to be the same. Each module has a different advantage and disadvantage.
I have different opinion on that. I think it is you who focuses on details too much and fails to see picture as a whole. Your Tristan setup does show that very nicely.
____
When flying by Concord Customs Commander's Dominix I distinctly heard him saying "... world domination..." |
Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2005.08.07 18:39:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Hanns
Edited by: Hanns on 07/08/2005 16:47:46
I agree that shield extenders need some love, but plz stop comparing Battleship modules to Cruiser to frigate modules!! 400mm = Cruiser, so dont compare to a small shield extender, same for 800mm is a BS module, so dont compare to a Medium extender just view the 1600mm as an XLarge shield extender (i know that dosent exist but thats how the plates pan out.)
The scaling is out of wack then.... the 800mm plate seems very much like a cruiser module to me when it comes to fitting... the large shield extender is more or less impossible to fit on a cruiser without serious gimpage occuring, it defidently a bship module.
Lrg Shield Extender is 2,100hp, which isnt too bad. Medium is 840hp... wtf?
1600mm plate II is 3,360 and 800mm plate II is 1,682. In other words a 800mm plate is simply a 1600mm / 2.
Using that logic shouldn't a medium shield extender II give at least 1,000hp bonus?
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ROBBLE ROBBLE |
Pottsey
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Posted - 2005.08.07 18:47:00 -
[42]
ôI thought people didn't passive tank because typical passive tanking setups tended to either #1 do it at expense of cap recharge, and no cap = bad idea when you're part of fast moving force that has to jump across multiple systems, or even use cap to use their weapons... or #2,ö
Most PvP passive tanks setups boost cap recharge not hurt it. So you can keep up with fleet movements. Very few passive tanks cannot jump across multiple systems. I would say 98% of passive tanks have more then enouhg cap for long system jumps.
ôI have different opinion on that. I think it is you who focuses on details too much and fails to see picture as a whole. Your Tristan setup does show that very nicely.ö
Could you explain what is wrong with my Tristan compared to your setup? I had more hitpoints, bigger weapons and my extender ship could do everything your plate ship could only better.
Could you please explain how my Tristan shows I was focusing on detail to much. If anything it shows how I looked at the full ship with a combination of modules. The extender ship did everything it set out to from being able to tank and having good damage output. It also proves my point extender ships can match and beat plates ships.
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Pottsey
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Posted - 2005.08.07 18:50:00 -
[43]
ôLrg Shield Extender is 2,100hp, which isnt too bad. Medium is 840hp... wtf?
1600mm plate II is 3,360 and 800mm plate II is 1,682. In other words a 800mm plate is simply a 1600mm / 2.
Using that logic shouldn't a medium shield extender II give at least 1,000hp bonus?ö
Balancing does not mean everything has to be the same. Shields extender and plates should not scale in the same way and they should not have the same advantages and disadvantages. If you are going start making them work the same you may as well just scarp them both and replace them with a generic ship hit point system.
Variety is what makes Eve a great game.
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Admiral IceBlock
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Posted - 2005.08.07 18:56:00 -
[44]
now why would you want a tristan with shield extenders instead of plates? with plates you can use your medslots to tackle another ship, and still have some armor hp to survive. now with stupid shield extenders, your just a stupid dummy. whats the use in that?
"We brake for nobody"
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Dimitri Forgroth
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Posted - 2005.08.07 19:04:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Dimitri Forgroth on 07/08/2005 19:04:28
Originally by: Admiral IceBlock
now why would you want a tristan with shield extenders instead of plates? with plates you can use your medslots to tackle another ship, and still have some armor hp to survive. now with stupid shield extenders, your just a stupid dummy. whats the use in that?
Cover your eyes!
Don't be a bad loser | DPS Spreadsheet |
Pottsey
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Posted - 2005.08.07 19:07:00 -
[46]
ônow why would you want a tristan with shield extenders instead of plates? with plates you can use your medslots to tackle another ship, and still have some armor hp to survive. now with stupid shield extenders, your just a stupid dummy. whats the use in that?ö
Far more hitpoints and more HP regen so you last longer. The longer I last the longer I get to shoot back and do more damage while the tacklers ships are doing there job.
Why do so many people want every single ship in the fleet to have EW? I agree if you want a tackler ship then amour plates are better then extenders most of the time. But a well planed fleet has a mix of ships and not all ships will be tacklers.
That and if you take small extenders instead of large you can use your medslots to tackle another ships while fitting damage mods in the low slots mixed with PDS modules to boost shield hitpoints and cap regen.
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JoeSomebody
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Posted - 2005.08.07 19:09:00 -
[47]
Edited by: JoeSomebody on 07/08/2005 19:12:11
Originally by: Pottsey
ôI have different opinion on that. I think it is you who focuses on details too much and fails to see picture as a whole. Your Tristan setup does show that very nicely.ö
Could you explain what is wrong with my Tristan compared to your setup? I had more hitpoints, bigger weapons and my extender ship could do everything your plate ship could only better.
Could you please explain how my Tristan shows I was focusing on detail to much. If anything it shows how I looked at the full ship with a combination of modules. The extender ship did everything it set out to from being able to tank and having good damage output. It also proves my point extender ships can match and beat plates ships.
i already did that in my thread, i guess ill just have to repeat it for you.
1) You stacked yourself with low slot pg mods, which plate user could use MUCH better.
2) You failed to see how 75 pg module is impossible to fit on most other ship, while plate barely suffers from this problem.
3) You have no cpu left for 4th high slot
4) You have absolutely worthless offence
5) You have absolutely worthless speed
You can not kill anything. You can not hold your target. You can not close distance on large targets. You are dead meat sir.
And dont try to compare tristan to kessie plz in pure tank. Tristan has more pg, more slots and more hp in general. Still kessie with a plate is a good combat ship, while tristan fully stacked with shield and support mods is a ...
Edit:
Dimitri Forgroth your link doesnt work
____
When flying by Concord Customs Commander's Dominix I distinctly heard him saying "... world domination..." |
Junna Isiene
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Posted - 2005.08.07 19:22:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Pottsey
Why do so many people want every single ship in the fleet to have EW?
Because so many people think the low slots exist for single purpose -- so you can put a warp core stab in every single one of them.
And no, "if they warped out then it means i won" isn't always true.
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Admiral Kangaroo
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Posted - 2005.08.07 19:26:00 -
[49]
i dunno potsey, i think you have a kick azz tristy setup. it dishes out the damage and has hella shields. i didnt see all of you setup, so i dont know if you have a webber/scrambler, but its still nice for small rats, altho i dunno if i would attack a cruiser unless in a pack but its still a hella tristy setup IMO.
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Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2005.08.07 19:26:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Pottsey
ôLrg Shield Extender is 2,100hp, which isnt too bad. Medium is 840hp... wtf?
1600mm plate II is 3,360 and 800mm plate II is 1,682. In other words a 800mm plate is simply a 1600mm / 2.
Using that logic shouldn't a medium shield extender II give at least 1,000hp bonus?ö
Balancing does not mean everything has to be the same. Shields extender and plates should not scale in the same way and they should not have the same advantages and disadvantages. If you are going start making them work the same you may as well just scarp them both and replace them with a generic ship hit point system.
Variety is what makes Eve a great game.
if by "variety" you mean medium shield extenders are laughable, hard to fit, and worthless, then sure.
i can't fit a lrg shield extender on my cerberus, and a medium is not worth it, period. they should give more hp or add passive resistances.
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ROBBLE ROBBLE |
Pottsey
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Posted - 2005.08.07 19:29:00 -
[51]
ô4) You have absolutely worthless offenceö
X2, 150mm rail guns + standard missile launcher is now worthless? Just what did you fit to your Kestrel with a 400mm plate? Does your plate ship offence match up to my extender ship?
ô5) You have absolutely worthless speedö
You mean like your Kestrel which has -10% velocity from the plate? ThatÆs easy to fix anyway get advanced weapons upgrades skill to free up powergrid then used named Aux cores and fit an afterburner. At least I think that works not tested it.
ôYou can not kill anything. You can not hold your target. You can not close distance on large targets. You are dead meat sir.ö
Why can I not kill anything? The gang can hold the target. You donÆt need every single ship in the gang to be a EW based ship. The Tristan is not an EW ship if I wanted to do EW I would pick a EW based frigate. Also if I wanted a pure EW ship I would not use extenders.
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Pottsey
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Posted - 2005.08.07 19:32:00 -
[52]
ôso i dont know if you have a webber/scrambler, but its still nice for small rats,ö
I took them off so I could fit bigger weapons. The screenshot above has 75mm weapons and EW modules but I prefer no EW modules and 150mm weapons.
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Junna Isiene
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Posted - 2005.08.07 19:35:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Pottsey
X2, 150mm rail guns + standard missile launcher is now worthless? Just what did you fit to your Kestrel with a 400mm plate? Does your plate ship offence match up to my extender ship?
From the other thread on extenders:
"if you compare 4x rocket launchers on Kestrel vs 2x 150mm rails plus missile launcher on Tristan, Kestrel does ~10 dps more... 42'ish vs 32'ish of Tristan"
in other words yes, the offence of plate Kestrel is considerably higher than what that Tristan can do.
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Caeden Nicomachean
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Posted - 2005.08.07 19:39:00 -
[54]
Quote:
You keep trying to match the extenders to plate per module but that does not work. You have to take the full ship into account. When you do that extenders are perfect how they are. Balancing does not mean everything has to be the same. Each module has a different advantage and disadvantage.
Right. Extenders being you can't function as a tackler realistically outside of a couple of ships.
Quote:
ô- stacking penalties would ensure passive tanks don't get out of control.ö
But passive tanks are not out of control now. So adding a stacking penalty would just make the ships weaker. Stacking penalties are not needed.
Come come now. Stacking penalties are suggested obviously if extenders are beefed - ye gads.
Quote:
Plate and extenders are pretty much perfectly balanced. I donÆt see any need to start massively changing how they work. Well perhaps add in Xlarge plates and Xlarge extenders.
On how many ships? You aren't going to fly that Tristan into anything real, bottom line.
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Pottsey
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Posted - 2005.08.07 19:46:00 -
[55]
Edited by: Pottsey on 07/08/2005 19:54:01
"if you compare 4x rocket launchers on Kestrel vs 2x 150mm rails plus missile launcher on Tristan, Kestrel does ~10 dps more... 42'ish vs 32'ish of Tristan"
Small problem the kestrel cannot ft x4 Rocket launchers when using the 400mm plate. Unless my math is wrong.
The only way I can see that working is if you use advanced weapons skills or named aux cores. But I didnÆt use either. If you fit both of those to a Kestrel then we should look at what you can fit on a Tristan with named Aux cores and advanced weapons skills.
I also donÆt see how the Kestrel can use 4x rocket launchers and fill up its mids slots and use's a 400mm plate like so many people are saying it can do.
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Junna Isiene
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Posted - 2005.08.07 20:01:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Pottsey
Small problem the kestrel cannot ft x4 Rocket launchers when using the 400mm plate. Unless my math is wrong.
It's the latter, i think:
400 mm plate = 30 grid
4 rocket launchers = 4 * 4 = 16 grid
webifier = 1 grid
7.5 km scrambler = 1 grid
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total: 48 grid
kestrel grid: 30 + 10 (auxiliary core) * 1.25 (eng 5 bonus) = 50
means you're left with 2 grid spare, 21 cpu and one middle slot... could probably stick a cap recharger there or tech.1 target painter or whatever.
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Pottsey
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Posted - 2005.08.07 20:35:00 -
[57]
ô400 mm plate = 30 grid
4 rocket launchers = 4 * 4 = 16 grid
webifier = 1 grid
7.5 km scrambler = 1 grid
-------------------------
total: 48 gridö
Thanks for writing it out like that I see where I went wrong now. I was thinking of a T2 plate with 35 grid but everyone was talking about a T1 plate. Sorry about that mistake.
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Nafri
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Posted - 2005.08.07 21:44:00 -
[58]
pottsey, you still forget some facts:
unlike frigates, interceptors and aussault frigs dont have the CPU spare to fit shield extenders
you dont have a AB/MWD on this tristan, thats just a useless ship your flying
with a named PG well, who would fit a 10+ ¦million isk module on a tech1 frigate?
your experiments are null, cause you set the circumstances you want, you dont check what a frigate needs to do and then see what you can fit
you fit a ship to have maximum shields and then you see what you can fit else
Can you work out shield extended ceptors/aussault/frigates for the most important frigate roles?
Tacklers? Damage dealers? EW?
I have setups for all this roles, mostly including an armor plate, no setup includes a shield extender, although I have nearly maxed shield skills
Your bla bla hit bla bla for bla bla damage. Wanna have some bubu now? |
Zarquon Beeblebrox
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Posted - 2005.08.08 06:18:00 -
[59]
For as long as i can remember pottsey have been talking about her passive shield tank. And im sure she have found her use for it. But going around using your arguments against ballancing of plates and extenders is compleatly wrong of you. You basicly need to get your head out of the fiting screen and go PVP. None of the arguments you have made in any of this threads can pull its weight in a pvp enviroment.
Besides talking about shield/armour recharge on frigs in pvp is to laugh about. When you are the target you will not be able to repare your self out of the trouble. All that count is what your curent HP is and how many more shots you can take while alligning to warp.
Plates is so much better then shield extenders. When people like me and many more prefere plates on our ravens/scorps. This is not becouse we dont know better. Its becouse its proven over and over again its the best solution if total HP is in need.
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Lady Beeblebrox
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ELECTR0FREAK
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Posted - 2005.08.08 06:48:00 -
[60]
Edited by: ELECTR0FREAK on 08/08/2005 06:49:44
The issue is, small extenders are balanced fine versus 100mm plates, medium extenders versus 400mm plates, and large extenders versus 800mm plates (more or less). Problem is that plates get a doubled-HP version of each of the extenders, the 200mm plate, the 800mm plates, and the 1600mm plates. Fittings on these bigger plates are low enough that you can fit an intended cruiser plate onto a frigate and an intended battleship plate on a cruiser, while extenders cant (at least not with a decent setup).
So theres a few options. Introduce new extenders that perhaps still don't quite meet the HP of the 200,800, and 1600 plates, (remember how they add to shield recharge, and be used with other modules for more impressive results), and can still fit effectively (this might require lowering fitting reqs of current extenders).
OR, introduce a measure to prevent the fitting of oversize plates. I'd like to see a mass bonus added to plates that would essentially double the mass of any ship fitting an oversized plate. This would result in ships fitting an intended plate having a 10% (ex. 100mm plate) to 20% (ex. 200mm plate) mass increase. Remove the max speed penalty to be replaced by the new mass bonuses.
Thus, shield extenders would remain hard to fit but wouldn't reduce agility, while armor plates would have the capability of drastically increasing a ships HP at relatively low fitting cost, while sacrificing some of the ships agility. Thats what I'd like to see happen. (I mean, Caldari ships already have the most mass, this might actually make it fair for them, as a cruiser with a plate fitted would be around the mass of a Caldari cruiser with an extender fitted).
-Electrofreak
Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula |
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