I have nothing against those PVP'ers that desire to enjoy their trade, but lowsec and nulsec are the place for this.

Players that get their jolly's off destroying 700mil orcas or other indy ships in hi sec for absolutely no reason clearly have run out of other ways to enjoy the game and it really pisses a lot of other indy players off.

There needs to be some form of fair play or security expected within hisec.

All those players that don't care enough have no concept of fair play, these are probably the same type of people that in real life have no lives and possibly had mommy or daddy issues growing up.

This game should be enjoyable for everyone not exploited by video game bullies.

i agree with this concept 100%, I have nothing against those PVP'ers that desire to enjoy their trade, but lowsec and nulsec are the place for this. Players that get their jolly's off destroying 700mil orcas or other indy ships in hi sec for absolutely no reason clearly have run out of other ways to enjoy the game and it really pisses a lot of other indy players off. There needs to be some form of fair play or security expected within hisec. All those players that don't care enough have no concept of fair play, these are probably the same type of people that in real life have no lives and possibly had mommy or daddy issues growing up. This game should be enjoyable for everyone not exploited by video game bullies.

Paper thin...those fits back up stream were NOT paper thin...they had more tank that alot of combat ships FFS.

http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/engagement.php?id=19043594 (and no the orca pilot wasn't at war as he was in an NPC corp)

God people :) it's just a metaphorical expression. Your mileage may and will always vary. Nonetheless, clearly, Industrial Ships are quite low on HP vs most combat ships. Hulks of course can tank much longer, yadda yadda.
But it is just so that in 0.0, if a hulk gets tackled, it is pretty much a free killmail. The idea was to have a better balance in hp so that the hulk in distress could hold out for quite some time so that it could call friends. It just happens to be that each situation is unique and different and not same. but I won't go into details on that.

Yeah, I hear ya. I've changed now too. The only thing is you lose even more ore volume given the lower bonuses, even when compared to a hard fitted Hulk. No point in having Hulks if you can't fly them in highsec.

The subject says it all. Wholesale ganking of mining barges in highsec has picked up again.

Please back up this statement with one shred of proof, otherwise you just wasted your time writing a load of ignorant nonsense.

Bearing in mind that CCP, who have all the figures and proof, have declared miner ganking to be at an all time low.

Even if it has, whats the problem?

As the op found out when he actually did a modicum of research, the vast majority of the ganks are on ships with nonexistant tanks. If you stupid enough to go mining with no tank, then you deserve to get blown up.

I have to say though, some gankers seem to be getting desperate. A buddy of mine created a new account the other day. Last night he was mining on said new account with a T1 fit Venture. In came a T2 fit Catalyst. Pop! My buddys in a pod. The funny thing is, he went and got his spare venture and looted the Catalyst for a profit. He lost a free venture with less than 100k fittings on it and gained 5m isk in modules and stuff from the wrecks!

Ganking may be on the rise, but it seems idiocy is too. Thats more worrying as theere are plenty of idiots already.

In reality suicide gankers are necessary for a thriving industry. In order for industrialists to make money ships must be destroyed, but that can't just be combat ships as mining ships will continue to out mine combat ships being destroyed. So to fix this mining ships need to be destroyed also and the best way to do this is suicide ganking.

Even if it has, whats the problem?

As the op found out when he actually did a modicum of research, the vast majority of the ganks are on ships with nonexistant tanks. If you stupid enough to go mining with no tank, then you deserve to get blown up.

I have to say though, some gankers seem to be getting desperate. A buddy of mine created a new account the other day. Last night he was mining on said new account with a T1 fit Venture. In came a T2 fit Catalyst. Pop! My buddys in a pod. The funny thing is, he went and got his spare venture and looted the Catalyst for a profit. He lost a free venture with less than 100k fittings on it and gained 5m isk in modules and stuff from the wrecks!

Ganking may be on the rise, but it seems idiocy is too. Thats more worrying as theere are plenty of idiots already.

trouble is, these fits work exactly the same way that a 1000 vs 1250 DPS BS does ... you can get that extra 25% "yield" (DPS) ... but it's going to seriously impact your tank*.

Let's down the list shall we?

1a. Yes, suicide ganking doesn't give out insurance payouts the way it used to. And it didn't slow down ganking the way many people thought it would... all it did was make gankers downgrade from Tornados/Talosi into Thrashers/Catalysts and use more numbers.

2a. As a ganker I can say that the killmail is only the "cherry on top." What we are actually after is either profit or rage. One can be guarded against (by making your ship unprofitable to gank) and the other simply happens from time to time (similar to the way we can be wiped out in low and null-sec).

3a and 4a. Did you know that many of us gankers are already below -5.0 security status and can be shot at anytime, anywhere, in any ship? For us, killrights are redundant and actually make many of us laugh.
And we would LOVE for people to come down to low-sec and try exacting revenge (we'd get more fights)... but... almost no one ever does (the ONLY time I ever saw someone TRY was a couple months ago... a miner we ganked was so blind with rage he came to our station and started shooting all of us... we scrammed him and let him shoot us for few minutes before cutting him loose out of pity).
Is this a failing of the system or of the players who have the killrights?

5a. Very few people actually consider the killing of newbie ships and shuttles to be something to chestbeat about... but killing expensive pods that were inside those ships and shuttles... that's a whole other story.

6a. See 3a and 4a. We already do look over our shoulder out of habit. If you did you would not have been ganked.


You misunderstand... I am the one "fighting back." Miners and industry people ply their trade and set prices that separate me from my hard earned ISK. Since I am terrible at mining and industry I use my combat abilities to "get even."

Why should it be harder for me to affect miners and industrialists in high-sec when they can easily affect me through the market?

nope, you just shield tank and get lots of dps and lots of tank.

next stupid comparison?

The solution to ganking is simple, tank your ships... there's a reason all those Industrial ships have tons of mid slots, it's so you can fit a big shield buffer tank. Now Mining Barges aren't the tankiest things around, but come on... a buffer tank will save you from 99.9% of gank attempts, as most gankers only get one or two volleys off before they go pop, at least in upper high-sec.

Long thread... The upshot is, High Sec is not safe and should never be outside of the sandbox. There is some great advice for any miner in this thread, including aligning, safes, tanking, standings and just generally not being AFK!

The old adage of "Only fly what you can afford to lose" is ubiquitous, so with that you have to run the numbers. How long have you flown your Hulk for? Have you mined enough to pay for it and then mined enough to buy spares? Granted losing your first Hulk while the paint is still wet is sad and pretty awful luck, but I'm pretty sure most Hulk pilots will have had their ship for sometime and used it to make more than enough ISK to pay for it and buy spares.

Miners are complacent, I know, I have a mining alt, they get to a system and stay there for weeks/months/years. New Eden is a big place, you should have at least 3 mining areas all kitted out with the ships and junk you need and JC around and avoid the usual ganking places. Sure this can be hard in the case of ice, being less abundant, but then the advice in the thread is paramount.

Keep your ears open, you can pretty much gauge the heat of an area by just sitting in your chosen system for a while and watching local chat. Miners love to whine about gankers and even name them, which you can then set to red and have even better intel before you move to the area.

To be on topic, I personally think the balance is right, sure the changes have buffed barges etc, but now there is a clear distinction for their roles. I wouldn't want to see the OP's changes if there are in the scope of saving miners. Its the cycle of life, ganking is part of EVE and feeds the supply/demand chain.

o/ Fly safe

High security, not total or perfect security.

It's purpose is to be safer than low and null, not safe.

Oh and you say you lost a Hulk to 2 destroyers. Saying it was fit for null, means nothing tbh. How was it fit exactly?

3) Change the kill rights so that they allow for more than just one ship destroyed. Most of these guys are flying around in T1 fitted destroyers that don't cost much. As already indicated, destroying one or two 5 million ISK ships doesn't make up for the destruction of one 200 million ISK ship. Perhaps the kill right would be satisfied once the value of the ganker's ships destroyed equals the value of the ship destroyed by the ganker (or when 30 days is up). In other words, if you had two gankers destroying a 200 million ISK Hulk, the kill rights would allow for the destruction of 100 million ISK worth of ships for each of the two gankers (200 million divided by two). The kill right would still expire after 30 days, but within that time period the kill right allows for the destruction of ships up to a total calculated by the value of the destroyed ship. If a 200 million ISK ship were destroyed by five gankers, it would be 40 million each. This would also mitigate people using alts to get rid of kill rights.

The subject says it all. Wholesale ganking of mining barges in highsec has picked up again. I had a Hulk fitted for nullsec successfully ganked by two destroyers in highsec. While poking around killmails, I found an orca that had been ganked in high sec by a gang of 24. Why is that a problem? It had less than 7 million ISK worth of cargo in it:

http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/engagement.php?id=19043594 (and no the orca pilot wasn't at war as he was in an NPC corp)

That's wholesale ganking for nothing except statistics boosting and that shouldn't be happening in highsec.

There needs to be a balance between those that like to destroy and those that like to create, or else one group will leave. Those that like to destroy have an enormous playground called lowsec and nullsec. Highsec is the playground of industry. I know of no changes that inhibit the destroyers from having a good time in their playground.

Kill rights are awesome, but they don't make up for getting back 45 million ISK from Platinum insurance (I got 65 million back from the insurance which cost 20 million) for a 200 million ISK ship (not including fittings). Especially since it probably cost the gankers less than 10 million ISK.

The last time this kind of behavor was happening, I cancelled the subscriptions on my two accounts for a year and half. And this time I haven't paid for 6 months in advance. I learned my lesson.


Here's some ideas on how to solve this:


1) My understanding is that insurance is no longer paid out for ganker's ships for attacks in high sec. That's a good step and I hope that hasn't changed.

2) Change the killmails for unauthorized ganks in highsec. Obviously, part of what these people are looking for is boosting their stats. Don't give them the stats. Only provide that ships were destroyed, who had their ships destroyed and who did the destroying (and the system). Don't provide information about what ships were destroyed or what was dropped. That way there's no stat boosting from easy targets in highsec.

3) Change the kill rights so that they allow for more than just one ship destroyed. Most of these guys are flying around in T1 fitted destroyers that don't cost much. As already indicated, destroying one or two 5 million ISK ships doesn't make up for the destruction of one 200 million ISK ship. Perhaps the kill right would be satisfied once the value of the ganker's ships destroyed equals the value of the ship destroyed by the ganker (or when 30 days is up). In other words, if you had two gankers destroying a 200 million ISK Hulk, the kill rights would allow for the destruction of 100 million ISK worth of ships for each of the two gankers (200 million divided by two). The kill right would still expire after 30 days, but within that time period the kill right allows for the destruction of ships up to a total calculated by the value of the destroyed ship. If a 200 million ISK ship were destroyed by five gankers, it would be 40 million each. This would also mitigate people using alts to get rid of kill rights.

4) The ganker can run around and gank people at will, but the ganked can only execute a kill right for 15 minutes at a time? The kill right should be able to be left on as long as the kill right remains available to the ganked, but the kill right can be turned on or off once every 30 minutes minutes (to prevent idiots from spamming it). In other words, the ganked can turn on the kill right and leave it on the entire remaining time the kill right provides if they so desire.

5) The destruction of a shuttle or newb ship should not qualify for the satisfaction of a kill right. Perhaps there should be a value limit under which the ship doesn't count? Of course, this could be ignored if #3 were implemented since the value is so small it wouldn't make a difference.

6) The email notification sent to the person on the other end of a kill right currently gives too much information. The only thing it should say is that the kill right has been activated. It shouldn't say that it's for everyone, for the corporation, or for a given individual. The ganker should be looking over their shoulder wondering where the attack is going to come from rather than potentially knowing and being able to look out for those hunting them.


I especially like #3. It brings some parity between the value of the ships being destroyed by the gankers and the ships that can be destroyed via kill rights.



P.S. I'm a long time player obviously using an alt to avoid the inevitable hatemail from cowardly whiners that like to destroy ships that can't fight back.