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Burnhard Brutor	Posted - 2005.08.19 09:03:00 - [61] Originally by: Hamatitio Please, post your arguments? other than "Omg and then n3rf teh tech 2 gear, i l00ze s0 mooch when i d!3" kay, lets go right back to the start. What exactly is your beef with insurance? Forget all the other stuff about n00bs in Apoc's, mining beams, Tech II and all that. Please explain, first up, why insuring over 3 months for 30 million is bad? Once we establish this, we can work on all the other arguments.
Hamatitio	Posted - 2005.08.19 09:10:00 - [62] Originally by: Burnhard Brutor Originally by: Hamatitio Please, post your arguments? other than "Omg and then n3rf teh tech 2 gear, i l00ze s0 mooch when i d!3" kay, lets go right back to the start. What exactly is your beef with insurance? Forget all the other stuff about n00bs in Apoc's, mining beams, Tech II and all that. Please explain, first up, why insuring over 3 months for 30 million is bad? Once we establish this, we can work on all the other arguments. You don't lose enough from a battleship loss. You can war dec a corp, kill 80 battleships, and they will be in 80 more within 2 days. ------ Ham a Tee Tee Oh
Catori Fala	Posted - 2005.08.19 09:26:00 - [63] Seems to me that the only reason you ***** about other people having it too easy is because you dont find what you do (war deccing corps and putting them out of action) easy enough.
Aeya	Posted - 2005.08.19 09:27:00 - [64] Edited by: Aeya on 19/08/2005 09:28:10 The point is that there is too much money and skill times differences between old and new players and no way to reduce them. I think that insurance should be only for the new players,no insurance for pk players for example
Hamatitio	Posted - 2005.08.19 09:28:00 - [65] Edited by: Hamatitio on 19/08/2005 09:28:45 Originally by: Aeya The point is that there is too much money and skill times differences between old and new players and no way to reduce them. I think that insurance should me only for the new players,no insurance for pk players for example I like that. If I didn't have enough money for a new battleship, would I fly my gankathron? NO! I would fly a frigate, or a cruiser... I would not lose the urge to pvp, maybe there are people different form me though... ------ Ham a Tee Tee Oh
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2005.08.19 09:29:00 - [66] Let's say that we remove insurance. People have predicted this will create a sudden swathe of people using cruisers rather than battleships, right? I don't see how that will solve any problems because losing a cruiser costs you even less isk than losing a battleship. LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Avon	Posted - 2005.08.19 09:32:00 - [67] Originally by: Joshua Calvert Let's say that we remove insurance. People have predicted this will create a sudden swathe of people using cruisers rather than battleships, right? I don't see how that will solve any problems because losing a cruiser costs you even less isk than losing a battleship. What are you going to lose the cruiser to? ______________________________________________ Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay.
Burnhard Brutor	Posted - 2005.08.19 09:33:00 - [68] Originally by: Hamatitio Originally by: Burnhard Brutor Originally by: Hamatitio Please, post your arguments? other than "Omg and then n3rf teh tech 2 gear, i l00ze s0 mooch when i d!3" kay, lets go right back to the start. What exactly is your beef with insurance? Forget all the other stuff about n00bs in Apoc's, mining beams, Tech II and all that. Please explain, first up, why insuring over 3 months for 30 million is bad? Once we establish this, we can work on all the other arguments. You don't lose enough from a battleship loss. You can war dec a corp, kill 80 battleships, and they will be in 80 more within 2 days. Okay, now lets look and see what happens when you reduce insurance or spread it over 3 weeks instead of 3 months. Those people you are declaring against will no longer fly them, plain and simple, because they don't want to lose them. So, you'll all be playing in Frigates and Cruisers - if you are engaged at all. Now, your original requirement, that you can't hurt a corp financially by killing it's battleships is still not solved by gimping insurance. The only thing you've done is ensure battleships aren't used much in PvP. Now whether or not thats a good thing is purely an aesthetic, subjective judgement. What you will be doing though, is creating another "implants" situation - where people still want to own these things but will go out of their way to avoid risking them in PvP with other players.
Hamatitio	Posted - 2005.08.19 09:53:00 - [69] Less battleships in space? Fleets composed of more than just 40 battleships? holy ****, the game will be how it was meant to be. ------ Ham a Tee Tee Oh
Hamatitio	Posted - 2005.08.19 09:53:00 - [70] BTW I can argue with ignorance MUCH longer than you can spout off random things at me. Ill be back in ~ 9 hours, sleepy time. ------ Ham a Tee Tee Oh
Kar Brogan	Posted - 2005.08.19 09:58:00 - [71] Edited by: Kar Brogan on 19/08/2005 09:58:24 Originally by: Hamatitio BTW I can argue with ignorance MUCH longer than you can spout off random things at me. Sausages
Hamatitio	Posted - 2005.08.19 10:00:00 - [72] Originally by: Burnhard Brutor Originally by: Hamatitio Originally by: Burnhard Brutor Originally by: Hamatitio Please, post your arguments? other than "Omg and then n3rf teh tech 2 gear, i l00ze s0 mooch when i d!3" kay, lets go right back to the start. What exactly is your beef with insurance? Forget all the other stuff about n00bs in Apoc's, mining beams, Tech II and all that. Please explain, first up, why insuring over 3 months for 30 million is bad? Once we establish this, we can work on all the other arguments. You don't lose enough from a battleship loss. You can war dec a corp, kill 80 battleships, and they will be in 80 more within 2 days. Okay, now lets look and see what happens when you reduce insurance or spread it over 3 weeks instead of 3 months. Those people you are declaring against will no longer fly them, plain and simple, because they don't want to lose them. So, you'll all be playing in Frigates and Cruisers - if you are engaged at all. Now, your original requirement, that you can't hurt a corp financially by killing it's battleships is still not solved by gimping insurance. The only thing you've done is ensure battleships aren't used much in PvP. Now whether or not thats a good thing is purely an aesthetic, subjective judgement. What you will be doing though, is creating another "implants" situation - where people still want to own these things but will go out of their way to avoid risking them in PvP with other players. I am not war deccing anyone. I am saying, theoretically, that there is not much risk to flying a battleship in PvP, due to insurance, and that, if someone can not afford to lose it, they would fly a different ship in PvP, rather than avoiding PvP altogether. I want to see other ships in EVE have their own special place in the game, rather than seeing who can get their damage mod and Rof better than someone else. I'd like to see fleets of 3-5 battleships, 10 cruisers and ~ 20 frigates, rather than 35 battleships Insta-popping eachother. But you know, even with 3 week insurance, people still PvP in battleships. I dont know if you were around when insurance was 3 weeks, but there was NOT a lack of targets. ------ Ham a Tee Tee Oh
Jor Brogan	Posted - 2005.08.19 10:09:00 - [73] But seriously. I totaly agree with reducing insurance time down to 2 or 3 weeks. This WOULD affect me.At the moment sustainable PvP is in a battlecruiser (mainly due to CEO responsibilities eating into my isk making time), with a reduction in insurance time sustainable PvP for me would likely drop down to cruisers. This, however, would be fine as many would be in the same boat. A little bit more cruiser on cruiser action is needed to spice things up.
Burnhard Brutor	Posted - 2005.08.19 10:10:00 - [74] Originally by: Hamatitio ... a lot to quote ... Okay, well why don't you start a corp and create a fleet with 5 battleships, 10 cruisers and 20 frigates and go and pwn everyone? It seems to me, that insurance isn't the problem here. The problem is that battleships are the swiss army knife of Eve. I use mine for mining low end minerals, mining high end minerals, NPC'ing, Combat Agent Missions, PvP, transporting high value goods, etc. Now, I've got one battleship, rather than 5 different ships spread all over, specialised for one particular thing. Sure, if I want to max out whatever I'm doing there is probably a specialised craft for doing it, but my battleship allows me to do lots of different kinds of stuff without worrying about all that. It's just AMAZINGLY convenient. So, before asking for insurance nerf, remember that battleships in Eve aren't just for fighting. It's called a battleship, but it should really have a different name.
Kar Brogan	Posted - 2005.08.19 10:10:00 - [75] gah, my younger alt damn him he wants atention
ElectroSister4	Posted - 2005.08.19 10:13:00 - [76] Originally by: Kar Brogan Edited by: Kar Brogan on 19/08/2005 09:58:24 Originally by: Hamatitio BTW I can argue with ignorance MUCH longer than you can spout off random things at me. Sausages Klevva If you want to pvp without risks, start a wow account --
Burnhard Brutor	Posted - 2005.08.19 10:29:00 - [77] Originally by: Jor Brogan But seriously. I totaly agree with reducing insurance time down to 2 or 3 weeks. This WOULD affect me.At the moment sustainable PvP is in a battlecruiser (mainly due to CEO responsibilities eating into my isk making time), with a reduction in insurance time sustainable PvP for me would likely drop down to cruisers. This, however, would be fine as many would be in the same boat. A little bit more cruiser on cruiser action is needed to spice things up. How does that work? If I know you guys love your cruisers, me and my chums will show up in our uninsured battleships and take you out with little risk to ourselves. Nerfing insurance won't make cruiser v cruiser more likely it'll just means I'll wait until you are in your cruiser before I tackle you in my battleship. Honestly, I'm sure CCP have run some numbers on this one. Increasing insurance probably increases PvP interactions of all kinds. Why else would they have gone right up from 3 weeks to 3 months?
Avon	Posted - 2005.08.19 10:34:00 - [78] Originally by: Burnhard Brutor Why else would they have gone right up from 3 weeks to 3 months? Because isk used to be hard to earn. ______________________________________________ Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay.
Burnhard Brutor	Posted - 2005.08.19 10:42:00 - [79] Originally by: Avon Originally by: Burnhard Brutor Why else would they have gone right up from 3 weeks to 3 months? Because isk used to be hard to earn. That is a circular argument. I'm earning more, but I'm buying more expensive mods, which aren't insured at all.
ElectroSister4	Posted - 2005.08.19 10:55:00 - [80] Originally by: Burnhard Brutor How does that work? If I know you guys love your cruisers, me and my chums will show up in our uninsured battleships and take you out with little risk to ourselves. Nerfing insurance won't make cruiser v cruiser more likely it'll just means I'll wait until you are in your cruiser before I tackle you in my battleship. You and your shrimps are welcome to the north and test your plan. Originally by: Burnhard Brutor Honestly, I'm sure CCP have run some numbers on this one. Increasing insurance probably increases PvP interactions of all kinds. Why else would they have gone right up from 3 weeks to 3 months? The numbers CCP see are the dollar signes in their bank accounts. Carebears like you ruin the game by sending millions of carebear wishes. Like raising insurance time for example so you can sit in your apoc mining 23 hours a day while writing poems in corp chat. It stinks when people try to change a true pvp game to a pve game/mining simulator. I bet you all my isks that when CCP started this game their vision was something other then the fact what the game became. --
Burnhard Brutor	Posted - 2005.08.19 11:15:00 - [81] Originally by: ElectroSister4 Originally by: Burnhard Brutor How does that work? If I know you guys love your cruisers, me and my chums will show up in our uninsured battleships and take you out with little risk to ourselves. Nerfing insurance won't make cruiser v cruiser more likely it'll just means I'll wait until you are in your cruiser before I tackle you in my battleship. You and your shrimps are welcome to the north and test your plan. Originally by: Burnhard Brutor Honestly, I'm sure CCP have run some numbers on this one. Increasing insurance probably increases PvP interactions of all kinds. Why else would they have gone right up from 3 weeks to 3 months? The numbers CCP see are the dollar signes in their bank accounts. Carebears like you ruin the game by sending millions of carebear wishes. Like raising insurance time for example so you can sit in your apoc mining 23 hours a day while writing poems in corp chat. It stinks when people try to change a true pvp game to a pve game/mining simulator. I bet you all my isks that when CCP started this game their vision was something other then the fact what the game became. Now you are being a **** as I was being quite reasonable with my thoughts and you resolve to start flaming because you can't pwn the argument. Here's the deal: you don't like it that someone can stick their middle finger up at you because they have insurance. Even if you destroy their battleship, they don't care. You want to be able to do real harm to someone by shooting them. Perhaps even you want to "bomb them back to the stoneage" - I suppose you'd also be happy if you pwned them out of the game too. Now, you are wrong for the following reasons: (1) only n00bs have ships with basic modules on which aren't worth anything, (2) more experienced players in insured battleships usually have spent more on mods [I personally have about the same value of mods on my Apoc as the Apoc is worth], the mods aren't insured. (3) It was not the intention of CCP to make Counter Strike in Space. (4) Loss is real and much more severe in Eve than it is in any other MMORPG already. (5) You aren't the only one paying your subs to CCP. Different players want different things out of the game and CCP tries to balance all of those together in order to stay in business and keep the game more or less playable for everyone. It is fair to say, that the insurance balance is about right for most people in Eve at the moment.
R3dSh1ft	Posted - 2005.08.19 11:17:00 - [82] I agree with the OP, for those using their ships consistently in PvP its rare to even reach a month let alone 3 before you claim that insurance ;) The problem I see however with a lot of these ideas that increase cost, skill training needed and complexity of the game, is that they make it ever increasingly difficult for the new and/or casual players to really get involved. Just think on this before proposing such a radical change. Perhaps instead of decreasing the length of a contract, increase the cost? That would balance out the ISK involved without so much of an impact on new players. Actually I would think insurance needs an overhaul at some point, but there are more important issues to be dealt with first, some additions to insurance could be: 1. Insurance of modules (tech 1/2 but not named) - this would be difficult to implement as balancing insurance cost based on market value could lead to (more) fraud and setting the data manually would be too clumsy. 2. Insurance of Tech2 ships for a reasonable payout rather than tech1 payout :) 3. Player-run insurance schemes based on the above (perhaps this could be implemented along with the contract system that is in the pipeline currently) P.S. Lets restore this thread to a reasoned debate and stop the flaming, thx R3dSh1ft, I want the same thing as every other player in EVE; fame and fortune
ElectroSister4	Posted - 2005.08.19 11:41:00 - [83] Originally by: Burnhard Brutor Originally by: ElectroSister4 Originally by: Burnhard Brutor How does that work? If I know you guys love your cruisers, me and my chums will show up in our uninsured battleships and take you out with little risk to ourselves. Nerfing insurance won't make cruiser v cruiser more likely it'll just means I'll wait until you are in your cruiser before I tackle you in my battleship. You and your shrimps are welcome to the north and test your plan. Originally by: Burnhard Brutor Honestly, I'm sure CCP have run some numbers on this one. Increasing insurance probably increases PvP interactions of all kinds. Why else would they have gone right up from 3 weeks to 3 months? The numbers CCP see are the dollar signes in their bank accounts. Carebears like you ruin the game by sending millions of carebear wishes. Like raising insurance time for example so you can sit in your apoc mining 23 hours a day while writing poems in corp chat. It stinks when people try to change a true pvp game to a pve game/mining simulator. I bet you all my isks that when CCP started this game their vision was something other then the fact what the game became. Now you are being a **** as I was being quite reasonable with my thoughts and you resolve to start flaming because you can't pwn the argument. Here's the deal: you don't like it that someone can stick their middle finger up at you because they have insurance. Even if you destroy their battleship, they don't care. You want to be able to do real harm to someone by shooting them. Perhaps even you want to "bomb them back to the stoneage" - I suppose you'd also be happy if you pwned them out of the game too. Now, you are wrong for the following reasons: (1) only n00bs have ships with basic modules on which aren't worth anything, (2) more experienced players in insured battleships usually have spent more on mods [I personally have about the same value of mods on my Apoc as the Apoc is worth], the mods aren't insured. (3) It was not the intention of CCP to make Counter Strike in Space. (4) Loss is real and much more severe in Eve than it is in any other MMORPG already. (5) You aren't the only one paying your subs to CCP. Different players want different things out of the game and CCP tries to balance all of those together in order to stay in business and keep the game more or less playable for everyone. It is fair to say, that the insurance balance is about right for most people in Eve at the moment. Im flaming cos im tired of seeing the non pvpers gets all their wishes through. And it doesnt seem to matter much what the rest of us want. I guess you are many more playing game not searching for targets 90% of the time. Cry Im playing this game for the fact i get a little rush of destroying other people ships. Finding out new tactics to fight and so on may be just as complicated (if not more) as anything else. It sure is more to pvp in eve then pressing a mouse button, like Counter-Strike. I dont stand sitting in a belt mining or npcing.. its not my thing. For people like the ones in the corp im in the game has been nerfed over and over. After all there are security status on systems. If you want to take zero risk then stay in above 0.4 and do whatever you do. If you on the other hand want a piece of the beautiful stuffs in 0.0 you have to take a risk. Losing 30m in insurance for a destroyed battleship is not enough. Its a p1ss in the sea tbh. --
MaiLina KaTar	Posted - 2005.08.19 11:48:00 - [84] In my opinion insurance is fine. I stand to loose more than 80 million isk when my battleship goes pop. I think this is more than enough. Mai's Idealog
Kar Brogan	Posted - 2005.08.19 11:52:00 - [85] Originally by: ElectroSister4 Originally by: Kar Brogan Edited by: Kar Brogan on 19/08/2005 09:58:24 Originally by: Hamatitio BTW I can argue with ignorance MUCH longer than you can spout off random things at me. Sausages Klevva If you want to pvp without risks, start a wow account If you want more people to support your idea, dont attack the few that already do (granted with a cheep humor shot first) read ALL of the kar brogan/jor brogan posts
Burnhard Brutor	Posted - 2005.08.19 11:54:00 - [86] Originally by: ElectroSister4 Losing 30m in insurance for a destroyed battleship is not enough. Its a p1ss in the sea tbh. I think you guys are blind. You can't see anything other than 30m. Put it this way: my apoc costs me 250m ISK. 120m for the ship, 100m for the mods and 30m for the insurance. Now, when it gets popped, ~120m is returned to my account. Please tell me more about p1ss in the sea.
ElectroSister4	Posted - 2005.08.19 12:02:00 - [87] Originally by: Burnhard Brutor Originally by: ElectroSister4 Losing 30m in insurance for a destroyed battleship is not enough. Its a p1ss in the sea tbh. I think you guys are blind. You can't see anything other than 30m. Put it this way: my apoc costs me 250m ISK. 120m for the ship, 100m for the mods and 30m for the insurance. Now, when it gets popped, ~120m is returned to my account. Please tell me more about p1ss in the sea. Yea yea.. i made my point and thats how i think about the whole insurance thing. Thank you for forum w***ing with me --
Palu Whoda	Posted - 2005.08.19 12:17:00 - [88] I also remember the old insurance days. I don't get it. Who cares what happens in real life insurance companies. This is a game and the insurance thingy is fine as it gives the comfy blanket for people to explore 0.0 which is what is needed. Though you are entitled to your opinion. Regards Palu Curry Magi
ponieus	Posted - 2005.08.19 13:42:00 - [89] Originally by: Hamatitio There is absolutely NO risk to flyin a battleship. umm it costs me about 60-80mill to loose a bs and thats not even replacing the ship.. How is that no risk??.. 60 to 80 mill is alot of isk to me to loose in one ship. But I chance it everyday cauase I love to pvp and honestly these days if you dont bring a BS to a fight your leaving in a pod..
Thyro	Posted - 2005.08.19 13:57:00 - [90] Edited by: Thyro on 19/08/2005 13:58:35 Another player with an existential problem where does not exist any issues. if you consider NO risk losing a BS might be because you are a member of RISK. Anyway if there is no risk losing a BS because the insurace (full premium) almost pays it back then go back to make some calcs before posting this kind of posts. 1) Insurance (fully) does not cover BS at current market prices 2) Insurance does not cover T2 ship prices 3) Insurance does not cover modules or cargo lost. 4) Insurance does not cover eventually loss of clone either implants. Therefore what is wrong with that? Well perhaps is the case, that insurance should cover all the above. But that would be against that you want isn't! So if nothing is wrong with present insurance. Because there are ALWAYS a RISK associated to the loss of a ship. Whats your point in rasing issues where there are no issues! Anyway your point is not a good one.

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