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Kwisat Haderach
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Posted - 2005.08.17 23:57:00 -
[1]
In regards to the discussions that Khatred had today on the blueprint channel and references done in some threads regarding to us.
As far as our implication in Tech 1 ships goes (battleships and battlecruisers), we did and do try to dominate the Heimatar area and battle our competitors in buying minerals and selling ships.
But when it comes to tech 2 ships, we don't intend to compete with anyone. First of all, we will have rules that in a short time will reduce our possible customer base to probably a half.
Second, we are not playing the supply/demand game. Our ships will be priced according only to production costs and production time. While it might seem stupid to ignore the supply/demand issue, we consider that the Tech 2 ships area doesn't have a healthy supply (for some ships there should be around 5-6 more bpos in game, while other Tech 2 ships need to be brought in line with their alternatives)
Every producer choosed his own path. Some opted for waiting lists, some to sell for higher prices . We choosed our own model. I don't see why can't we all continue to follow our models since Tech 2 doesn't have the fierce battles that can end with eliminating the competition (been there, done that in Tech 1)
Life is a joke, but I don't feel like laughing |
Caeden Nicomachean
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Posted - 2005.08.18 01:49:00 -
[2]
First, I donÆt have a T2 ship BPO, and really only got interested in you when I saw some folks talking about the sitch in Rens. I donÆt build battleships. No axes to grind, just informational here û and PR prior to a launch wonÆt hurt ya.
As many of you know, Khatred/Kwisat here produce battleships/battlecruisers in Pator. He places 6-10 for sale of pretty much every ship, with slim margins on each. Prices as much as ten mil below everyone else - its true economy of scale.
As he alluded to, he has driven most folks who do build BCs/B1s/B2s in Heim out of business. Good for him, there are plenty of regions for other folks to move into û but thatÆs his modus operandi for better or worse.
HeÆs been on a T2 journey for quite some time it seems, and is about to launch with a print for every T2 ship in the game. From his bio:
 Quote:
Estimated prices at launch, nothing is set in
stone:
All interceptors: 8 mil
All AF's but Harpy/Enyo: 10 mil
Harpy/Enyo: 11 mil
All Covert Ops: 8 mil
All Stealth Bombers but Manticore: 10 mil
Manticore: 12 mil
All Blockade Runners: 30 mil
All Transport Ships but Occator: 50mil
Occator: 52 mil
All Logistics: 30 mil
Sacrilege/Zealot: 62 mil
Cerberus/Eagle: 61 mil
Deimos: 65 mil
Ishtar: 60 mil
Vagabond/Muninn: 58 mil
Competitive prices, for sure.
Now, no one BPO of any type can scratch the overall demand in Eveàbut if his track record in Heim is any indication, I think there will be ripples û especially in the areas where one BPO can dig into the demand, like support vessels. Occator @ 52, transplant waiting lists.
What a heck of an achievement we are looking at here.
Quote:
I don't see why can't we all continue to follow our models since Tech 2 doesn't have the fierce battles that can end with eliminating the competition (been there, done that in Tech 1)
Will a price war ensue? Were they bound to happen with less liquidity, or is it just just odd timing that LV completed their T2 list at this time?
I don't know, but I do know - as does Kwisat by his statements, that undecutting is hardcore competition. He knows what he is doing here 
Another thing. Unlike ECM modules, T2 ships may have vast elasticity. Occators are a damned good example of this. Many just elect to not buy the things, but @ 52 they would. HACs and the like I don't think are near as elastic...basically the Occator serves as an excellent advetisment for the rest of his line, with the result being concentrated sales - not a revolutionizing movement. Business.
Interesting stuff dude. Quite an accomplishment.
Cheers!
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Zaldiri
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Posted - 2005.08.18 09:08:00 -
[3]
How will you stop people buying and reselling for a higher price?
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Admiral of King Frieza's Super Saiyan fleet.
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Krashtest
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Posted - 2005.08.18 11:09:00 -
[4]
He has chosen to sell ships at what he thinks is a fair markup for his troubles. Every ship sold ad then resold is still originally sold by him at a price he feels comfortable with accepting.
Only drawback i can see is him being approached to supply 1 entity will vast number , potentially a reseller, and leaving fewer for general public to buy. If he chooses to not get locked into a long term high volume deal, and only sells on market , then there is no worry.
Your Mega Afocal Pulse Maser I perfectly strikes Asteroid (Veldspar) [R0ME], wrecking for 798.3 damage.
Your 425mm Railgun I perfectly strikes Guardian Captain, wrecking for 685.9 damage.
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Lacero Callrisian
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Posted - 2005.08.18 11:26:00 -
[5]
50M for all transport ships isn't that competitive.
It's very good for Occators and Impels, but for ones like Bustards and Cranes it's either normal, or very high.
I'm sure he'll change those prices before he starts selling them though :)
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Khatred
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Posted - 2005.08.18 11:37:00 -
[6]
I'll take the PR from here  :
Zaldiri: First by limiting the amount of ships one can buy. Second by monitoring most trade channels, escrow and forums, an obvious reseller will meet our blacklist very quick
Krashtest: Ships will be sold on our "about to be ready" webshop.
Lacero: Transport Ships are Occator,Impel, Mastodon and Bustard while Crane and the others are Blockade Runners, thus listed as such in my bio  . And yes, 50 mil is the usual price for a Bustard nowdays but all 4 transport ships cost about the same to manufacture.
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Jacque Custeau
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Posted - 2005.08.18 13:39:00 -
[7]
Pator eh? Well I have been making Muninns here much longer than you have. Let's see who can go the lowest and still make a profit.
Begun, the price wars have
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Khatred
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Posted - 2005.08.18 13:59:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Khatred on 18/08/2005 14:00:51
Originally by: Jacque Custeau
Pator eh? Well I have been making Muninns here much longer than you have. Let's see who can go the lowest and still make a profit.
Begun, the price wars have
Joe, you were right  . And there's no cure for this.
Oh and Jacque, I am sorry to burst your bubble but we never sold HAC's on market.
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Jacque Custeau
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Posted - 2005.08.18 14:04:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Khatred
Edited by: Khatred on 18/08/2005 14:00:51
Originally by: Jacque Custeau
Pator eh? Well I have been making Muninns here much longer than you have. Let's see who can go the lowest and still make a profit.
Begun, the price wars have
Joe, you were right . And there's no cure for this.
Oh and Jacque, I am sorry to burst your bubble but we never sold HAC's on market.
I see. I will have to report your under the table dealings to the Matari Revenue & Customs Service then.
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Aikudos En'Fellamen
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Posted - 2005.08.18 15:13:00 -
[10]
I love Khatred and co for not trying to make the biggest profit possible, and I'm really in awe that they actually the decency to sell do this.
I've bought several ships from them, and been more than happy to lose them in PvP, because I don't have to pay 25m for the next enyo I lose.
Good luck with your new website, and I'll be right there to buy from you again
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Aikudos En'Fellamen |
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Count TaSessine
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Posted - 2005.08.18 16:28:00 -
[11]
Me too. Khatred is a visionary businessman.
And I'm thrilled to see the Heimatar market get all this attention from you folks.
Chairman, ISS
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Caeden Nicomachean
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Posted - 2005.08.18 16:36:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Count TaSessine
Me too. Khatred is a visionary businessman.
And I'm thrilled to see the Heimatar market get all this attention from you folks.
I'd love to see Pator displace Jita, just on principle  If he sells straight to market at all, the T2 module market in the area would sure flourish.
Unless he starts in on those bpos too
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Zaldiri
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Posted - 2005.08.18 19:06:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Krashtest
If he chooses to not get locked into a long term high volume deal, and only sells on market , then there is no worry.
Sadly not, as soon as people realise what hes doing, big corps will snap up the sheap ships as soon as they go on sale and resell them. It happend before with someon trying to sell cap rechargers 2s.
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Admiral of King Frieza's Super Saiyan fleet.
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Lacero Callrisian
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Posted - 2005.08.18 20:30:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Khatred
I'll take the PR from here :
Lacero: Transport Ships are Occator,Impel, Mastodon and Bustard while Crane and the others are Blockade Runners, thus listed as such in my bio . And yes, 50 mil is the usual price for a Bustard nowdays but all 4 transport ships cost about the same to manufacture.
oh I see now, yes that makes sense. Theres someone undercutting you on Cranes, but I'm sure you've seen that already.
As for them costing the same to build... wow yeah. We've been making Bustards and Impels for ages now and I just assumed we charged differently because of cost to build. Wow. I feel kinda dumb but thanks for letting me know :)
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Khatred
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Posted - 2005.08.18 22:20:00 -
[15]
People, understand once and for all. We are not running for the "Saints of the year" title but THERE WILL BE NO SALES ON MARKET.
We will sell only from our webshop and there will be limits like 1 HAC / person / day. And no, we won't sell to alts.
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Acwron
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Posted - 2005.08.19 00:54:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Acwron on 19/08/2005 00:54:46
Well I think the really interesting question is: Were did the money for the T2 ship BPOs come from? (probably at least 100b).
It's not like that the money suddendly appeared in their wallets.
PS: though I gotta admit the cheap T2 ships are nice :)
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Summersnow
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Posted - 2005.08.19 12:35:00 -
[17]
Whatever his motivation the man is doing a lot to make the game more enjoyable for people.
Thats a good thing.
Having affordable ship replacements available *might* also tempt more people to give low sec & 0.0 a try which is also a good thing.
I'm just hoping I can scarf up enough to get a munin, zealot & enyo ( none of which I can fly yet lol ) before the waiting list gets too long :-p
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Saerid
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Posted - 2005.08.19 14:11:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Saerid on 19/08/2005 14:12:53
What I'm mostly interested in is what the Lacuna Viators T2 pricing is going to do for smaller T2 producers. I'd hazard a guess their production costs per unit are significantly higher than LV's.
Ie. will the guy with the lone Taranis or Enyo print bother producing for 1 mil profit per ship, for example? Or just relocate, of course.
Comes down to demand elasticity by and large, I'd guess Lacuna Viators will end up increasing the T2 customer base on the whole with it. The big question would be reselling, the supply of ships being limited as it is I'd expect HACs for one end up being big reseller items. Could be the start of general downward move for interceptors and AFs though , if LV can cover enough of the demand.
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Summersnow
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Posted - 2005.08.19 14:31:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Saerid
Edited by: Saerid on 19/08/2005 14:12:53
What I'm mostly interested in is what the Lacuna Viators T2 pricing is going to do for smaller T2 producers. I'd hazard a guess their production costs per unit are significantly higher than LV's.
Ie. will the guy with the lone Taranis or Enyo print bother producing for 1 mil profit per ship, for example? Or just relocate, of course.
I do not beleive LV can produce enough to meet demand on a long term basis, though I'd love to see them prove me wrong :-)
As such the people in question will always have a market for the impatient & the wealthy.
pator is a long way from where I run missions and I can imagine a time coming where an extra 10 mil to have a replacement enyo to finish a mission I just got blowed up in NOW rather then after the mission expires wouldn't phase me at all.
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Bobby Wilson
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Posted - 2005.08.19 19:23:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Bobby Wilson on 19/08/2005 19:24:01
When he went on that BPO buying spree, I honestly thought the stated goal of reducing tech II ship costs was PR, and that the final pricing would be incredibly mercenary. I stand correct, my hat is off to you and OFC I'm going to get registered with that webbie right away :P
BW
Edit: er, is there a link?
Originally by: Mistress D'Malice
POS outputs where fine...its the fuel that needed the help.
Originally by: Nyxus
A Vagabond or Deimos is like a rabid wolverine and the web is your arm holding it away f |
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Kwisat Haderach
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Posted - 2005.08.19 19:42:00 -
[21]
Thank you all for your comments and/or kind words.
To be honest after browsing the forums for the past days (and especially the General Discussion) I was quite inclined to stop all this, throw the ships on the market for higher prices and be done with it. Unfortunatly most of the population that lurks the forums seriously lack common sense, some even lack intelligence. Looking at it as a big picture is like looking at a crowd of whining fools with no clues.
As some stated before, I really hope that those who post on forums are not representative for the Eve player base.
With only few days left before the launch of our shop, I hope people will try to respect our selling rules.
Life is a joke, but I don't feel like laughing |
Pallas Athene
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Posted - 2005.08.19 22:05:00 -
[22]
I would like to pay tribute to LV .
The T2 market, the EVE industry as a whole needs more visionary corporations like them.
N.A.G.A Website
I make you a Prince - promise |
Summersnow
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Posted - 2005.08.19 22:51:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Kwisat Haderach
I hope people will try to respect our selling rules.
speaking of which, I wanted to ask you about one of the rules you used to have, the "no alts" which I assume yer keeping.
What exactly do you consider an alt?
I run three accounts atm.
The munion I want is for this toon, the zealot is also for this toon, but would be loaned to my second account to help on extravaganza's until I skillup to run a zealot ( dratted 21 day cruiser V skill ).
I want to buy them now cause I honestly expect yer gonna have more demand then supply pretty quick :-p.
does that break the rules?
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Jacque Custeau
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Posted - 2005.08.20 13:54:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Jacque Custeau on 20/08/2005 13:55:25
Originally by: Pallas Athene
I would like to pay tribute to LV .
The T2 market, the EVE industry as a whole needs more visionary corporations like them.
LV are free to do with their bpo's as they please, but I really don't see how this can be described as visionary or as an act of charity.
LV obviously have a lot of bpo's to draw revenue from, so even with these prices they make a lot of money. Most of the T2 manufacturers out there, like myself, only have one or two bpo's to draw revenue from, and most of them are not sexy bpo's like the vagabond, diemos, cap recharger II...etc. The weekly profit I make is no different from a person who npc's (probably less). We have to choose our prices carefully to properly utilize what little we have.
This is a traditional big business/small business scenario. Props to them for providing a better service, it doesnt make the rest of us evil profiteers. Sure I have made money, but so have the people who supplied me. I have thrown a free bpc or free ship at them once in a while as a show of appreciation.
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Riggwelter
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Posted - 2005.08.20 15:55:00 -
[25]
Interesting concept but one thing you may be overlooking is that tech 2 producers unless there completely crazy price their mods and ships so they sell relatively quickly after their built. This it is the market that decides what the price is. It is not what they are prepared to sell at the sets the price but what people are willing to pay.
You may change this perception and people may well pay less in the future. You will however have a great deal of difficulty in changing anything in the supply demand realtionships which has the majority impact in determing the prices in the tech 2 market.
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Khatred
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Posted - 2005.08.20 17:48:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Riggwelter
Interesting concept but one thing you may be overlooking is that tech 2 producers unless there completely crazy price their mods and ships so they sell relatively quickly after their built. This it is the market that decides what the price is. It is not what they are prepared to sell at the sets the price but what people are willing to pay.
You may change this perception and people may well pay less in the future. You will however have a great deal of difficulty in changing anything in the supply demand realtionships which has the majority impact in determing the prices in the tech 2 market.
The whole point was that we don't want to change anything, just do our thing
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Bertie
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Posted - 2005.08.21 11:13:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Khatred
The whole point was that we don't want to change anything, just do our thing
Do your thing guys, who the hell cares what others think, it's your game time you've invested to get here, now do what you want with it
And good luck! It's gonna be interesting to watch.
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Kasibee'an
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Posted - 2005.08.23 02:26:00 -
[28]
Typically I seem to have missed out on this by a matter of a couple of days according to the website. Will you be selling another batch of ships anytime soon?
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Taketa De
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Posted - 2005.08.23 13:44:00 -
[29]
Actually, where is their web site? I've been waiting for them to post a link here for a while now, but either I am too blind to spot it or they posted it somewhere else.
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Rthor
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Posted - 2005.08.23 22:57:00 -
[30]
I read the rules on your website and it looks like it will be impossible for you to dominate the whole market because you know the rules are kind of insulting to people who have any pride so you will only dominate the market for tech2 ships for people without pride.
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