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Nomen Nescio
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Posted - 2005.08.27 06:04:00 -
[31]
There should be no BPOs on tech3 EVER.
All agents should give limited BPC, not 1 run, BUT LIMITED. With unlimited BPO whoever gets it will run it forever - no competetion, no trade, no bpc market. Once a guy has it, thats it. With limited BPC you can have a lot of winners in a lottery, you can have aftermarket of BPC because a lot of ppl wont be able to build tech2 stuff they won BPC for. Price will be regulated by fair market, not by monopoly.
VOTE YES ON LIMIED TECH2 BPC ONLY
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without
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Posted - 2005.08.28 04:19:00 -
[32]
also the missions that the agents ask should give more than a days RP mabe a weeks RP
perhaps even ask scientific questiona nd give multiple choice answers and only hte correct oen gets u that days RP
lots of things can be done to make it interesting and a nice part of the game
but overall im still in favour of t2 BPC being sold by npc
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xOm3gAx
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Posted - 2005.08.28 05:14:00 -
[33]
Originally by: theRaptor Edited by: theRaptor on 12/08/2005 22:00:09 Yes and guristas arrogators should drop commander sieges.
EVE is not fair. Life is not fair. Get over it. The lottery will be done away with for T3 (which is supposed to be POS based), but until then it is staying because there are only a handful of items to handout.
P.S. Cap recharger 2 owners make a killing because a handful of people bought up all the dozens of BPO's when they came out because they where useless. Then CCP nerfed cap power relays, and suddenly cap recharger's where worth while.
theres 20 of each t2 bpo in ciruculation after the 20 mark has been hit no more are given out (a corp mate talked to a dev not long ago to find that out) ----------------- *Decloaks and starts blasting your sig* Applesauce Biotch
Ok who nerf batted my sig >again<? *^^Bows^^* ^^ALL HAIL THE UBERNESS OF Thee^^
Succumb to your nightmares Darkness |
Mode Six
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Posted - 2005.08.29 15:27:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Leneerra If they'd just get the t2 bpo that are in inactive acounts and redistribute those if the account is cancelled. that would improve matters somewhat I guess
And then in 3 months when the person resubscribes, they no longer have those items, freak out, and quit altogether. Not a good idea at all, myself being a player who takes 2-3 month breaks from time to time.
Originally by: Vampire Blade
why can't i get an automatic WTFPWN bomb? i hate it that i have to actually pay attention during PVP, everytime someone shot at me the WTFPWN bomb would go off and they die. |
Somatic Neuron
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Posted - 2005.08.29 17:14:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Somatic Neuron on 29/08/2005 17:14:55 No, the thing that kills the T1 producers is the insane amount of T1 loot that drops from Agent Missions and NPC kills. These are zero loss items for the looter to pickup and sell, yet they destroy our T1 market, as we cannot compete against below cost items such as these.
Note: This only affects non-ship related items...
Now, if CCP came up with a way to get rid of the NPC loot drops that were not Meta (i.e. Loot only drops if a meta module were to be selected from the loot table), then it would help T1 producers significantly.
Regardless of how many T2 BPO were out there of a given type, you would still only bring it down to a certain point above the cost to build, as all of them have to be built by players (which is fine). Capital Ships Production Forum |
Delfina
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Posted - 2005.08.31 17:43:00 -
[36]
Originally by: theRaptor No. In real life a company would get a patent monopoly on an invention for fifteen odd years.
No... in real life, another company would be secretly researching a copy-cat product and release it soon after the first, and yet a 3rd company would file an anti-trust lawsuit against the monopoly. ;)
Either: 1) 2x the number of T2 BPOs should have been seeded 2) only T2 BPCs of a random 1 - 100 runs should have been used instead of BPOs, and of course more of them seeded. ----------------------------------------------- Better, stronger, & smarter than you! Who cares about good looks :P |
Gronsak
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Posted - 2005.09.01 03:17:00 -
[37]
just out of interest does anyone that isnt UBER rich fit t2 mods onto a t1 frig
assume we are talking about say a incurus
and want to fit 3x 150 or 125mm rails = 3*1.5 mil = 4.5mil scram web MWD t2 = free + free + 4mil mag stab in low and a MAPC = 1.75mil
thats a total of 10mil isk on a ship that costs 200k isk thats just plane wrong
same thing is also true for crusiers and BC
u cant relly fit t2 onto t1 as the mods on the ship cost more htan 10x the ship
just let NPC sell t2 BPO: ull **** off 1% of eve t2 manufacturers but make 99% happy
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Hawk Firestorm
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Posted - 2005.09.01 12:23:00 -
[38]
The market and research was borked it it's design from the get go, fortunately I think ccp are finally getting there heads around this, and some mumblings are starting to appear about possibly changing things for the next tech level.
Least I hope, I've also heard they are thinking about doing a lotto to release extras, though I'm not too keen on this one as it's basically another fudge not a fix.
Price controls on the market is definately the way to go I think in the short term, even perhaps releasing older T2 designs into the public demain to put proper competition in and forge forward to redesign how research functions in game for the next tech level that incorporates usuers skill levels.
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Zophi
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Posted - 2005.09.01 12:39:00 -
[39]
Edited by: Zophi on 01/09/2005 12:40:55 Take a look boys: http://myeve.eve-online.com/updates/plannedfeat.asp
Quote: Monthly Auction of Tech 2 Blueprint Originals
Every month, one of each T2 BPO is put on auction. Minimum bids would range from 5-50 billion depending on type of BPO. If nobody bids, it means the market has sufficient supply and the single BPO stays, if many start bidding, the price should regulate itself towards profitability. Once a months should also stem the influx meaning a limit of 12 new BPO's pr. year through this route of every type. This would of course be in addition to other ways of acquiring T2 BPO's. Requires Contracts.
The devs have a very good solution to the problem. I like it a lot! --- "Why can't we all just get along?" |
without
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Posted - 2005.09.01 14:54:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Zophi Edited by: Zophi on 01/09/2005 12:40:55 Take a look boys: http://myeve.eve-online.com/updates/plannedfeat.asp
Quote: Monthly Auction of Tech 2 Blueprint Originals
Every month, one of each T2 BPO is put on auction. Minimum bids would range from 5-50 billion depending on type of BPO. If nobody bids, it means the market has sufficient supply and the single BPO stays, if many start bidding, the price should regulate itself towards profitability. Once a months should also stem the influx meaning a limit of 12 new BPO's pr. year through this route of every type. This would of course be in addition to other ways of acquiring T2 BPO's. Requires Contracts.
The devs have a very good solution to the problem. I like it a lot!
how does that help at all, if it brings in more BPO into the game then its a good idea
but the point is who are the only ppl that will be the winning bidders? yes the t2 manufacturers, who will buy the BPO for 25bil isk or more , and pass the cost onto us
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Selak Zorander
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Posted - 2005.09.01 19:05:00 -
[41]
you cant look at insurance payout on a tech 2 ship and think that is the actual build cost. Why? the moon material values in the data base that are used in determining that price are so low that every POS would be a huge isk sink at those values.
2 isk a piece for atmospheric gas...at a rate of 100 per hour does not even come close to the fuel burned by the POS.
Thats 4800 isk a day and a decent POS burns 8 to 9 mil in fuel a day...
Tech 2 insurance is bad because of that simple fact. Until fuel costs are accounted for in those prices there is no way tech 2 insurance will come close to ship build costs.
For instance I had the pleasure of building off a muninn print for a while. At below market rates and finding the cheapest materials I could, it cost me around 40 to 45 mil to make the ship. what is insurance pay out on a HAC 15 to 20mil? with all tech 2 ships and most equipment you can not look at database values or insurance values and assume that is the build cost.
Only one item that fits the category of database price and build price being relatively close. That is the Miner 2 since it uses nothing but minerals to build.
Yes some tech 2 over priced (some HACs, a few of the transport ships) and some is way over priced (cap recharger 2), but not all of it is.
Do I think some prices need to come down? Yes. Do I think a tech 2 ship can be built at or under insurance payout? Nope, never going to happen unless the value of the moon materials is increased to a more reasonable value in the database.
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Zophi
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Posted - 2005.09.02 11:52:00 -
[42]
Originally by: without
how does that help at all, if it brings in more BPO into the game then its a good idea
but the point is who are the only ppl that will be the winning bidders? yes the t2 manufacturers, who will buy the BPO for 25bil isk or more , and pass the cost onto us
Well, imho it has no difference from adding more BPOs to the lottery. Why? Well, many BPO's are sold by the lottery winner. Only difference is that CCP will earn the 25B not some lucky player. BPO cost will still be added to product price, but copetition will go up so in the long run it will bring prices down. --- "Why can't we all just get along?" |
Zophi
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Posted - 2005.09.02 12:47:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Nomen Nescio
Price will be regulated by fair market, not by monopoly.
Exept from the cap II there ARE no monopolies in the T2 market. It IS a regualted fair market. Competition in T2 market is quite hard actually. But not idiotic like the T1 market is...
T3 should imho be based around freely availeble BPO's, but require rare and nearly impossible to get components. (Well ultimately it should have products that had quality based on the qualty of the components you choose to build from, but that impossible in the engine as it is now.)Logistics should set the limits. This would kill the lottery, without killing the market.
The insta ISK's for the lottery winners is the TRUE unfair problem of the current system.
--- "Why can't we all just get along?" |
callisthenes excelsior
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Posted - 2005.09.04 22:15:00 -
[44]
I guess it would be nice if the people who run the game could actually post to forums as at least a fact check. For a game this size to run with so little input from this is kinda odd.
But my question is this--with the tech ii market pretty much in shambles, is there any reason for a new player to become a researcher as a way of really making a lot of ISK or at least making a profitable career out of it?
I think it would be a shame if the line of 'researcher' was basicly dead for new players.
Also, there is so much talk that the BPOs are given out unfairly...
Do people think the tech2 dessies, bc, and bs will be given out in a fair lottery system?
If there are 20 copies of each one as someone said about, then you have 16 times 20 or 320 new BP for all these new ships? Am I right in thinking about it this way?
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callisthenes excelsior
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Posted - 2005.09.04 22:15:00 -
[45]
I guess it would be nice if the people who run the game could actually post to forums as at least a fact check. For a game this size to run with so little input from this is kinda odd.
But my question is this--with the tech ii market pretty much in shambles, is there any reason for a new player to become a researcher as a way of really making a lot of ISK or at least making a profitable career out of it?
I think it would be a shame if the line of 'researcher' was basicly dead for new players.
Also, there is so much talk that the BPOs are given out unfairly...
Do people think the tech2 dessies, bc, and bs will be given out in a fair lottery system?
If there are 20 copies of each one as someone said about, then you have 16 times 20 or 320 new BP for all these new ships? Am I right in thinking about it this way?
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Zophi
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Posted - 2005.09.05 06:27:00 -
[46]
Originally by: callisthenes excelsior
If there are 20 copies of each one as someone said about, then you have 16 times 20 or 320 new BP for all these new ships? Am I right in thinking about it this way?
You got it right. They will not be released all at once though, but over a coupple of months.
Take the number af T2 items/ships in game and multiply that woith 20 and you will find that there actually is quite a number of T2 BPO's in the game. Many of them arent really worth a lot though... --- "Why can't we all just get along?" |
Rod Blaine
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Posted - 2005.09.05 13:44:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Kelgen Thann I still think that production cost should dictate how many BPO's are released.
If something is cheaper it should be more common. at the moment the difference in release volumes between ships and mods is neglible.
Is it ?
I distinctly recall that a dev told us that of the more common and cheap items many many more bpo's have been seeded. The market seems to support that if you look around well.
Where does your wisdom come from ? _______________________________________________
Yes yes, blogging is passÚ I know. Rod's Ramblingz on Eve-Online Solutions to your issues. |
Zophi
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Posted - 2005.09.06 06:31:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Rod Blaine
Originally by: Kelgen Thann I still think that production cost should dictate how many BPO's are released.
If something is cheaper it should be more common. at the moment the difference in release volumes between ships and mods is neglible.
Is it ?
I distinctly recall that a dev told us that of the more common and cheap items many many more bpo's have been seeded. The market seems to support that if you look around well.
Where does your wisdom come from ?
There is not a difference in the number of BPO's released. The factor that make it work anyways, dear sirs, is a small thing called "production time". You can make a gazillion modules in the same time frame it takes to build a ship. Number og BPO have nothing to do with how many items of the final procuct can be produced. In most cases two-three module producers underbidding the rest is enough to bring down the market. A fact that makes the Cap II traders all the more impressive, be course none of them are underbidding thus keeping the price up. That takes diciplin. --- "Why can't we all just get along?" |
Ashraaf
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Posted - 2005.09.06 07:28:00 -
[49]
Problem is that some BPO dissapear with account close? Problem is monopoly by corp (Cap recharger)? Problem is 20 bpo for 10000 is Ok but not for 14000
Actually there's more and more player. Maybe the lotto could offer BPO, Limited BPO, BPC. Ifa BPO disappear, after 6 month, make it available. For 1000/2000 more player offer 1 new BPO (Online player not account)
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Zophi
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Posted - 2005.09.07 14:09:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Ashraaf Problem is that some BPO dissapear with account close? Problem is monopoly by corp (Cap recharger)? Problem is 20 bpo for 10000 is Ok but not for 14000
Actually there's more and more player. Maybe the lotto could offer BPO, Limited BPO, BPC. Ifa BPO disappear, after 6 month, make it available. For 1000/2000 more player offer 1 new BPO (Online player not account)
The CCP proposed system of them auctioning extra BPO's beats adding them to the lottery. The lottery is an evil inveted to get around the fact that if they make a SURE way to get a BPO, people WILL get them. (Remember the Miner II BPO & Shield Amplifier I BPO fiasco.) Papa Smurf did admit to that it was a kinda "lesser evil" solution to how to get T2 BPO's in the game.
They should have gone with NPC auctions instead from the very start. --- "Why can't we all just get along?" |
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HighlanderUK
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Posted - 2005.09.07 17:41:00 -
[51]
As well as fixing the T2 lottery, they need, as many have said before, fix the damn T2 ship insurance problem......its an absolute disgrace.
Secondly, they should get their finger out, and seed the missing tech 1 BPOs, for goodness sake, its been a few years now, and we are still waiting for NPC markets with Medium Hull Rep (small and large been out for ages), Shield Amp 1, Expanded Cargo 1 and quite a few others.
Yes CCP need to give a little more care and attention to us manufacturers/producers. ********************* The Flying Scotsman * ********************* |
Fiodore Nevesky
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Posted - 2005.09.16 03:13:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Rod Blaine
Originally by: Kelgen Thann I still think that production cost should dictate how many BPO's are released.
If something is cheaper it should be more common. at the moment the difference in release volumes between ships and mods is neglible.
Is it ?
I distinctly recall that a dev told us that of the more common and cheap items many many more bpo's have been seeded. The market seems to support that if you look around well.
Where does your wisdom come from ?
Where do u get ur infro from ??? comics?
only 3 corps sell zealots and on a monoploy of 100 or 75 mill with minmum 55 days waiting list?
Cap recharger example is overused so i wont mention it , imo i still think leaving market in the hands of players creates the usual RL monopoly but thats just me , but seriosuly the R&D game just sucks big time and meaningless for a 1 year R&D agent runner not to get any bpos at all !!!!!!
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Serge Nova
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Posted - 2005.09.16 13:41:00 -
[53]
The foolish thing about BPO releases is that big alliances gobble up the BPO for private usage. That does two things; 1. It makes the 1-2 people with the last few BPO's f'ing rich. 2. Makes prices high for everyone else.
GTG.
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Ashraaf
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Posted - 2005.09.16 14:19:00 -
[54]
Auction is not imo the solution
Actually i knew some people who have TII Bpo, and they made far more money than me. In auction for a BPO i'm no match for them. Same as Naga and my corp. So only those who have a BPO could complete or run for monopoly
Reseach system is good at start of eve, but actually i'm not sure
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Shaemell Buttleson
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Posted - 2005.09.16 17:09:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Caeden Nicomachean I'm not defending the lottery system, but its rather obvious comments such as the above are made by consumers who goggle at the T2 items pricetag. In some instances (occator), sure. But compare 1400IIs to 1400 scouts.
Do a little thinking about it, or try producing T1 for a couple of weeks. Note the waste of time margins. Then consider whether there needs to be a high barrier to entry to some blueprints.
I want to repeat again - try producing T1 items, such as battleships for a couple of weeks. Without mining the minerals.
PVP pilot is not the only career in the game. Neither is miner.
Comments like this are more often than not made by those who have been lucky enough to get the T2 BPO's or have mates with them they can benefit from!
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Nicoli Voldkif
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Posted - 2005.09.17 17:54:00 -
[56]
I like the idea of the lotto and the limited amount of BPOs. However I think that BPCs should be constantly offered up on the Lotto. My thought is that 1-3 BPC of each items with enough runs to keep it manufacturing for a month or 1500 runs be introduced every month. You'll get the choice to either take the BPCs or pass and keep your RPs. This allows more chances for people to get in on the market.
Now by limiting this to 3 extra producers of a T2 Item per month this should help limit the price gouging of some items. The more reasonable priced items will not be effected much as they are reasonable priced compared to cost of manufacture.
Hopefully the quicker turn around on the BPC means that the lottery will be used more often and there will be more times to win, which is good. Also with more producers the demand for moon minerals will be higher, which is good. Prices on T2 will vary more depending on how smart the winners are for the BPCs, which is good. If someone stupidly undercuts the price then the BPO holders can always hold ont their items till the price restabilizes. This also spreads the wealth around so that 3 additional people can produce the items though it will only be for a short time.
Anybody care to provide some constructive critisem on this idea so I can tweak it?
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Drew Kelly
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Posted - 2005.09.18 19:16:00 -
[57]
why not have a system where if you spend say 4 months doing research on a t1 bpo u have the chance of the t1 bpo turning into a t2 bpo? With the time that would slowly introduce more t2 bpos into the market, but it would still take a long time to do it. I always thought it would be cool if ccp put t2 items in the game but only the players could introduce the game into those items by research(alot of research).
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Cal'Gorath
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Posted - 2005.09.18 20:39:00 -
[58]
another thing to consider is when this whole system was designed, including the number of T2 prints to be released, the population on Eve was about a third of what it is now. You have ALOT more peeps with ALOT more RP's out there. You also have a much higher demand for the products as more people are using them.
My problem with the whole manufacturing thing is that once you train PE to lvl 5 you're a master builder. Someone with a month play time is jsut as good at making T1 items as I am after a year. How about a manufacturing specialization? People that have the skill make ships a little better than Joe Blow that started last week.
The whole auction idea for T2 prints is a joke. The only ones that will be able to afford them are current T2 print holders and will spend vast amounts of isk to buy duplicate prints of what they already have to reduce competition...yeah, that'll get alot more into circulation.
All in all, manufacturing anything other than basic ships and mods is becoming a rich persons hobby. Billions of isk for a blueprint, vast amounts of minerals to build them..Unless you get "lucky" and recieve an elusive T2 print, you will never be able to break into the market and make a name for yourself, no matter how many skills you have or how long you play the game. Great incentive for people isnt it?
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Xarnece
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Posted - 2005.09.18 20:43:00 -
[59]
oops, posted with alt above
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skitszo
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Posted - 2005.09.18 23:26:00 -
[60]
signed..........needs overhaul.
doing the daily missions needs to have some BPC rewards.
that is all.
peace... out..
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