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Vishnej
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Posted - 2005.08.16 18:10:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Vishnej on 16/08/2005 18:11:33
A large barge is currently very close in effectiveness to the best battleship miners. Barges are too weak to mine good ores alone, and have a major risk and skill expenditure entailed in getting them. That teamwork should come with more of an advantage advantage in terms of yield over a solo BS miner.
I propose another barge with a bit more dronebay/cargohold/structure/cpu and 4 mining lasers.
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HippoKing
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Posted - 2005.08.16 18:11:00 -
[2]
capital barge miner 
5 strips
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Chrysantheum
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Posted - 2005.08.16 18:34:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: Vishnej
Edited by: Vishnej on 16/08/2005 18:11:33
A large barge is currently very close in effectiveness to the best battleship miners. Barges are too weak to mine good ores alone, and have a major risk and skill expenditure entailed in getting them. That teamwork should come with more of an advantage advantage in terms of yield over a solo BS miner.
I propose another barge with a bit more dronebay/cargohold/structure/cpu and 4 mining lasers.
A large barge is better than ANY bs miner... except maybe a T1 strip miner barge going against an apoc with 8 T2 DCM + proper T2 mining crystals.... Drones between the Apoc and Large barge dont matter as both have enough drone space to field 10 mining drones of any type.
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Noriath
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Posted - 2005.08.16 18:42:00 -
[4]
The margin is still to small to make up for the lost tanking ability, and also it can't carry a wing of combat drones...
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Vishnej
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Posted - 2005.08.16 18:43:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Vishnej on 16/08/2005 18:46:06
Better, but not much better - not enough to justify spending an extra combat battleship dedicated to tanking in a 0.0 op, for example.
A minerpoc with 8 MDCM2's does 640 base m3 per minute - 240*8/3.
A large barge with SM2's does 720 base m3 per minute - 720*3/3.
An XL barge would allow the specialized mining ship that pops when you sneeze at it to pull its own weight in a gang. Move the coveter down to astrogeol4, and bring this in at 5.
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Vishnej
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Posted - 2005.08.16 18:49:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Vishnej on 16/08/2005 18:50:24
And regarding the cap ships devoted to industry - I wrote up a post considering it, but by the end I can't figure a way to give it enough reward for being a cap ship without unbalancing things, and a mobile refining array can do anything that a large tower hauled in just for that purpose can do. Keeping the barges in their own class seems like a good course of action for now, they just need the best barge to be above and beyond a BS miner.
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Sentani
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Posted - 2005.08.16 19:11:00 -
[7]
i totaly agree with you..... kick the large barge down a notch (barg4) and boost the vanila barge up abit cap and HP wise...
takes 25 days to get barge5 and another 25 for astrogeo5
(for me atleast) and we should get something more outoff it...
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Captin Biltmore
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Posted - 2005.08.16 19:25:00 -
[8]
I am not a miner, I am a pretty much 100% PVP player (which reminds me I need to make some more isk for more pvp) so here are my thoughts:
We DO need an XL mining barge. There is very little difference in a maxed out apoc miner and a maxed out coveter miner. This doesn't make too much sense to me. Seems as though a specilized mining ship should easly outmine a BS converted to mine. Also, as more and more people are signing up and playing eve we are having an increased demand for minerals whith not much supply increase. This isn't taking into account the new capital ships and their CRAZY min requirements. Most of the ships that are requiring these crazy ammounts of minerals are using a LOT of Trit and Pye.
Why not have XL mining barges that are available to only .5+ space (at least for a while). It'll increase the supply of the much demanded low ends while not throwing the ballance of high end min's totally out of wack. Heck, you could make a lev 10 skill that you train to allow you to take the thing into lower sec space. Each lev of the skill lets you take the XL Barge down 1 level lower in sec status systems. So at lev 5 you can go to 0.0 with this UBER XL Barge.
Just a PVPr's thoughts.
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Captin Biltmore
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Posted - 2005.08.16 19:31:00 -
[9]
Hey, want some role playing added too? Lets say these XL Barges are a threat to NPC Pirates abiility to obtain enough minerals for their needs. So when you jump into that low sec system an NPC group would spawn on jump in and instafrag your XL Barge.
Call the skill NPC Mining Relations. So the higher you have the skill trained the lower you could go in system sec without having a spawn jump you and instapop your ship!!
Another bonus....this would fall under a carisma skill (a much unused attribute) and possibly increase the value of those mission runners carisma implants!!! Bonus's all around.
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Hunding
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Posted - 2005.08.16 19:47:00 -
[10]
Im a hardcore Industy char. Large Barge and DCMII Apoc 4tw!
and the depravity between the two makes me cry. infact. its about 8-10% difference in mining yield, with a quantum leap in defence between the two.
I like the above posts idea of the limitation of XL barges.... might be a nice sibling bonus to the newly added frighter 
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Rexthor Hammerfists
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Posted - 2005.08.16 20:05:00 -
[11]
why not give Barges a group mining bonus, like 10% per Barge in a gang.
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Vishnej
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Posted - 2005.08.16 20:07:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Vishnej on 16/08/2005 20:18:36
What would that achieve? And why? I can't really think of a reasonable backstory to accomodate that, nor a gameplay reason why a bunch of barges should have an inherently larger mining yield than they would solo.
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Troezar
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Posted - 2005.08.16 20:12:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Troezar on 16/08/2005 20:13:06
We need barges to have a much higher mining rate to help encourage pvp. Why you ask? As it will mean more minerals more reasonably priced = cheaper ships which people are more willing to lose.
Must be a winning solution all round, any maybe even get more folks out into 0.0
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Will Basthard
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Posted - 2005.08.16 20:12:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Will Basthard on 16/08/2005 20:12:34
If you can convince the DEVS to make XL Barges I will throw in this idea.
Make it so that we can take a standard or faction BS platform, and convert it to a XL Barge. IE we get a standard 250 drone space, 3 mids 4 highs and 4 lows, 1200 pgrid and 2000 armor.
I would love to have a Machariel looking XL Barge.
------
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LUKEC
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Posted - 2005.08.16 20:17:00 -
[15]
Yup, large barge should outmine any other ship for like 30%.
This is not... nerf the bs miners or anything. Maybe changing 3% bonus / barge lvl to 5% would be fair. This would make also medium barges semi useful.
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fairimear
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Posted - 2005.08.16 20:20:00 -
[16]
as long as they can only be used in lowsec and have to use a jumpdrive to move even 1 system
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Chrysantheum
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Posted - 2005.08.16 20:23:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Vishnej
Edited by: Vishnej on 16/08/2005 18:46:06
Better, but not much better - not enough to justify spending an extra combat battleship dedicated to tanking in a 0.0 op, for example.
A minerpoc with 8 MDCM2's does 640 base m3 per minute - 240*8/3.
A large barge with SM2's does 720 base m3 per minute - 720*3/3.
An XL barge would allow the specialized mining ship that pops when you sneeze at it to pull its own weight in a gang. Move the coveter down to astrogeol4, and bring this in at 5.
Barge pilot in a large barge also gets a 10% bonus from the barge skill alone
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Captin Biltmore
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Posted - 2005.08.16 20:26:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Chrysantheum
Originally by: Vishnej
Edited by: Vishnej on 16/08/2005 18:46:06
Better, but not much better - not enough to justify spending an extra combat battleship dedicated to tanking in a 0.0 op, for example.
A minerpoc with 8 MDCM2's does 640 base m3 per minute - 240*8/3.
A large barge with SM2's does 720 base m3 per minute - 720*3/3.
An XL barge would allow the specialized mining ship that pops when you sneeze at it to pull its own weight in a gang. Move the coveter down to astrogeol4, and bring this in at 5.
Barge pilot in a large barge also gets a 10% bonus from the barge skill alone
That calc includes the 10% bonus for large barge operation.....
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Vishnej
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Posted - 2005.08.16 22:48:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Vishnej on 16/08/2005 22:49:20
No, it wasn't - overlooked that part.
A 15% bonus @ lev5 does negate my point a bit... but I still think a 4 turret barge is a good idea, for the same reasons, as well as to accelerate ship production with the introduction of bigger ships.
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Randay
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Posted - 2005.08.17 00:13:00 -
[20]
just wait for t2 mining barges.
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Mercade
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Posted - 2005.08.17 01:45:00 -
[21]
There's a pretty big difference I think in a Covetor and an Apoc. Let's take a look.
Mining 5, Astro 5, Barge 5, Strip I = per pull every 180sec
540*1.25*1.25*1.15 = 970.31m3 per laser
Strip II with Tech 2 crystal
360*1.75*1.25*1.25*1.15 = 1132m3 per laser
Apoc with Miner II max skill every 60 sec
60*1.25*1.25 = 93.75 per laser
Apoc with DCM II with Tech 2 crystal every 180 sec
120*1.75*1.25*1.25 = 328.125 per laser per 3min
With that in mind it compares at
Covetor T1 = 2910.93 every 3min
Covetor T2 = 3396 every 3min
Apoc T1 = 750/min = 2250 every 3min
apoc T2 = 2625m3 every 3 minutes
Now I hear people argue there isn't much difference there.. true if you are mining veldspar but lasers are like buckets used to haul dirt sand or rocks. If you fill it with sand you get a maximum usage of your volume. But if you fill with gravel it's reduced as there is air space and if you fill with small boulders you lose even more. As valuable rocks like Bistot and crokite are 16m3 a unit and lasers don't round up, it's important to look at the actual unit total over a period of time. let's compare.
Covetor T1 = 970.31/16 = 60 units/laser/3min = 180units every 3min
Covetor T2 = 1132/16 = 70 units/laser/3min = 210units every 3min
Apoc = 93.75/16 = 5 units/laser/min = 40units/min = 120 units every 3min
Apoc T2 = 328.125/16 = 20units/laser/3min = 160 units every 3min
or
Covetor T1 = 180 units
Covetor T2 = 210 units
Apoc T1 = 120 Units
Apoc T2 = 160 units
So when minig Veldspar
Covetor T1 > Apoc T1 = 2910.93/2250 = 29.37% Better
Covetor T2 > Apoc T2 = 3396/2625 = 29.37% Better
while on Crokite
Covetor T1 > Apoc T1 = 180/120 = 50% Better!
Covetor T2 > Apoc T2 = 210/160 = 31.25% Better!
Thus it becomes obvious the benefit of longer duration lasers with higher volume pulls and how the mathmatics is applicable only per the ore type. The DCM2's really are a must have for an Apoc miner in low security as they make a massive difference catch up, almost bringing it on part with the difference mining low ends.
pointless math with no plot or opinion finished. =)
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Captin Biltmore
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Posted - 2005.08.17 02:17:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Mercade
There's a pretty big difference I think in a Covetor and an Apoc. Let's take a look.
Mining 5, Astro 5, Barge 5, Strip I = per pull every 180sec
540*1.25*1.25*1.15 = 970.31m3 per laser
Strip II with Tech 2 crystal
360*1.75*1.25*1.25*1.15 = 1132m3 per laser
Apoc with Miner II max skill every 60 sec
60*1.25*1.25 = 93.75 per laser
Apoc with DCM II with Tech 2 crystal every 180 sec
120*1.75*1.25*1.25 = 328.125 per laser per 3min
With that in mind it compares at
Covetor T1 = 2910.93 every 3min
Covetor T2 = 3396 every 3min
Apoc T1 = 750/min = 2250 every 3min
apoc T2 = 2625m3 every 3 minutes
Now I hear people argue there isn't much difference there.. true if you are mining veldspar but lasers are like buckets used to haul dirt sand or rocks. If you fill it with sand you get a maximum usage of your volume. But if you fill with gravel it's reduced as there is air space and if you fill with small boulders you lose even more. As valuable rocks like Bistot and crokite are 16m3 a unit and lasers don't round up, it's important to look at the actual unit total over a period of time. let's compare.
Covetor T1 = 970.31/16 = 60 units/laser/3min = 180units every 3min
Covetor T2 = 1132/16 = 70 units/laser/3min = 210units every 3min
Apoc = 93.75/16 = 5 units/laser/min = 40units/min = 120 units every 3min
Apoc T2 = 328.125/16 = 20units/laser/3min = 160 units every 3min
or
Covetor T1 = 180 units
Covetor T2 = 210 units
Apoc T1 = 120 Units
Apoc T2 = 160 units
So when minig Veldspar
Covetor T1 > Apoc T1 = 2910.93/2250 = 29.37% Better
Covetor T2 > Apoc T2 = 3396/2625 = 29.37% Better
while on Crokite
Covetor T1 > Apoc T1 = 180/120 = 50% Better!
Covetor T2 > Apoc T2 = 210/160 = 31.25% Better!
Thus it becomes obvious the benefit of longer duration lasers with higher volume pulls and how the mathmatics is applicable only per the ore type. The DCM2's really are a must have for an Apoc miner in low security as they make a massive difference catch up, almost bringing it on part with the difference mining low ends.
pointless math with no plot or opinion finished. =)
Now THAT is a useful post!!
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Tulia
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Posted - 2005.08.17 03:28:00 -
[23]
Impressive numbers. Nice work on that, makes the barge seem slightly worth the multiple months I am putting into training it.
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Watson
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Posted - 2005.08.17 04:07:00 -
[24]
Originally by: HippoKing
capital barge miner 5 strips
I'm sure someone will turn a Moros and its 35 drones into an ore machine out in 0.0 one of these days just b/c they can.  |
Ralitge boyter
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Posted - 2005.08.17 07:54:00 -
[25]
People read the devs posts:
Quote:
Needful Things for Mining
We should add some simple improvements for Mining which are already available for various combat situations. Things like Implants, Leadership Skills/Modules, Tech 2 barges, new skills and perhaps even new modules!
They are going to release all this stuff... soonÖ
Sure it will take them a while but they are building it as we speak. XL barge would be what a TITAN with 7 XL astroid scoops on it, (each one capable of scooping a whole astroid at a time every 10 minutes (faster with skils of course))
I don't think we will see a barge that beats the BS miners in sensability (a BS just lasts those presious few seconds longer when you run into unfriendly rocks) anytime soon but the CCP seems to have seen that a change needs to be made.
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Okkie
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Posted - 2005.08.17 09:58:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Ralitge boyter
I don't think we will see a barge that beats the BS miners in sensability (a BS just lasts those presious few seconds longer when you run into unfriendly rocks) anytime soon but the CCP seems to have seen that a change needs to be made.
I've mined for several weeks in 0.0 alone with a retreiver and never lost a single ship. Just always make sure you are aligned for warp and at speed. If you make sure the barge is as slow as possible and you start mining a roid, it's hold will be full before you are out of range of the roid. Empty this in a jetcan and switch to the next roid, turn around and align again. Repeat this a few times, get your hauler and you're done.
If there's a spawn you can be easily out of the belt before they hit you. Only prob with a spawn is it has to be killed before you can haul/mine but with an Apoc you've got this same prob when really fitted for mining.
It takes some coordination to do it right, but the main advantage is it makes mining even fun
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